TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › Germany Intolerent of Scientology?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Germany Intolerent of Scientology?

post #1 of 83
12/23/08 at 10:29am
Thread Starter 
I don't understand the big hoop-la about the new Tom Cruise movie
Valkyrie which was filmed in Germany. Why are the Germans so down on
Tom Cruise? Because he is a Scientologist? That seems pretty intolerent IMO.

I'm not a member of Scientology but I just do not understand Germany's government being so hard nosed about his.

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=21382

http://www.movieweb.com/news/NErDVtuuyihXvt

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle5358878.ece

Does Germany not have freedom of religion in their country?
Reply
post #2 of 83
12/23/08 at 11:13am
There is supposed to be freedom of religion in North America too but if you scratch the veneer, you'll find a lot of ugly hatred and bigotry lurking with regard to Scientology (and other religions as well). We're just not as honest about how we feel.

How is it anyone's business who someone prays or worships to as long as they aren't twisting your arm to do the same?
Reply
post #3 of 83
12/23/08 at 11:19am
First of all, let's be honest: Scientology is not a religion in any true sense of the word. It may be a philosophy, and those who believe it may have a religious fervor about it, but I don't think anyone with a grip on reality would call it a religion, really.

That said, the problem with Scientology for many people is the way it denigrates both science AND any one else's religion. It behaves a lot more like a cult, with huge monetary demands on its members, than like any religion.
Reply
post #4 of 83
12/23/08 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
First of all, let's be honest: Scientology is not a religion in any true sense of the word. It may be a philosophy, and those who believe it may have a religious fervor about it, but I don't think anyone with a grip on reality would call it a religion, really.

That said, the problem with Scientology for many people is the way it denigrates both science AND any one else's religion. It behaves a lot more like a cult, with huge monetary demands on its members, than like any religion.
Isn't it still their own personal business if they wish to believe that philosophy and pay whatever monetary commitments are required. Who are we to dictate what they should believe or not believe, pay or not pay. I don't see any of them hurting you or me. There are lots of folks that don't believe in a religion per se - doesn't make them bad or that they should be ostracized by others.
Reply
post #5 of 83
12/23/08 at 11:54am
Germany tried for the second time last year to ban Scientology, and has had the group under surveillance for a very long time:
Germany moves to ban Scientology

The argument is that Scientology isn't a religion, and that its practices violate the Basic Law, i.e., are unconstitutional.
Germany's Battle Against Scientology

Quote:
Ulrike Sweden, a spokesperson for the Hamburg Ministry of Interior, which has taken the lead in the latest efforts, says the most significant change is a 2004 ruling by a Cologne judge in a case brought by Scientologists to end surveillance by state intelligence agencies. The judge ruled that the monitoring was warranted because the activities of the Scientologists were a threat to German constitutional protections, and in particular the right of Germans to exercise their political will, the right to equal treatment, and guarantees against bodily harm. (The judge ruled, among other things, that the group brainwashes members.) Says Sweden, "For the first time we had a judge, and not just rumors, stating that the group was dangerous." (Since 1995, the Church of Scientology has not enjoyed the legal protections accorded to religions in Germany, after a judge ruled that it was not a religion but a group "masquerading as a religion in order to make a profit.")
Emphasis added.

Religion: Tom Cruise and Scientology: Is Germany Intolerant gets into the whole long history of strife between Germany and Scientologists, and tries to explain it.
Quote:
Americans used to First Amendment religious and speech freedoms, even for unpopular views, forget that Germany is a democratic country with a past that has led it to set narrower limits on its citizens’ rights. When it comes to nationalistic excesses (read “extreme right, neo-Naziâ€) and dictatorial threats to democratic government (read “Scientologyâ€), Germany does not share American-style tolerance. It is illegal in Germany, for instance, to even simply display Nazi symbols. Additionally, the concept of separation of church and state is a foreign one in a country where the tax agency collects a “church tax“ (Kirchensteuer) for religious organizations.
Reply
post #6 of 83
12/23/08 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
There is supposed to be freedom of religion in North America too but if you scratch the veneer, you'll find a lot of ugly hatred and bigotry lurking with regard to Scientology (and other religions as well). We're just not as honest about how we feel.

How is it anyone's business who someone prays or worships to as long as they aren't twisting your arm to do the same?
I live by the motto "To each their own" and I let people live the way they want to.

