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Revoking the LDS church 501(c)(3) status - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
Just found it - LDS donated only about $5000, church members donated over $15mil (48% of the total amount raised for Prop 8), and the Knights of Columbus Catholic church donated $1.5mil. Whew! Surely the church could have used that money for something better?
Just to clarify, the Knights of Columbus is not the Catholic church. It is a fraternial organization, like the Shriners or the Mason's. It IS made up of Catholic men but they are separate from the Chruch itself so they can contribute however they like.

Sorry, that just jumped out at me and had to point that out.
post #32 of 49
Are you talking about pride for me or the church? I don't feel like a proud person and I am not especially proud to be LDS, but I am proud as well as grateful for all the good they do. I am also proud and grateful for all the good the local Catholic church does. If there is any pride it is that I finally reached a place in myself where I try to be objective about the human condition. As I said, I don't agree with everything the church does or says. I have researched many churces and they all have things they believe in that I disagree with. For that reason I do not actively participate in any of them. That does not mean I have no association, I live in a very active neighborhood and many of my immediate family and all of my neighbors, are very active.
I find it very interesting about some of the things you qoute. Did these situations occur in California or where? No one here has ever spoken about this, to me or my family. If they showed a school class going to a gay wedding as a field trip I would be an unhappy parent as that is plain wrong, no matter where you stand on the issue. It is an abuse of public dollars, among other things. I live in Utah, not California, I don't know what happened there. I am not justifying what the church did or didn't do, I am just saying no one should judge others, including churches. By the way I am very much in favor of gay marriage as thier right.
post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
Are you talking about pride for me or the church?
Neither, actually. I thought that heading it with this line would clarify it;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
It appears that the organizers of the LDS "Yes on 8" movement are quite proud of their propaganda campaign
Some of the organizers weren't affiliated with the church at all, but were paid organizers. It doesn't specify if they were paid through the congregation's donations or not, so I didn't speculate.
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Neither, actually. I thought that heading it with this line would clarify it;


Some of the organizers weren't affiliated with the church at all, but were paid organizers. It doesn't specify if they were paid through the congregation's donations or not, so I didn't speculate.
Okay thanks. I don't know how church members act in other states, It is totally against the churches policy to pay people for somehting like that. Donations or tithing would not be used for it either. It was probably collections collected by individuals that are members of the church, which is unfortuante because it gives a bad impression for all. I have never seen church members go door to door on a cause, if there were a need it would be volunteers. I have been a member of the LDS church my entire life (a VERY long time) and I have NEVER heard of meetings being canceled, for anything, except conference, which is a HUGE meeting. Again I don't know what happened in California but if some of the things I am reading went on I bet it was individuals at the core. I have also never heard a bishop put forth a politcal agenda or message at church. Yes the church is against Gay marriage and yes it is a heated topic here also but not just within the LDS church. Please don't judge the majority by the actions of the minority, we don't all feel and act that way. I know as many, or more, members of the church that are not happy about the stand on Gay marriage.
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
If the church's hierarchy had some legitimate reason for getting involved to the extent they did, it would be more understandable. But to pay handsomely for a massive mis-information campaign in order to exert their beliefs on others was going too far.

I find it quite funny that so many conservatives are leaping to the defense of the churches stance, after making such a fuss about Romney being a Mormon and what an unacceptable thing that was. It would appear that many conservatives are defending the upper echelons of the church merely because it was the only propaganda campaign they had in the entire election that actually worked
I remember saying Romney couldn't win the nomination because people would pick apart the Mormon religion. I stand by that.

I am not defending the churches stance Skippy, just their RIGHT to their stance. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

All I am saying is, if you want to blame someone, blame the voters, they are the ones that passed it. But it is sooooo much easier and more PC to blame a church.
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I remember saying Romney couldn't win the nomination because people would pick apart the Mormon religion. I stand by that.

I am not defending the churches stance Skippy, just their RIGHT to their stance. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

All I am saying is, if you want to blame someone, blame the voters, they are the ones that passed it. But it is sooooo much easier and more PC to blame a church.
You didn't read the article did you?

