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Need help with dry matter

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Now I know how to figure out the DM of protien and the usual stuff. Which all come out to percentages. But I am having a hard time figuring out DM for vitamins and minerals

This is from http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nrc1.htm

" 100 gr raw turkey liver contain ("as fed"):
70.5 gr water
2.48 mg Zinc
0.502 mg Copper
72.4 mcg Selenium

What would these values look like on a "dry matter" basis? The "dry matter" content of the raw turkey liver is obviously 29,5% (100 - 70,5). Results:

100 gr raw turkey liver contain (on a "dry matter" basis):
Zinc = 8.4 mg (2,48 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)
Copper = 1.70 mg (0,502 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)
Selenium = 245.42 mcg (72,4 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)"


Is the 100 in bold the total amount of liver we started with (100g) or is the 100 pertaining to a percentage?
post #2 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Now I know how to figure out the DM of protien and the usual stuff. Which all come out to percentages. But I am having a hard time figuring out DM for vitamins and minerals

This is from http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nrc1.htm

" 100 gr raw turkey liver contain ("as fed"):
70.5 gr water
2.48 mg Zinc
0.502 mg Copper
72.4 mcg Selenium

What would these values look like on a "dry matter" basis? The "dry matter" content of the raw turkey liver is obviously 29,5% (100 - 70,5). Results:

100 gr raw turkey liver contain (on a "dry matter" basis):
Zinc = 8.4 mg (2,48 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)
Copper = 1.70 mg (0,502 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)
Selenium = 245.42 mcg (72,4 divided by 29,5 multiplied by 100)"


Is the 100 in bold the total amount of liver we started with (100g) or is the 100 pertaining to a percentage?
I'm not sure what you are trying to do here.

Assuming the above values are correct, 100 gr of raw turkey contains 2.48 mg of zinc. Period. DMB doesn't come into play when you are given an actual quantity to begin with as opposed to a quantity expressed as a percentage of the whole. In other words, if you removed all the water from the 100 gr of raw turkey you would still have 2.48 mg of zinc.

Am I not understanding your question?
post #3 of 24
As said above the DM is not truely something commonly figured in raw or homemade food ...

for the DM of protein you get a bit more complex than most for a raw diet ... but if served raw it would not change // Are you cooking the food ?? then you take all the ingredants and then figure ..
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
I feed raw. I just found this a long time ago when I started my nutrition quest. But to this day it never made sense to me.

My vet(holistic) just challenged my diet and I am putting together an analysis of my food and comparing it to the current AAFCO profiles. So I brought up this info again to see if it played a part in my calculations. But using it just made a mess of things.

Glad to see this doesn't make sense to other people.

Thanks for the info
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
I feed raw. I just found this a long time ago when I started my nutrition quest. But to this day it never made sense to me.

My vet(holistic) just challenged my diet and I am putting together an analysis of my food and comparing it to the current AAFCO profiles. So I brought up this info again to see if it played a part in my calculations. But using it just made a mess of things.

Glad to see this doesn't make sense to other people.

Thanks for the info
to date only one raw food company has done the AFFCO feed trials .. I cant remember the name ( you will find some of us have lousy memorys )
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
I feed raw. I just found this a long time ago when I started my nutrition quest. But to this day it never made sense to me.

My vet(holistic) just challenged my diet and I am putting together an analysis of my food and comparing it to the current AAFCO profiles. So I brought up this info again to see if it played a part in my calculations. But using it just made a mess of things.

Glad to see this doesn't make sense to other people.

Thanks for the info
What do you feed? Do you mix up your own or do you buy a commerial product?

You might find this interesting:

http://rawfed.com/myths/standards.html

It's dog oriented but basically talks about raw food and AAFCO statndards.
post #7 of 24
What is DM?
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldyCat View Post
What is DM?
See:

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/dm.html
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
What do you feed? Do you mix up your own or do you buy a commerial product?