However, that being said, so far as Scientology being a religion? I disagree. IMHO it's a cult not a religion. A religion worships a Deity. Scientologists believe that they will be picked up in a space ship by alien beings.
Reply
post #7 of 83
12/23/08 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post
I live by the motto "To each their own" and I let people live the way they want to.

However, that being said, so far as Scientology being a religion? I disagree. IMHO it's a cult not a religion. A religion worships a Deity. Scientologists believe that they will be picked up in a space ship by alien beings.
And who has the proof that this cannot or will not happen? How is worshipping a Deity that much different than worshipping aliens? Who has the vast knowledge to know that Deities are real and aliens are not? Do you? Any of us here? I certainly don't so I wouldn't dream of saying they are wrong and I'm right.
Reply
post #8 of 83
12/23/08 at 12:42pm
Sure they have freedom of religion. But they are not obligated to let any Tom, Dick or Harry to film a movie on a military base. I wonder how far a foreign national would get in the US if they put in a request to make a movie on a US military.

And just for the record, I don't consider Scientology a religion either.
Reply
post #9 of 83
12/23/08 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
Sure they have freedom of religion. But they are not obligated to let any Tom, Dick or Harry to film a movie on a military base. I wonder how far a foreign national would get in the US if they put in a request to make a movie on a US military.

And just for the record, I don't consider Scientology a religion either.
Ah - now to the heart of the matter. I do believe they have every right to deny filming on their military base. I am making a big assumption here, but I would imagine the German government is as anxious to cover up any hint or proof of aliens as the US government, so since Scientology is based on belief in aliens it only makes sense that they would deny them access to the base.
Reply
post #10 of 83
12/23/08 at 12:55pm
Thread Starter 
I am confused why a country would want to outlaw Scientology, they aren't violent or anarchists or any way, shape or form like Nazi's are they?


A tad off topic but since jcat mentioned it, I was under the impressions that there are still so-called Nazi's and skinheads in Germany.
Reply
post #11 of 83
12/23/08 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post

A tad off topic but since jcat mentioned it, I was under the impressions that there are still so-called Nazi's and skinheads in Germany.
I think you'll find a fair number of them in the US and Canada as well.
Reply
post #12 of 83
12/23/08 at 1:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I think you'll find a fair number of them in the US and Canada as well.

I'm sure there are, but that is not what I was discussing here.
Reply
post #13 of 83
12/23/08 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I'm sure there are, but that is not what I was discussing here.
I just figured that Germany having skin-heads and Nazi's was about as relevant to the Tom Cruise movie as the US and Canada having some was.
Reply
post #14 of 83
12/23/08 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I am confused why a country would want to outlaw Scientology, they aren't violent or anarchists or any way, shape or form like Nazi's are they?


A tad off topic but since jcat mentioned it, I was under the impressions that there are still so-called Nazi's and skinheads in Germany.
The articles I linked to explain that. The third article in particular gets into the massive opposition Scientologists faced here when they had the audacity to compare themselves with victims of the Holocaust.

Scientology allegedly doesn't allow people to freely leave the cult, which is why the länder (states) want it outlawed. Its recruiting methods ("Take a FREE personality test!) also aren't above board, and therefore considered a scam. I teach at a junior college, where some students are still minors. At one point, we had to get a restraining order against Scientology recruiters. I doubt that it's still in place, as we've moved, but they're asked to leave when they show up, and told the police will be called if they don't.

There are neo-Nazis/skinheads in Germany. Unlike in North America, they can be prosecuted for using swastikas, giving the Hitler salute, or spreading Nazi propaganda in print or music lyrics.
Reply
post #15 of 83
12/23/08 at 3:19pm
May be it is just me, but anything that starts out with, "Tom Cruise" is enough to turn me off. Then add on, "religion". What?

I personaly like Dylan better. (sarcasm)
Reply
post #16 of 83
12/23/08 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
The articles I linked to explain that. The third article in particular gets into the massive opposition Scientologists faced here when they had the audacity to compare themselves with victims of the Holocaust.

Scientology allegedly doesn't allow people to freely leave the cult, which is why the länder (states) want it outlawed. Its recruiting methods ("Take a FREE personality test!) also aren't above board, and therefore considered a scam. I teach at a junior college, where some students are still minors. At one point, we had to get a restraining order against Scientology recruiters. I doubt that it's still in place, as we've moved, but they're asked to leave when they show up, and told the police will be called if they don't.

