So tired of loose stool. Possible IBD, suggestions? Kind of long.

tamgirl99

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Originally Posted by kady05

His breeder also asked if I had done a course of Clavamox & Albon. I know Clavamox is an antibiodic, but not sure what Albon is, and how those two things could help?

Both of them are on the Royal Canin Limted Ingredient Rabbit & Green Pea. Here are the ingredients:

Ground peas, rabbit meal, rabbit, pea protein, canola oil, rabbit digest, calcium sulfate, dicalcium phosphate, salmon oil, DL-methionine, choline chloride, sodium chloride, L-lysine, potassium citrate, phosphoric acid, vitamins [DL-alpha-tocopherol (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), niacin, inositol, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), D-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin (vitamin B2), menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), beta-carotene, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement], minerals [zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, iron proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], taurine, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, and citric acid.

No, I've never noticed him doing either of those things. He's a great eater, and loves food.
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I asked because those are some of the common symptoms of IBD/food intolerances. Lip smacking is a sign of nausea and something my little one does often. She also refuses to eat quite a bit as do most IBD kitties I know. Of course there are many symptoms of IBD and it could be yours is just in the early stages of it.

The food you're using looks pretty good with the possible exception of peas and maybe the canola oil. I know many are allergic/intolerant to peas as is my cat. Others have no problems though so at this point I wouldn't worry too much about it.

You could try a few things to help him while he's also on the pred:

1. Added dietary fiber (pumpkin or psyllium husk). Start with very small doses and adjust from there.
2. Digestive enzymes to help process the food. I use Dr. Goodpet since it's tasteless/odorless and has nothing but beneficial ingredients in it. Plus it also has acidophilus.
3. Probiotics - again start small and adjust from there. I just get mine from a health shop (milk-free versions for my kitty).

If you try any of these, just add one at a time and give it a few days to see if it helps. If you add them all at once it would likely be overwhelming and make things worse. You also wouldn't know what's truly helping.
 
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kady05

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Originally Posted by twokatz

Just a little more info on the testing for Tritrich, it is on the website Tamgirl gave you but if possible go two weeks without any meds, that is what My vet was told. Antibiotics make it better while on them but it can mess up the results. I can understand why Pred would make it seem to get better because it takes some of the gut inflamation out, but it is a short term thing.I felt a little overwhelmed with trying to test myself, maybe your vet would be willing to help, the PCR can be expensive. The parasite is actually quite fragile and does not live long outside the body. The stool has to be diarrhetic to test, it is even better if your vet gets some with a loop. It doesn't take much, too much messes it up. Do not regrigerate the sample that will kill it. My Vet called Dr Gookin several times during this process, her phone number is on her website. Dr. Gookin's site explains all pretty well.

My breeder also told me she never heard of it and to try different foods, more fiber. I have a contact in her area in a postion to know that she has known for some time that she has it.

I really do wish you the best, and please keep us posted. Most cats tolerate the RDZ okay, you just have to watch them for issues.
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Oh I definitely would have my vet do all of the testing, fecal samples, etc. I was just thinking I could order the pouches for the testing myself. He said if we didn't see improvement on the Prednisone, we'd look into testing for the TF.

I don't think their breeder would lie about never having heard of it though, if that's what you're implying (not sure if I read what you wrote wrong or what). She's been nothing but awesome with us.

I definitely don't think Brody or Ozzy are naseous, or anything like that. I don't think either of them have ever thrown up in the time that we've had them. I personally think it's some kind of food allergy, or sensitive stomach, but I could be wrong. Also, I think it may be weird if they both had the TF since they technically came from different breeders, Brody was just delivered to me through Ozzy's breeder. But I guess both catteries could possibly have TF floating around, who knows.

It'll be interesting to see how Brody's stools look in the morning.
 
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kady05

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Well, I definitely think Brody is better. Ozzy, on the other hand, made a mess. No so much in the litter box, but he's definitely 'dripping' (I know, it's gross) outside of it. So now I'm thinking it's time to take Ozzy in to the vet.
 
tamgirl99

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Even if they came from different catteries, if one of them has TF and they share a litter box, they now both have TF unfortunately. It's highly transmissible through the litter box (feces). My kitten was actually kept in a separate part of the house from the "aunt" that had TF and yet she still got it. Since they are both showing signs, I would definitely go ahead and have one tested and then you would just treat both anyways. Good luck and let us know what you find out if you take Ozzy to the vet!
 
