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They've got to be kidding - Page 3

post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
And my opinion stands...why does it matter? Can you name the last 5 people declared Saints by the Catholic church (without googling it)? If so, have they being named Saints affected your day to day life in any way? If you don't like what the church is doing, by all means be proactive and write the Vatican and say why you don't agree with it.
OK - I have a question for you. Can you name the last 5 gay couples to get married (without googling it)? If so, has their marriage affected your day to day life in any way?

Another question, can you name the last 5 child brides of the LDS splinter group? If so, how has their marriage affected your day to day life in any way?

The point I think several of us here are trying to make is that we care about others, how they will feel if this beautification happens, i.e., the Jewish population, and that goes beyond our own little day to day lives.

I don't even think it will affect Catholics' daily lives all that much but I do care that it would be like slapping the Jewish race in the face - yes I care about that very much.
post #62 of 79
I might be giving the whole issue the wrong twist, but I've interpreted the reports of Benedict contemplating the question of Pius's beatification/sanctification as a signal that he (Benedict) questions how wise that would be. Keep in mind that he's German, with personal experience of Nazi Germany. John Paul II was a real "sainthood activist", and some of his choices were controversial. The article quoted says this:
Quote:
He has said he hoped the process toward possible sainthood could move ahead. But he recently was reported to have said that he would consider freezing the process until the Vatican's wartime archives are opened.

The Vatican has said Benedict wants to reflect on Pius' papacy before ruling
whether his predecessor's virtues merit possible beatification.
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
OK - I have a question for you. Can you name the last 5 gay couples to get married (without googling it)? If so, has their marriage affected your day to day life in any way?

Another question, can you name the last 5 child brides of the LDS splinter group? If so, how has their marriage affected your day to day life in any way?

The point I think several of us here are trying to make is that we care about others, how they will feel if this beautification happens, i.e., the Jewish population, and that goes beyond our own little day to day lives.

I don't even think it will affect Catholics' daily lives all that much but I do care that it would be like slapping the Jewish race in the face - yes I care about that very much.
Linda, I don't quite understand why you insist on bringing gay marriages into this when that has nothing to do with this. No, I don't know the names of the last 5 gay couples married but I wish them well and happiness. Do their marriages affect my life? Not in the least because I don't know them.

And, I care about people too, and as I already stated, he shouldn't be made a Saint or beautified if he did anything to hurt the Jewish people but I have yet to see evidence that he did. I don't agree with not returning the children back to the extended families, but there could have also been other circumstances to consider regarding the childrens' well being which is all being looked in to.

Again, I don't understand how this would be a slap in the face for the Jewish race, or how it would take away from the Jewish religion as long as it is decided that he didn't do anything to help the Nazis.
post #64 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Mike, you remember when we almost came to an agreement to put a moratorium on trashing any religion? My side of the offer is still open; I'm still waiting for your list of some several hundred religions, gods, and goddesses to include, and the deal will be sealed. But did you really want to, in the first place?

Take away religion and half the discussions here would have to be stopped.

I do indeed. I thought that you and I had been doing that

Seriously though; it would be nice, but social justice is one of my passions. Truth and Justice for all, that kind of thing. And unfortunately, it appears that many, many times that injustice, bigotry or intolerance occurs, those perpetrating it use their religion and religous texts to "justify" themselves. Until everyone finally lives by their beliefs and stops trying to use their beliefs to govern others, it will probably continue. And like I said earlier, I don't see that happening any time soon.
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
And unfortunately, it appears that many, many times that injustice, bigotry or intolerance occurs, those perpetrating it use their religion and religous texts to "justify" themselves. Until everyone finally lives by their beliefs and stops trying to use their beliefs to govern others, it will probably continue. And like I said earlier, I don't see that happening any time soon.
I can guarantee you that it won't. But it would be interesting to do a study as to how much injustice, bigotry, and intolerance is the result of religion, and how much is the result of other causes. Then, on the other side of the ledger, how much truth, justice, tolerance, compassion, etc is the result of religion, and how much is the result of other causes. Only then can one come to any conclusion as to whether the world is better off or not as a result of religion.
post #66 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I can guarantee you that it won't. But it would be interesting to do a study as to how much injustice, bigotry, and intolerance is the result of religion, and how much is the result of other causes. Then, on the other side of the ledger, how much truth, justice, tolerance, compassion, etc is the result of religion, and how much is the result of other causes. Only then can one come to any conclusion as to whether the world is better off or not as a result of religion.
It would be interesting, but I doubt it would be any more accurate than most political polls