There are neo-Nazis/skinheads in Germany. Unlike in North America, they can be prosecuted for using swastikas, giving the Hitler salute, or spreading Nazi propaganda in print or music lyrics.
I'd have to agree with the reasoning behind their protest in that case. IMO nobody should be pushing their "cult" or religion on anyone else by any means - fair or foul.
Reply
post #17 of 83
12/23/08 at 8:12pm
It's sounds intolerant to me as well, but; I've not studied Scientology other than reading news articles about supposed "ex-members". If the German courts have actually made a determination that recruitment is done by thought manipulation, then they are within their rights to forbid them. But then again, I've always believed that brainwashing and postnatal indoctrination into any religion are so similar as to differ only by semantics and acceptance.

But, it also makes sense in a way that they may be trying to hide evidence of alien visitations. Several of the more notable and widespread sightings have been in that region, and if you're trying to hide evidence of aliens, then having the disciples of aliens wandering around is probably a bad idea.
Reply
post #18 of 83
12/23/08 at 8:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
The articles I linked to explain that. The third article in particular gets into the massive opposition Scientologists faced here when they had the audacity to compare themselves with victims of the Holocaust.

Scientology allegedly doesn't allow people to freely leave the cult, which is why the länder (states) want it outlawed. Its recruiting methods ("Take a FREE personality test!) also aren't above board, and therefore considered a scam. I teach at a junior college, where some students are still minors. At one point, we had to get a restraining order against Scientology recruiters. I doubt that it's still in place, as we've moved, but they're asked to leave when they show up, and told the police will be called if they don't.

There are neo-Nazis/skinheads in Germany. Unlike in North America, they can be prosecuted for using swastikas, giving the Hitler salute, or spreading Nazi propaganda in print or music lyrics.
Does the LDS church or any other Christian denominations have missionaries in Germany Tricia? Would that be considered against the law?
Reply
post #19 of 83
12/23/08 at 8:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I just figured that Germany having skin-heads and Nazi's was about as relevant to the Tom Cruise movie as the US and Canada having some was.
I don't think I was the one that brought it up in this thread originally but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Tricia said there are none in Germany so, no worries.
Reply
post #20 of 83
12/23/08 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't think I was the one that brought it up in this thread originally but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Tricia said there are none in Germany so, no worries.
She said that there can skinheads and neos in Germany but they can be prosecuted for using the symbols of the regime and for spreading Nazi propaganda. Here in the US they are allowed more latitude but what they do can fall under the sometimes gray area of what is or isn't a hate crime in this country.

Personally, I feel that scientology is more of a philosophy than a religion, which may still be a stretch. Most "religious" philosophies tend to focus on spiritual and physical balance, not only in a person's personal life and interaction with others but also with their environment. Some good examples would Daoism/Taosim and Confucianism.
Reply
post #21 of 83
12/24/08 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I am confused why a country would want to outlaw Scientology, they aren't violent or anarchists or any way, shape or form like Nazi's are they?


A tad off topic but since jcat mentioned it, I was under the impressions that there are still so-called Nazi's and skinheads in Germany.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't think I was the one that brought it up in this thread originally but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Tricia said there are none in Germany so, no worries.
I beg to differ.
Reply
post #22 of 83
12/24/08 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Does the LDS church or any other Christian denominations have missionaries in Germany Tricia? Would that be considered against the law?
Sure they do, and a good number of members. They're recognized as religions/churches, whereas Scientology isn't. The difference is that the LDS, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, etc., are up front about who they are, and aren't bankrupting new members by selling them courses they supposedly can't live without.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
Anyway, Tricia said there are none in Germany so, no worries.
You misread my post. As a matter of fact, the police chief of Passau, Bavaria, just survived a right-wing assassination attempt:
Police Chief Long Reviled by NPD Leadership

Violent Neo-Nazis: Far Right is Well-Established in Bavaria
Quote:
Bavaria has a well-established neo-Nazi scene. The domestic intelligence service estimates that there are around 1,100 violent neo-Nazis in Bavaria and around 10,000 in Germany. In Passau alone, the number of far-right crimes doubled to 83 this year compared with 2007.
Reply
post #23 of 83
12/24/08 at 6:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I beg to differ.
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...62&postcount=5
Oh, sorry, I thought the first mention of Nazi's was in this post. It was a quote from an article. Does that count?

