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And what color is he?

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Sorry to bother you all with another color question, but I am hoping you can give me an official color for my Ramsay. He's always just been listed as "bi-color" or "Siamese X" on any paperwork, so it'd be nice to know what we should be calling him.

Ramsay at about 4 months old:






And here he's about 2 years:



This I took to show that when you part his coat in the dark areas it's a very light, warm grey, though the photo might be a little darker:




The only other thing I can add about his coat is that the color seems to vary a little throughout the year (I could be crazy though, ). It sometimes appears to be a much warmer color like in the photo above at 2 years old, and other times appears very cool and more of a dark grey.

Any thoughts are certainly appreciated!!
post #2 of 18
He would be a blue tabby point. Tabbies do have the banded ticking that you see in the close up pics. I think its cool.
post #3 of 18
I am sorry to give you a conflicting answer from the one Goldenkitty gave, because that doesn't make it easier to make up your mind.

Your cat has a very unusual coloring, but I do not believe it has anything to do with blue, because the 1st pic shows a black tail tip.
Your cat has blue eyes and a body color that darkened with age, blue eyes alone could be caused by the white spotting,but the darkening indicates some kind of point (Siamese coloring).

I've never seen such a dark seal tabby point so young, but it might be possible. Mink might also explain why he is so dark. So seal tabby point with white or seal mink tabby with white is my best guess.

Point is a heat-sensitive pattern. The warmest places of the body remain lighter and the colder places (face, ears, legs, tail) darken most. Pointed kittens are born white from the warm womb and will darken in color. A fever or infection might cause local lightening of the fur, shaving (like before spaying) might cause a patch of fur to grow back darker than the surrounding fur. Maybe this heat-sensitivity migth alos explain the seasonal changes you observe in your cat.
post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thank you both!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
I've never seen such a dark seal tabby point so young, but it might be possible. Mink might also explain why he is so dark. So seal tabby point with white or seal mink tabby with white is my best guess.
Do you suspect he'd continue to get darker with age if this is the case?

I actually found a video clip of him from about the same time as the 2 year photo, and I believe that the photo is dark for that time. He appeared a lighter shade in the videos, though the picture looks to be accurate color-wise for what he is now at 3 years old.

Also, What is the difference between seal tabby point and seal mink tabby?
post #5 of 18
Seal tabby point with white spotting is my answer. With a black tail tip he can't be anything else but black/brown. In the 2 year old picture he also looks clearly brown tabby. The stripes clearly indicates tabby and the fact that the eyes are blue and the coat changes color with age tells me he's colorpoint (could be mink but I'd expect a much darker color in him when he was a kitten then).

The white spotting gene do make the colorpoint pattern look different that it does without white spotting.
post #6 of 18
It can be very hard, actuarally impossible, to distinguish colorpoint from mink just by looking at the cat. Nowadays you can check by DNA-test but that might be overkill if you're not interested in showing.

Try to picture google on the different colors, it might help you but not all cats you find when googling are named with the correct colors.
post #7 of 18
That's the one picture I was going by - the one where he looks like a blue or brown tabby. But she mentioned the grey coloring which is why I said blue. However looking at them again, I would go with possible seal tabby.

The member in here that had the shaded chocolate ticked tabby - he was a totally different color as a kitten - one that would never indicate his adult color.

Mixed breeds are surprise cats - with a mix of background cats sometimes you just run into cats that seem to defy normal genetics I own a defying mixed breed cat who changed colors 4 times from newborn to 3-4 months old. Never had a cat change colors on me like she did - still do not know how it happened.
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol View Post
It can be very hard, actuarally impossible, to distinguish colorpoint from mink just by looking at the cat. Nowadays you can check by DNA-test but that might be overkill if you're not interested in showing.