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kady05

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Originally Posted by tamgirl99

Even if they came from different catteries, if one of them has TF and they share a litter box, they now both have TF unfortunately. It's highly transmissible through the litter box (feces). My kitten was actually kept in a separate part of the house from the "aunt" that had TF and yet she still got it. Since they are both showing signs, I would definitely go ahead and have one tested and then you would just treat both anyways. Good luck and let us know what you find out if you take Ozzy to the vet!
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Yeah, I read that it's easily transmissible. Fun.
Ozzy has an appt. at 3 tomorrow, so we'll see what the vet says.
 
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Originally Posted by kady05

Oh I definitely would have my vet do all of the testing, fecal samples, etc. I was just thinking I could order the pouches for the testing myself. He said if we didn't see improvement on the Prednisone, we'd look into testing for the TF.

I don't think their breeder would lie about never having heard of it though, if that's what you're implying (not sure if I read what you wrote wrong or what). She's been nothing but awesome with us.

I definitely don't think Brody or Ozzy are naseous, or anything like that. I don't think either of them have ever thrown up in the time that we've had them. I personally think it's some kind of food allergy, or sensitive stomach, but I could be wrong. Also, I think it may be weird if they both had the TF since they technically came from different breeders, Brody was just delivered to me through Ozzy's breeder. But I guess both catteries could possibly have TF floating around, who knows.

It'll be interesting to see how Brody's stools look in the morning.
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Sorry, I have a trust issue with my breeder, I don't mean to imply yours is not honest.
Good luck and keep us posted.
 
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kady05

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Originally Posted by twokatz

Sorry, I have a trust issue with my breeder, I don't mean to imply yours is not honest.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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It's ok. That's too bad about your breeder. I would highly recommend mind to anyone looking for a Ragdoll
 
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Hi there - new to the forum - quick question???

Is the parasite you mention also called giardia? I've been breeding for 40 years (not a profession and not constantly - as my life permits) and I've have only once gone through a bad bout of persistent diarrhea. Of course I am always warning about diet changes and certain types of food - food quality - but I'm referring to a health issue - not a fishy food.

The bad bout occurred the 1st time we had more than one litter at a time - 13 kittens. We went through the gamut - every test and many treatments - it was definitely contagious. Our vet in the US worked at a shelter and always looked at health through the eyes of what shelter or feral kittens get - treated for street infections and parasites. Other consults with country vets centered around country problems - so if you have well water they think giardia - it's in the water.

Also the tests are very inaccurate. Depends of freshness of samples tested, labs used. Somethings can't been seen by a vet with a scope. Get a lot of false negatives and false positives. (I also have a lot of experience with super-bugs caused by antibiotics, like MRSA and C-DIF - drug resistant and reoccurring). Must get the right tests.

It seems everything depends on where and how you live and diet to a certain extent. But also being really careful - because every time we did something that worked - kittens stool got solid - all it took was forgetting one thing. For example we took to boiling water - but if kittens had access to a sink or tub and could get a drink...

I also found letting visitors handle the kittens before they were completely well was a mistake - their immune systems are weak and they'll catch a new infection. And respiratory infections will also cause bowl problems. We had to ask everyone to remove shoes and wash hands.

In the end flagil was the antibiotic which saved the day for us - but it's a really harsh drug that is known not to be used with any kind of liver disease - and never use for a long period. Flagil, like vancomycin bleaches the gut - kills everything (all infections and giardia) and then you have to build up the good flora again. But for an illness that kept going on and on - recontamination - we had to resort to it.

Eventually - get the cat on a really good diet - I only use foods that have the best (organic if possible) ingredients and ethical practices. If they won't eat what you cook try Royal Canin, Burns, Applaws, etc. - keep litters pristine and avoid all chemical additives.
 
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Don't know if anyone has suggested it, but a friend of my added Acidopholis (SP?) to her cats food & it worked well for her cat.
 
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Originally Posted by IslandBlues

Hi there - new to the forum - quick question???