Can we both be right?
Reply
post #24 of 83
12/24/08 at 7:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...62&postcount=5
Oh, sorry, I thought the first mention of Nazi's was in this post. It was a quote from an article. Does that count?

Can we both be right?
Sure you can be right. I just couldn't find any reference to "skin-head" and the neo-Nazi was used just as an example so I didn't understand the significance of the question you posed. Guess I'm a bit dense this morning.
Reply
post #25 of 83
12/24/08 at 9:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
Sure they do, and a good number of members. They're recognized as religions/churches, whereas Scientology isn't. The difference is that the LDS, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, etc., are up front about who they are, and aren't bankrupting new members by selling them courses they supposedly can't live without.

I still don't understand the hatred towards the Scientologists by Germany.
"Bankrupting new member by selling them courses they supposedly can't live without" ?????? Doesn't Germany have scammers? In this country there are scammers galore, used car salesman, etc, etc, you know the old saying, "there is a sucker born every minute" if people want to spend their money on that stuff, isn't that their perogative? I think I am missing something here, I need to read all your links I guess. I just never thought that Scientology was dangerous.
Reply
post #26 of 83
12/25/08 at 6:07am
Scientology is an insidious scammer, in that it first makes sure that those who could help the members are discredited (it teaches that psychology, psychiatry, and any mental-affective drugs are wrong), then takes advantage of those who most need other help and those who are most vulnerable to their appeals, often literally bankrupting them and doing it knowingly.

Germany sees this sort of attack on the mentally vulnerable as criminal.

By the way, the fact that Tom Cruise is a willing participant in this scam says a lot about his general credibility.
Reply
post #27 of 83
12/25/08 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Scientology is an insidious scammer, in that it first makes sure that those who could help the members are discredited (it teaches that psychology, psychiatry, and any mental-affective drugs are wrong), then takes advantage of those who most need other help and those who are most vulnerable to their appeals, often literally bankrupting them and doing it knowingly.

Germany sees this sort of attack on the mentally vulnerable as criminal.

By the way, the fact that Tom Cruise is a willing participant in this scam says a lot about his general credibility.
I don't see folks running down John Travolta or his wife Kelly or any of the other high profile folks involved with Scientology. Why is Tom Cruise the bad guy? Are people not free to believe what they want anymore? Is Tom Cruise's belief in Scientology hurting anyone? Is the money he's giving his "church" taking it away from you or me? As for aliens, who is to say there are not aliens - can you? I can't because I don't honestly know so it would be actually highly arrogant on my part to emphatically state such a thing. I hope I'm more tolerant of other peoples and their beliefs to be that arrogant to poo-poo what they feel and believe.
Reply
post #28 of 83
12/25/08 at 10:22am
Yeah there are a lot of celeb's who believe in Scientology. So I don't get the Tom Cruise ban.

Is Scientology religion?I don't know and don't care the same way I don't care about Christianity. Pass the bucket around and they are all asking for money.

It's really why I don't care for religion at all. They all want something from you, whether you know it or not.
Reply
post #29 of 83
12/25/08 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breal76 View Post
Yeah there are a lot of celeb's who believe in Scientology. So I don't get the Tom Cruise ban.

Is Scientology religion?I don't know and don't care the same way I don't care about Christianity. Pass the bucket around and they are all asking for money.

It's really why I don't care for religion at all. They all want something from you, whether you know it or not.
Your post reminded me of a girl I work with. She is a member of a universally recognized Christian religion and each year they are expected to give money to their church. I'm not talking $50 here - I'm talking 4 digit figures and that is in addition to their weekly contributions. I couldn't believe my ears when she was telling me about this and how it took her awhile to convince her husband (who was not of the same faith) to accept this. That is extortion IMO. So I honestly don't see how Scientology requesting money from their members is any different except that they are not universally recognized as this girl's religion is.
Reply
post #30 of 83
12/25/08 at 6:15pm
Thread Starter 
I belong to a Christian mainstream church, Lutheran. No one has ever tried to force me to give any money at all. Ever.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: IMO: In My Opinion
TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › Germany Intolerent of Scientology?