Just tossing out an opinion, I think as people, we are better off "with". As a world of Nations; who knows? Just as calico2222 said, faith and religion is central to many, many people's lives. I believe that way over 90% of the people that subscribe to religion (pick one ) are wonderful people, and that it's brings them comfort, hope, stability and focus. But, like anything else we have, the 10% that use and abuse their religions are the one's that seem to be the most visible and make the loudest noise
post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
But, like anything else we have, the 10% that use and abuse their religions are the one's that seem to be the most visible and make the loudest noise
....and then there's me.....I can make a pretty loud noise once in a while.....or a least a very obnoxious noise.
post #68 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Linda, I don't quite understand why you insist on bringing gay marriages into this when that has nothing to do with this. No, I don't know the names of the last 5 gay couples married but I wish them well and happiness. Do their marriages affect my life? Not in the least because I don't know them.
Hopefully I can make it clearer by saying that I used that only as an example of how things that don't affect another person's day-to-day life do seem to have them all up in arms, shouting, berating and carrying on anyway. Soooooo, even though a Catholic saint does not affect you or non-Catholics (supposedly), apparently even some non-Catholics care.

As for the gay marriages - it's just such an easy example of persecution. I don't have to wrack my brain thinking of examples and my brain is old and sometimes gets tired.
post #69 of 79
Things that don't affect a person's day-to-day life can affect them in the future. Something that they're all up in arms about may be just one example of a long-term trend. Whereas that one thing may not hurt them individually, the direction of the trend does.

I'd guess that Hitler's brownshirts didn't affect the day-to-day lives of most people at first.

Now don't jump on me for making comparisons or analogies; I'm not. I'm just citing an example of where something that "didn't affect a person's day-to-day life" really did affect them, even though it couldn't be felt at the time. And when I search for examples, I like to pick something outrageous and attention-getting.
post #70 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Things that don't affect a person's day-to-day life can affect them in the future. Something that they're all up in arms about may be just one example of a long-term trend. Whereas that one thing may not hurt them individually, the direction of the trend does.

I'd guess that Hitler's brownshirts didn't affect the day-to-day lives of most people at first.

Now don't jump on me for making comparisons or analogies; I'm not. I'm just citing an example of where something that "didn't affect a person's day-to-day life" really did affect them, even though it couldn't be felt at the time. And when I search for examples, I like to pick something outrageous and attention-getting.
My feelings exactly! And apparently I also picked something outrageous.
post #71 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Things that don't affect a person's day-to-day life can affect them in the future. Something that they're all up in arms about may be just one example of a long-term trend. Whereas that one thing may not hurt them individually, the direction of the trend does.

I'd guess that Hitler's brownshirts didn't affect the day-to-day lives of most people at first.

Now don't jump on me for making comparisons or analogies; I'm not. I'm just citing an example of where something that "didn't affect a person's day-to-day life" really did affect them, even though it couldn't be felt at the time. And when I search for examples, I like to pick something outrageous and attention-getting.
That's a great example, Tim. When I first moved to Germany, I believed talking to "old" people about Nazi Germany would be out of bounds, but found that most people who'd actually lived through that era were all too willing to talk about it, especially with a non-German who wouldn't be judging grandma and grandpa. In fact, I rarely had to bring up the subject- I got my ear beaten in. Younger people with no first-hand experience were quite the opposite, because they hated the idea of "collective guilt" (cf. the U.S. and slavery).

I "think" it did affect those who experienced it all, but the whole idea of the "Final Solution" seemed so absurd, and there was such a fear that "We could be next", that people simply were in denial. So many were aware that their neighbors were "disappearing" ("being disappeared"), but obviously thought: "Better him than me", and posed no questions.
post #72 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
That's a great example, Tim. When I first moved to Germany, I believed talking to "old" people about Nazi Germany would be out of bounds, but found that most people who'd actually lived through that era were all too willing to talk about it, especially with a non-German who wouldn't be judging grandma and grandpa. In fact, I rarely had to bring up the subject- I got my ear beaten in. Younger people with no first-hand experience were quite the opposite, because they hated the idea of "collective guilt" (cf. the U.S. and slavery).