He'd make an awful show cat. He hates to be picked up, you can't touch his ears, and he flips out whenever he has to go outside.
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
That's the one picture I was going by - the one where he looks like a blue or brown tabby. But she mentioned the grey coloring which is why I said blue. However looking at them again, I would go with possible seal tabby.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said more grey, I just meant that sometimes his coat appears a very warm tone, and other times it seems like a very cool color tone, which sometimes appears to have more "grey" quality. I'm an artist, so my explanation to color is a whole other ball game.
post #10 of 18
Just know that even the cat judges will have different opinions on colors of mixed breed cats - have seen it happen many times
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Mixed breeds are surprise cats - with a mix of background cats sometimes you just run into cats that seem to defy normal genetics I own a defying mixed breed cat who changed colors 4 times from newborn to 3-4 months old. Never had a cat change colors on me like she did - still do not know how it happened.
I wouldn't say that mixed breeds defy normal genetics. However, it is trickier to determine the color since there hasn't been any selective breeding done in order to produce clear colors.

Same genetics, but usually more diffuse colors so it can be harder to get the color right. The fact that you usually don't know much about their heritage doesn't make it easier. In cats woth pedigrees you can at least check the pedigree and try to calculate what color it most likely is... when you have problems "coloring" the cat.
post #12 of 18
True, but still say that our Ling defys normal genetics. She was born a blue tabby and white (all the kittens were the same way). At one month they became blue pointed with tabby markings on the body (points solid). At two months they became seal points with tabby bodies (points solid). At 3-4 months old they all turned into black/white cats.

I've breed rexes - my black/whites were black/white when born; my blues were blue - so explain Ling. BTW mom was a calico.
post #13 of 18
Do you have any pictures ? Maybe they had some kind of fevercoat ?
post #14 of 18
We have a few pics when they were pointed but they are not scanned. It was not fever coats - I'm familiar with them. I've seen newborn black/white cats - there was NO indication of being a black/white.

I've had two good genetic breeder friends try and figure it out. One suggested there was burmese or tonkinese in the background. The mom was a calico and she was built more refined like there could have been oriental. But we lived on a farm - there was no exotic breed cats running loose when she got pregnant.

The weird thing was all the kittens were the same way - not even a multicolor litter out of a calico. I've had torties and calico rexes - they never had litters that were one color only. I know its possible, but this was a litter of 5 kittens - not just 2 or 3.
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
We have a few pics when they were pointed but they are not scanned. It was not fever coats - I'm familiar with them. I've seen newborn black/white cats - there was NO indication of being a black/white.

I've had two good genetic breeder friends try and figure it out. One suggested there was burmese or tonkinese in the background. The mom was a calico and she was built more refined like there could have been oriental. But we lived on a farm - there was no exotic breed cats running loose when she got pregnant.
My Mimosa is a longhaired sealpoint farm cat out of a blacktabby shorthair mother, they didn't see any pointed cats or longhairs around either. But there didn't have to be, points are a recessive trait, any tom could've hid it under his regular colors.

Quote:
The weird thing was all the kittens were the same way - not even a multicolor litter out of a calico. I've had torties and calico rexes - they never had litters that were one color only. I know its possible, but this was a litter of 5 kittens - not just 2 or 3.
The odds of getting all blacks from a tortie (with a non-red father) are not that low, it's a 50% chance for each kitten, I've seen things with lower odds (25% for each kitten) happen recently, a Somali breeder got 5 red Somali's from 2 ruddy parents, and a British Shorthair breeder who got 5 (undesired) Longhair kittens !
post #16 of 18
Controlled breeding is one thing, random is another. Granted the pointed gene is recessive and that's a good possibility. However it doesn't explain how a pointed kitten turns into a bicolor!
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Controlled breeding is one thing, random is another. Granted the pointed gene is recessive and that's a good possibility. However it doesn't explain how a pointed kitten turns into a bicolor!

The most simple explanation is usually the right one. It is impossible for pointed kittens to turn into bicolors, so either it was a miracle or the more simple explanation is they never were points (or blues for that matter) to begin with, no matter what they might've resembled.
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
The most simple explanation is usually the right one. It is impossible for pointed kittens to turn into bicolors, so either it was a miracle or the more simple explanation is they never were points (or blues for that matter) to begin with, no matter what they might've resembled.
I agree and we also have to remember that it's not only genetcis that affect the color development in cats. Enviromental causes may interfere with the pigmentation process.

A cat doesn't change genotype but the fenotype can be affected by the enviroment (lots of cupper in the water/food can make a cat green, a lot of silver ingested can make animals permanently blue, infections during pregnancy can cause pigmentation abnormalities etc.).
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