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So tired of loose stool. Possible IBD, suggestions? Kind of long. - Page 2

post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandBlues View Post
Hi there - new to the forum - quick question???

Is the parasite you mention also called giardia? I've been breeding for 40 years (not a profession and not constantly - as my life permits) and I've have only once gone through a bad bout of persistent diarrhea. Of course I am always warning about diet changes and certain types of food - food quality - but I'm referring to a health issue - not a fishy food.

The bad bout occurred the 1st time we had more than one litter at a time - 13 kittens. We went through the gamut - every test and many treatments - it was definitely contagious. Our vet in the US worked at a shelter and always looked at health through the eyes of what shelter or feral kittens get - treated for street infections and parasites. Other consults with country vets centered around country problems - so if you have well water they think giardia - it's in the water.

Also the tests are very inaccurate. Depends of freshness of samples tested, labs used. Somethings can't been seen by a vet with a scope. Get a lot of false negatives and false positives. (I also have a lot of experience with super-bugs caused by antibiotics, like MRSA and C-DIF - drug resistant and reoccurring). Must get the right tests.

It seems everything depends on where and how you live and diet to a certain extent. But also being really careful - because every time we did something that worked - kittens stool got solid - all it took was forgetting one thing. For example we took to boiling water - but if kittens had access to a sink or tub and could get a drink...

I also found letting visitors handle the kittens before they were completely well was a mistake - their immune systems are weak and they'll catch a new infection. And respiratory infections will also cause bowl problems. We had to ask everyone to remove shoes and wash hands.

In the end flagil was the antibiotic which saved the day for us - but it's a really harsh drug that is known not to be used with any kind of liver disease - and never use for a long period. Flagil, like vancomycin bleaches the gut - kills everything (all infections and giardia) and then you have to build up the good flora again. But for an illness that kept going on and on - recontamination - we had to resort to it.

Eventually - get the cat on a really good diet - I only use foods that have the best (organic if possible) ingredients and ethical practices. If they won't eat what you cook try Royal Canin, Burns, Applaws, etc. - keep litters pristine and avoid all chemical additives.
In answer to your first question, no it is not Giardia, it may be mis-diagnosed as such.by a vet. If you follow the leads for research you will find all the info on it. Flagyl(Metronidazole) will not kill it but makes it temporarily better. Only Ronidazole can kill it and that should never be given without a positive test and under the strict guidance of a vet as there are potential side effects. The testing is specific PCR testing at a lab and the stool has different handling requirements than usual. It is becoming a problem in catterys and shelters, places where a lot of cats are housed and yes it is contagious. I suggest you read up on it on the sites that have been suggested, also take the info to your Vet as so many are not educated about this.

The second thing I would like to mention is that Flagyl(Metronidazole) does not "bleach" the gut and kill the good bacteria, this is a misconception I had also until my Vet had me research it. If you research Metronidazole, on thier website, it should tell you this. It can cause side effects especially over time, Vancomycin is seldom used here for most of the GI issues as there has been too much Vancomycin resistant bacteria issues. Metro is very effective for Clostridium diarrhea as well as other bacteria overgrowth which can be contagious and may be what you experienced. Hope this helped.
post #32 of 43
Thread Starter 
Sorry for not updating in a few days.

Brody definitely seems improved on the Prednisone, but he's still not completely normal. Ozzy is now also on Prednisone, and there has been some improvement (no more litter box walls covered in poop), but again, not normal.

We've decided that after the holidays, we'll get one of them tested for TF. Brody will be done with his Prednisone by then, and Ozzy will be almost finished. I think I've finally convinced my parents that they have pretty much every symptom for it. So we'll keep them on the Prednisone for now, since it seems to be helping. Even if it's just a 'mask' for the TF, at least it's giving them (and us) some relief from loose stools.

Will my vet need to call and get the PCR testing kit/pouch? I'm assuming it's not something most vets keep in their offices. I just want to be prepared when I do call and tell him I want to get one of them tested.

I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by kady05 View Post
Sorry for not updating in a few days.

Brody definitely seems improved on the Prednisone, but he's still not completely normal. Ozzy is now also on Prednisone, and there has been some improvement (no more litter box walls covered in poop), but again, not normal.

We've decided that after the holidays, we'll get one of them tested for TF. Brody will be done with his Prednisone by then, and Ozzy will be almost finished. I think I've finally convinced my parents that they have pretty much every symptom for it. So we'll keep them on the Prednisone for now, since it seems to be helping. Even if it's just a 'mask' for the TF, at least it's giving them (and us) some relief from loose stools.

Will my vet need to call and get the PCR testing kit/pouch? I'm assuming it's not something most vets keep in their offices. I just want to be prepared when I do call and tell him I want to get one of them tested.