You might find this interesting:

http://rawfed.com/myths/standards.html

It's dog oriented but basically talks about raw food and AAFCO standards.

I put together my own. My main diet consist of chicken necks, livers, hearts (when available) or taurine, and salmon oil. A couple times a week I feed beef and one time a week I feed sardines. Also yolks make it in at least once a week.

I am not too hip for the AAFCO. They have been doing a good job at keeping animals alive but not a good job at allowing them to thrive. But vets believe in it so when I can show that my diet exceeds the minimum recommendations it will reassure her that I am on the right track.

Thanks for the info
post #10 of 24
here is a baseline breakdown of a "proper" raw diet ...

yours looks good but like your vet I would want the numbers

70%-75% muscle meat
10% bone
15% organs

ie here is a made up chicken

1lb total food
11.2 oz -12 oz muscle meat ...
2.4 oz of muscle meat
1.6oz bones
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
here is a baseline breakdown of a "proper" raw diet ...

yours looks good but like your vet I would want the numbers

70%-75% muscle meat
10% bone
15% organs

ie here is a made up chicken

1lb total food
11.2 oz -12 oz muscle meat ...
2.4 oz of muscle meat
1.6oz bones
She is trying to get me to incorporate vegetables in my diet. I have mixed feelings about that, mainly because every nutrient a cat needs is found in meat, bones, and organs. Necks at first, were kinda scary. Mainly because of what the ideal diet looks like as you listed. But necks are 58% protien DM and has a calcium and phosphorus ratio of about 1.1:1
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
She is trying to get me to incorporate vegetables in my diet. I have mixed feelings about that, mainly because every nutrient a cat needs is found in meat, bones, and organs. Necks at first, were kinda scary. Mainly because of what the ideal diet looks like as you listed. But necks are 58% protien DM and has a calcium and phosphorus ratio of about 1.1:1
A mouse/rat contains about 3-5% veggie matter in the stomach and intestines that many cats will eat ... that is why there is a 5% variance in the muscle meat on the "proper" that is a allowance for veggies ... I have had a cat who would NOT eat a veggie no matter what and then three with no issues and one who prefers just meat but will eat a veggie occasionally ..
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
She is trying to get me to incorporate vegetables in my diet. I have mixed feelings about that, mainly because every nutrient a cat needs is found in meat, bones, and organs. Necks at first, were kinda scary. Mainly because of what the ideal diet looks like as you listed. But necks are 58% protien DM and has a calcium and phosphorus ratio of about 1.1:1
I'm not keen on veggies either. That's the main reason I've settled on feeding Feline's Pride (no veggies) and Nature's Variety (5% veggies). I would prefer no veggies at all but I want them to be accustomed to at least 2 different brands and I'm not ready to make the jump to preparing my own yet.

It's great that they'll eat chicken necks! They'll have great teeth! But is there enough meat on them? I guess along with the beef and sardines they get enough muscle meat??

I'll bet you give them the beef in chunks don't you? I'm jealous. Dental hygiene is the biggest problem I haven't found a solution to yet. Jeta won't touch bones or chunks.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
I am not too hip for the AAFCO. They have been doing a good job at keeping animals alive but not a good job at allowing them to thrive. But vets believe in it so when I can show that my diet exceeds the minimum recommendations it will reassure her that I am on the right track.
Yeah, I think the AAFCO certifications are way overrated. The food trials are a joke as that link points out. They are better than nothing but not by much. People just need to understand what they do, and more importantly, what they don't mean.
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
I'm not keen on veggies either.....
They'll have great teeth! But is there enough meat on them? .......
Yeah from the start I could never argue the fact that cats don't consume vegs/friuts/grains in the wild. But can point out that pretty much every nutrient a cat requires is located in meat, bones, and organs. So to me vegs are pointless.

The necks again don't physically look like they match up with the recommended raw diet guidelines. But like in my last post they have a protien dm of 58% (AAFCO is 26%) A whole chicken is roughly 63%. And necks still have a Ca:Ph ratio within range. So IMO I think they are fine. The neck numbers were calculated at a food analysis laboratory.