Is the parasite you mention also called giardia? I've been breeding for 40 years (not a profession and not constantly - as my life permits) and I've have only once gone through a bad bout of persistent diarrhea. Of course I am always warning about diet changes and certain types of food - food quality - but I'm referring to a health issue - not a fishy food.

The bad bout occurred the 1st time we had more than one litter at a time - 13 kittens. We went through the gamut - every test and many treatments - it was definitely contagious. Our vet in the US worked at a shelter and always looked at health through the eyes of what shelter or feral kittens get - treated for street infections and parasites. Other consults with country vets centered around country problems - so if you have well water they think giardia - it's in the water.

Also the tests are very inaccurate. Depends of freshness of samples tested, labs used. Somethings can't been seen by a vet with a scope. Get a lot of false negatives and false positives. (I also have a lot of experience with super-bugs caused by antibiotics, like MRSA and C-DIF - drug resistant and reoccurring). Must get the right tests.

It seems everything depends on where and how you live and diet to a certain extent. But also being really careful - because every time we did something that worked - kittens stool got solid - all it took was forgetting one thing. For example we took to boiling water - but if kittens had access to a sink or tub and could get a drink...

I also found letting visitors handle the kittens before they were completely well was a mistake - their immune systems are weak and they'll catch a new infection. And respiratory infections will also cause bowl problems. We had to ask everyone to remove shoes and wash hands.

In the end flagil was the antibiotic which saved the day for us - but it's a really harsh drug that is known not to be used with any kind of liver disease - and never use for a long period. Flagil, like vancomycin bleaches the gut - kills everything (all infections and giardia) and then you have to build up the good flora again. But for an illness that kept going on and on - recontamination - we had to resort to it.

Eventually - get the cat on a really good diet - I only use foods that have the best (organic if possible) ingredients and ethical practices. If they won't eat what you cook try Royal Canin, Burns, Applaws, etc. - keep litters pristine and avoid all chemical additives.
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In answer to your first question, no it is not Giardia, it may be mis-diagnosed as such.by a vet. If you follow the leads for research you will find all the info on it. Flagyl(Metronidazole) will not kill it but makes it temporarily better. Only Ronidazole can kill it and that should never be given without a positive test and under the strict guidance of a vet as there are potential side effects. The testing is specific PCR testing at a lab and the stool has different handling requirements than usual. It is becoming a problem in catterys and shelters, places where a lot of cats are housed and yes it is contagious. I suggest you read up on it on the sites that have been suggested, also take the info to your Vet as so many are not educated about this.

The second thing I would like to mention is that Flagyl(Metronidazole) does not "bleach" the gut and kill the good bacteria, this is a misconception I had also until my Vet had me research it. If you research Metronidazole, on thier website, it should tell you this. It can cause side effects especially over time, Vancomycin is seldom used here for most of the GI issues as there has been too much Vancomycin resistant bacteria issues. Metro is very effective for Clostridium diarrhea as well as other bacteria overgrowth which can be contagious and may be what you experienced. Hope this helped.
 
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kady05

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Sorry for not updating in a few days.

Brody definitely seems improved on the Prednisone, but he's still not completely normal. Ozzy is now also on Prednisone, and there has been some improvement (no more litter box walls covered in poop), but again, not normal.

We've decided that after the holidays, we'll get one of them tested for TF. Brody will be done with his Prednisone by then, and Ozzy will be almost finished. I think I've finally convinced my parents that they have pretty much every symptom for it. So we'll keep them on the Prednisone for now, since it seems to be helping. Even if it's just a 'mask' for the TF, at least it's giving them (and us) some relief from loose stools.

Will my vet need to call and get the PCR testing kit/pouch? I'm assuming it's not something most vets keep in their offices. I just want to be prepared when I do call and tell him I want to get one of them tested.

I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
 
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Originally Posted by kady05

Sorry for not updating in a few days.

Brody definitely seems improved on the Prednisone, but he's still not completely normal. Ozzy is now also on Prednisone, and there has been some improvement (no more litter box walls covered in poop), but again, not normal.

We've decided that after the holidays, we'll get one of them tested for TF. Brody will be done with his Prednisone by then, and Ozzy will be almost finished. I think I've finally convinced my parents that they have pretty much every symptom for it. So we'll keep them on the Prednisone for now, since it seems to be helping. Even if it's just a 'mask' for the TF, at least it's giving them (and us) some relief from loose stools.