I "think" it did affect those who experienced it all, but the whole idea of the "Final Solution" seemed so absurd, and there was such a fear that "We could be next", that people simply were in denial. So many were aware that their neighbors were "disappearing" ("being disappeared"), but obviously thought: "Better him than me", and posed no questions.
I would love to talk to some of those old timers. I think it would be fascinating, I would be enthralled I'm sure.
post #73 of 79
It's human nature to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, because they don't learn from others' mistakes. And when the wisdom and experience of elders isn't listened to, it isn't learned at all.

Those people should be listened to. They have much to share.
post #74 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
It's human nature to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, because they don't learn from others' mistakes. And when the wisdom and experience of elders isn't listened to, it isn't learned at all.

Those people should be listened to. They have much to share.
Tim, how true! A lot of young folks don't like hanging out and listening to old folks and their stories. I think they are missing out on a lot of wisdom and understanding.
post #75 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I don't even think it will affect Catholics' daily lives all that much but I do care that it would be like slapping the Jewish race in the face - yes I care about that very much.
A correction: The Jewish people are not a race, anymore than Catholic people are a race. Judaism is a religion, so people of any race may be Jewish. In addition to Caucasian Jews there are black Jews, Hispanic Jews, etc.

Just wanted to clarify that
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
A correction: The Jewish people are not a race, anymore than Catholic people are a race. Judaism is a religion, so people of any race may be Jewish. In addition to Caucasian Jews there are black Jews, Hispanic Jews, etc.

Just wanted to clarify that
I stand corrected for my poor choice in words. You are absolutely correct. My apologies to those of the Jewish faith.
post #77 of 79
It's actually not as cut and dried as that, but my understanding is not deep enough to provide a full explanation. This site seems to be helpful...

What is Judaism? What does it mean to be a Jew? Most people, both Jewish and gentile, would instinctively say that Judaism is a religion. And yet, there are militant atheists who insist that they are Jews!...

Perhaps Anne will come around and help us understand.
post #78 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
A correction: The Jewish people are not a race, anymore than Catholic
In the sense that they're descended from one man, Abraham, I think that they can be considered a race. Certainly shared genetic code is a criteria for race. And I'll be interested to hear from Anne, too, because it's my understanding (perhaps faulty) but that most Jews consider themselves descendants of Abraham. Everyone else are Gentiles. Maybe "race" isn't quite the right word for it. In any case, over the several thousand years since Abraham, I'm sure his genetic code has been so diluted so as to hardly consitute a distinct race anyone. So, if Jews consider themselves a distinct race, it's probably symbolic.

Yet, I think you're both right, because also one can be a Jew, one can be included in the Jewish faith (Judaism) without being descended from Abraham. There's a term for converts to Judaism, but it escapes me at the moment. On the flip side, a Jew can certainly be of the Jewish race (ie considered to be descended from Abraham) and not be a Jew (in the sense of not being of the Jewish faith) just the same as a child of Catholic parents can grow up and decide to be (good heavens!!) a Protestant.

Probalby the terminology should be cleaned up and better defined; it seems people use the terms Jew, Judaic, Jewish, etc interchangeably when perhaps it would be less confusing if they weren't. For example, using Jew and Jewish to refer to the descendants of Abraham, and using Judaism and Judaic to refer to the practice of the religion and the faiths and beliefs attendant thereto. Which, come to think of it, would probably still be confusing to non-English speakers because they're both from the same word.

Don't most Jews today (religious and not) still consider the Jewish people (talking race here as well as religion) to be a special people set apart by God? That was the foundation of the faith AND the race; when Abraham was called by God to leave his home and family and move to a strange country where his descendants would become a great nation. And out of his lineage would also come the Messiah. And so in that case, race (ie genetic code passed down) is an important part, as the Messiah must be descended from Abraham, down through all the generations, through David, and so on to Jesus (if he was the Messiah) or still to come (if not).
post #79 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post

I "think" it did affect those who experienced it all, but the whole idea of the "Final Solution" seemed so absurd, and there was such a fear that "We could be next", that people simply were in denial. So many were aware that their neighbors were "disappearing" ("being disappeared"), but obviously thought: "Better him than me", and posed no questions.
In light of this subject, I always think of this quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

That's why I think it's okay to question things, even if to most people it doesn't seem to matter, or seem important. Maybe to most people, the controversial choice of a Catholic saint might not seem a big deal, or it might seem like it shouldn't be a big deal to Mike because he is not Catholic, but to Mike it presents the possibility of a social injustice, as he said. I didn't take it as a condemnation of the faith itself, but a questioning of a potential decision being considered by the church.
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