Mine do have great teeth. This is my 4 almost 5 year old male. He has only been on raw for a year and has been on whole raw for about 5 months. The only teeth I really have to brush is his canines.
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
The necks again don't physically look like they match up with the recommended raw diet guidelines. But like in my last post they have a protien dm of 58% (AAFCO is 26%) A whole chicken is roughly 63%. And necks still have a Ca:Ph ratio within range. So IMO I think they are fine. The neck numbers were calculated at a food analysis laboratory.
Yeah but a percentage alone doesn't tell you anything about quantity. A 50 oz chicken neck would have the same protein on a DMB as a 2 oz chicken neck but obviously the 50 oz neck would have more meat.

Your boy's teeth look great!
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Yeah but a percentage alone doesn't tell you anything about quantity. A 50 oz chicken neck would have the same protein on a DMB as a 2 oz chicken neck but obviously the 50 oz neck would have more meat.

Your boy's teeth look great!
Thats where the Ca:Ph ratio comes in. If there wasn't enough of either then it would be off. Whole chickens are 1.1:1 - 1.4:1

Thanks
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
Thats where the Ca:Ph ratio comes in. If there wasn't enough of either then it would be off. Whole chickens are 1.1:1 - 1.4:1

Thanks
Again, that is a ratio, not a quantity.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
But why does there need to be quantity. More meat means more phosphorus. A chicken breast with no bones has a Ca:Ph ratio of 1:17.7 . IMO its easy to overdue it on phosphorus but harder to overdue it on calcium. Ratios are quantities of things, breast meat has 1 part calcium to 17 parts phosphorous. True these ratios don't state physically how much of actual meat is being feed. But the ratios give us an idea if we are on the right track.

I don't think there is any info on how many grams of protien or meat a cat needs. Mainly all of the info states its needs to be a certain percentage of dm and to keep the ca:ph ratio between some numbers. But that's why variety is good. It mixes things up and pretty much ensures that your cat will get every thing they need. Also, most of us know that feeding a cat is not an exact science.

Take care
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
But why does there need to be quantity. More meat means more phosphorus. A chicken breast with no bones has a Ca:Ph ratio of 1:17.7 . IMO its easy to overdue it on phosphorus but harder to overdue it on calcium. Ratios are quantities of things, breast meat has 1 part calcium to 17 parts phosphorous. True these ratios don't state physically how much of actual meat is being feed. But the ratios give us an idea if we are on the right track.
I was ignoring the fact that you most certainly put down a particular quantity of chicken neck. That is, you probably put out ~4 oz per cat per day. In which case, given that the chicken neck is 58% protein on a dmb you are covered. I just didn't think it through.

I am surprised the chk neck is 58% protein. Where did you get that value from?
post #21 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Where did you get that value from?
You can use this site http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ . Though on this site it comes out to about 60%. Probably because they don't include the dm of bone in the calculation.

I got 58% from a chicken Neck/turkey neck analysis done by Land O' Lakes food analysis lab. This analysis included the bone.
post #22 of 24
I would hope a 5 yr old teeth would look like that... they look good but since I had cats all my life none have had tarter or needed a dental prior to their teens and they ate mostly dry /wet combo

I from a nutritional stand point like the 1.1 to 1 ratio

Obviously the necks you are feeding are meaty enough if they yield that much for protein
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris10 View Post
You can use this site http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ . Though on this site it comes out to about 60%. Probably because they don't include the dm of bone in the calculation.
Yeah, I looked there. I found neck meat but not whole necks.

Anyway, congrats on finding a diet that works well for you and your furbabies!
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I would hope a 5 yr old teeth would look like that...
Every once in a while I do come across a kitty that doesn't look its age. But I have seen a lot of kitties and can usually tell the age by the tarter on their teeth. So that's why I am happy about mine.

Take care
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