Will my vet need to call and get the PCR testing kit/pouch? I'm assuming it's not something most vets keep in their offices. I just want to be prepared when I do call and tell him I want to get one of them tested.

I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
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Oh I am so glad you are going to test. You may want to have your vet check on how long they need to be off the Pred before testing, she/he can check with Dr. Gookin. We even took all supplements away as no one knows what affects the testing or treating.
What your vet needs to test depends on how you decide to do it. The owners information sheet on Dr. Gookin's web site has all the instructions for both procedures, they need to be followed exactly. If you go with the pouches yes they need to be ordered and the instructions followed. If you can afford it the PCR at Dr. Gookin's lab is more reliable. Your vet would not have to have anything special for that but the handling and collecting of stool is very important. A false negative result is possible but a positive test is positive. If you need a link for Dr.Gookin's instructions go to Tamgirl99's post where she had the link and print it off for your vet. Good luck, I hope it goes well for you and the cats, please keep us posted.
 
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I definitely want to do the PCR test; seems like it's the most accurate, etc. So basically, I'll just print out the submission sheet and give it to my vet and he does the rest?
 
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Originally Posted by kady05

I definitely want to do the PCR test; seems like it's the most accurate, etc. So basically, I'll just print out the submission sheet and give it to my vet and he does the rest?
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Yep! That's exactly what I did. Just make sure they read the requirements for storing the stool. Good luck and please keep us posted on the results!
 
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Originally Posted by kady05

I ordered some Eagle Pack Holistic Solution yesterday (pet store didn't have it in stock), so I'll add that to their food as well when it gets here.
I'll update if I have any new info.!
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You might to introduce it to their diet slowly. I didn't with Coco and it was fine but others tell me that they had to add it slowly to keep the diarrhea from getting worst before it got better.
 
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Originally Posted by mschauer

You might to introduce it to their diet slowly. I didn't with Coco and it was fine but others tell me that they had to add it slowly to keep the diarrhea from getting worst before it got better.
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I didn't have issues with my other cat that I gave it to, but who knows, thanks for the suggestion.
I think for now I won't add anything new, since I would like to get an accurate result from the PCR test. I just checked, and Brody will be done with the Prednisone on Jan. 4th. He's on 5mg. every other day now, and is supposed to continue til gone. So I'm thinking if I get him tested the week of the 12th, I should be good.
 
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My vet gave me the proper container with a little alcohol in it according to the instructions and a long swab to scoop up a pea sized piece of stool and put it in the container, try not to get litter in it and the more diarrhetic the sample the better. It is best if your vet uses a loop to get a specimen, according to Dr. Gookin. My cats never co-operated with this plan, they always had diarrhea when the Vet was not there!! Let us know.
 
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kady05

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Originally Posted by twokatz

My vet gave me the proper container with a little alcohol in it according to the instructions and a long swab to scoop up a pea sized piece of stool and put it in the container, try not to get litter in it and the more diarrhetic the sample the better. It is best if your vet uses a loop to get a specimen, according to Dr. Gookin. My cats never co-operated with this plan, they always had diarrhea when the Vet was not there!! Let us know.
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So if the sample isn't 'wet' enough, it won't work? Last time Brody has a fecal done the vet said it was too loose, but wasn't really firm either.
 
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According to Dr. Gookin solid stool won't work ,the more diarrhetic the better, this is why she suggests having a vet use a loop when the cat is having problems with diarrhea, they can scrape the muscous in the colon. My cat had "cow pie" stool when I did it, a watery diarrhea is hard to get up from the litter. I just scooped up a pea sized amount with the applicator from the wettest part that was not in the litter and dropped it in the vial with the alcohol. I actually used two vials in case there was a problem with one, my vet prepared the vials according to the instructions she was given and sent them home with me so I had them on hand when the girls decided to co-operate. If your vet has questions Dr. Gookin is very willing to speak to a vet and help. My vet spoke to her several times so we could get it right. You have probably read this if you have been to her site but in order to survive outside the body TF has to be in a "wet" environment, normal stool is too dry so it dies and is not good for testing.
 
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