I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
Oh I am so glad you are going to test. You may want to have your vet check on how long they need to be off the Pred before testing, she/he can check with Dr. Gookin. We even took all supplements away as no one knows what affects the testing or treating.
What your vet needs to test depends on how you decide to do it. The owners information sheet on Dr. Gookin's web site has all the instructions for both procedures, they need to be followed exactly. If you go with the pouches yes they need to be ordered and the instructions followed. If you can afford it the PCR at Dr. Gookin's lab is more reliable. Your vet would not have to have anything special for that but the handling and collecting of stool is very important. A false negative result is possible but a positive test is positive. If you need a link for Dr.Gookin's instructions go to Tamgirl99's post where she had the link and print it off for your vet. Good luck, I hope it goes well for you and the cats, please keep us posted.
post #34 of 43
Thread Starter 
I definitely want to do the PCR test; seems like it's the most accurate, etc. So basically, I'll just print out the submission sheet and give it to my vet and he does the rest?
post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by kady05 View Post
I definitely want to do the PCR test; seems like it's the most accurate, etc. So basically, I'll just print out the submission sheet and give it to my vet and he does the rest?
Yep! That's exactly what I did. Just make sure they read the requirements for storing the stool. Good luck and please keep us posted on the results!
post #36 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by kady05 View Post
I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
You might to introduce it to their diet slowly. I didn't with Coco and it was fine but others tell me that they had to add it slowly to keep the diarrhea from getting worst before it got better.
post #37 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
You might to introduce it to their diet slowly. I didn't with Coco and it was fine but others tell me that they had to add it slowly to keep the diarrhea from getting worst before it got better.
I didn't have issues with my other cat that I gave it to, but who knows, thanks for the suggestion.
I think for now I won't add anything new, since I would like to get an accurate result from the PCR test. I just checked, and Brody will be done with the Prednisone on Jan. 4th. He's on 5mg. every other day now, and is supposed to continue til gone. So I'm thinking if I get him tested the week of the 12th, I should be good.
post #38 of 43
My vet gave me the proper container with a little alcohol in it according to the instructions and a long swab to scoop up a pea sized piece of stool and put it in the container, try not to get litter in it and the more diarrhetic the sample the better. It is best if your vet uses a loop to get a specimen, according to Dr. Gookin. My cats never co-operated with this plan, they always had diarrhea when the Vet was not there!! Let us know.
post #39 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
My vet gave me the proper container with a little alcohol in it according to the instructions and a long swab to scoop up a pea sized piece of stool and put it in the container, try not to get litter in it and the more diarrhetic the sample the better. It is best if your vet uses a loop to get a specimen, according to Dr. Gookin. My cats never co-operated with this plan, they always had diarrhea when the Vet was not there!! Let us know.
So if the sample isn't 'wet' enough, it won't work? Last time Brody has a fecal done the vet said it was too loose, but wasn't really firm either.
post #40 of 43
According to Dr. Gookin solid stool won't work ,the more diarrhetic the better, this is why she suggests having a vet use a loop when the cat is having problems with diarrhea, they can scrape the muscous in the colon. My cat had "cow pie" stool when I did it, a watery diarrhea is hard to get up from the litter. I just scooped up a pea sized amount with the applicator from the wettest part that was not in the litter and dropped it in the vial with the alcohol. I actually used two vials in case there was a problem with one, my vet prepared the vials according to the instructions she was given and sent them home with me so I had them on hand when the girls decided to co-operate. If your vet has questions Dr. Gookin is very willing to speak to a vet and help. My vet spoke to her several times so we could get it right. You have probably read this if you have been to her site but in order to survive outside the body TF has to be in a "wet" environment, normal stool is too dry so it dies and is not good for testing.
post #41 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
According to Dr. Gookin solid stool won't work ,the more diarrhetic the better, this is why she suggests having a vet use a loop when the cat is having problems with diarrhea, they can scrape the muscous in the colon. My cat had "cow pie" stool when I did it, a watery diarrhea is hard to get up from the litter. I just scooped up a pea sized amount with the applicator from the wettest part that was not in the litter and dropped it in the vial with the alcohol. I actually used two vials in case there was a problem with one, my vet prepared the vials according to the instructions she was given and sent them home with me so I had them on hand when the girls decided to co-operate. If your vet has questions Dr. Gookin is very willing to speak to a vet and help. My vet spoke to her several times so we could get it right. You have probably read this if you have been to her site but in order to survive outside the body TF has to be in a "wet" environment, normal stool is too dry so it dies and is not good for testing.
Ok, gotcha. Well, neither of them have ever really had normal stools, so I don't think it'll be an issue. We'll see though.
post #42 of 43
You're not alone! I've had a seal mitted Rag female (she was abandoned by a neighbor at 12) for 6 years now, and I always knew she was around because there were puddles of vomit and diarrhea next to each other everywhere around the building. Clearly, none of my neighbors understood her condition or cared.

I read about IBD and food allergies, and realized immediately that what the idiot neighbors were feeding her was making her sick, therefore causing her to loose weight to where she was underweight and in essence, starving to death. Her hair for such a pretty cat was matted and so we took her to the groomers who removed the tufts. To make her situation even more critical, she had jumped off our balcony after a bird and had broken one of her back legs completely in two. An expensive operation saved her, allowed her to walk again but not without a KE device sticking out from her skin for 6 months.

Her vet told me that she may not be an IBD cat, but I know she is. All of her symptoms are IBD.

I've never heard of trichomamo whatever that disease is and will look up Jody Gookin. Thanks y'all for that tip!

Regarding Prednosone, it's as you probably know a death sentence for your cat. Cats don't live long after having it. It might be a miracle drug for humans, but not for cats!

Duck and venison are very strong/gamey and it would be better to get your cat on the lamb.
post #43 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by levotb View Post
Regarding Prednosone, it's as you probably know a death sentence for your cat. Cats don't live long after having it. It might be a miracle drug for humans, but not for cats!
Uh.. you should probably do some research before you say things like that. Numerous cats are on Prednisone for different issues, and they don't die because of it.

To give a quick update on my 2 Ragdolls, who are still alive and well after being on Prednisone for 2wks. a few months ago: Their stools are completley normal now!
I switched them to Eukanuba Hairball and a couple days after the switch, they had close to 'perfect' stools. It was amazing. We also did a week of Clavamox on Ozzy, just as a precaution since he was really bad for awhile. As much as I'd like to feed them a higher quality food, it obviously weren't agreeing with them. So, they'll be staying on the Eukanuba food unless something changes!
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