Left to their own devices, these people would have voted by their interpretation of the proposal.
Quote:
But the “Yes” side also initially faced apathy from middle-of-the-road California voters who were largely unconcerned about same-sex marriage. The overall sense of the voters in the beginning of the campaign, Mr. Schubert said, was “Who cares? I’m not gay.”
Instead, they were practically assaulted at their own front doors by Mormon volunteers telling them that public school would teach their children to be gay if the Proposition failed. That sounds quite "blame worthy" to me
post #37 of 49
What I would like to know is who were the people who spread out across California to question the volunteers at the doorsteps to ascertain they were "Mormons". Bet there were a lot of volunteers other than members of the Mormon church. People were practically "assaulted" at thier front doors? They would've "probably" voted against p8 if left alone? In other words these "Mormon" volunteers were so violent that the residents of the the State of California feared for thier lives? Or maybe they are so ealily led that they can't think for themselves? Yea right! Last I heard people in California are pretty bright and quite capable of thinking for themselves.
post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
What I would like to know is who were the people who spread out across California to question the volunteers at the doorsteps to ascertain they were "Mormons". Bet there were a lot of volunteers other than members of the Mormon church. People were practically "assaulted" at thier front doors? They would've "probably" voted against p8 if left alone? In other words these "Mormon" volunteers were so violent that the residents of the the State of California feared for thier lives? Or maybe they are so ealily led that they can't think for themselves? Yea right! Last I heard people in California are pretty bright and quite capable of thinking for themselves.
That is all in the article. The organizers themselves were interviewed, gave the percentile of volunteers, and identified the "target voters" they were trying to convince, and the numerous "approaches" they used depending on how these potential voters responded to initial questions
post #39 of 49
The thing that seems to be getting lost here is that these organizers were not representing the church and it was not just Mormons. The Mormon church is not responsible for the actions of it's millions of members. This was a personal choice of an outside organization that may or may not have been a majority of members of the LDS faith. I also have a hard time with the angry, assaultive, picture that is being painted, Newspapers and other media put out information that sells and makes money. Do they imbelish, you bet, do they only report the absoute truth, not even close. It was a personal choice, period.
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
The thing that seems to be getting lost here is that these organizers were not representing the church and it was not just Mormons. The Mormon church is not responsible for the actions of it's millions of members. This was a personal choice of an outside organization that may or may not have been a majority of members of the LDS faith. I also have a hard time with the angry, assaultive, picture that is being painted, Newspapers and other media put out information that sells and makes money. Do they imbelish, you bet, do they only report the absoute truth, not even close. It was a personal choice, period.
That could very well be true. But, when these interviews were conducted, the organizers were very quick to brag of the number of volunteers (80 to 90%) who were Mormons, and to brag about the vast amounts of money donated by Mormons at the "request" of their church, and even, believe it or not, published their list of donors on their website. When it became a rallying point for the "No on 8" reprisals, they took the list down, but not before it was very extensively noted and copied.

The misconception, if it is so, of the participation of the church and it's members stems directly from the boasts of the very people they offered their money and support to.

And now, broad sweeping misconceptions are running rampant again. Homosexuals and their supporters targeting the businesses of individual voters for $100 donations is totally ridiculous. People that donated thousands to millions of dollars to spread their discrimination now crying discrimination because it's reflected back on them is equally ridiculous.
post #41 of 49
It is time to put an end this. We all have an opionin and It saddens me to see the focus be placed on blaming someone or an organization rather than on changing the situation. But let me ask you this. You keep referring to the organizers, thier website, thier information. Did anyone interview the church leaders, here or there, or the members, whose names you said were published? Why wouldn't the organizers brag and make claims, that holds power. I have never ever heard any of our church leaders make a request to it's members to contribute money to a politcal cause. The LDS church is against Gay Marriage as are many other religions and I can see the leaders reminding people of thier philosophy. What the members do with that is up to them. We are as vulnerable to a good sales pitch as anyone.
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
It is time to put an end this. We all have an opionin and It saddens me to see the focus be placed on blaming someone or an organization rather than on changing the situation. But let me ask you this. You keep referring to the organizers, thier website, thier information. Did anyone interview the church leaders, here or there, or the members, whose names you said were published? Why wouldn't the organizers brag and make claims, that holds power. I have never ever heard any of our church leaders make a request to it's members to contribute money to a politcal cause. The LDS church is against Gay Marriage as are many other religions and I can see the leaders reminding people of thier philosophy. What the members do with that is up to them. We are as vulnerable to a good sales pitch as anyone.
That too, is in the article that I linked on this very subject a few posts ago.

Here it is again, with some highlights.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us...nted=1&_r=1&em

Quote:
“We’ve spoken out on other issues, we’ve spoken out on abortion, we’ve spoken out on those other kinds of things,†said Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormons are formally called, in Salt Lake City. “But we don’t get involved to the degree we did on this.â€
Quote:
Mr. Otterson said it was too early to tell what the long-term implications might be for the church, but in any case, he added, none of that factored into the decision by church leaders to order a march into battle. “They felt there was only one way we could stand on such a fundamental moral issue, and they took that stand,†he said. “It was a matter of standing up for what the church believes is right.â€
Quote:
On Oct. 28, Mr. Ashton, the grandson of the former Mormon president David O. McKay, donated $1 million. Mr. Ashton, who made his fortune as co-founder of the WordPerfect Corporation, said he was following his personal beliefs and the direction of the church.
Involved deeply; ordered into battle; the direction of the church? I'm sorry, to I fail to see what I'm missing here?
post #43 of 49
Skippy I've come back in to say I went local and researched some of the things you have mentioned and I just wanted to say in some areas it appears I needed to become more informed, I stand corrected. It appears that the church had more involvement in the proposition 8 than I was aware of. I have no opinion on it, I guess they did what they felt right, which I also have no opinion on. If I were active in the church it would probably put me between a rock and a hard place. I have not felt any of the hate, or anger that is going on, nor have I seen it. You might be interested to know that there were also protests and demonstrations here, put together by members of the church, against passing prop 8. It seems to have left quite a division in the memebers of the church. There is so much homophobia going on it is pathetic, not just in this church.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
Skippy I've come back in to say I went local and researched some of the things you have mentioned and I just wanted to say in some areas it appears I needed to become more informed, I stand corrected. It appears that the church had more involvement in the proposition 8 than I was aware of. I have no opinion on it, I guess they did what they felt right, which I also have no opinion on. If I were active in the church it would probably put me between a rock and a hard place. I have not felt any of the hate, or anger that is going on, nor have I seen it. You might be interested to know that there were also protests and demonstrations here, put together by members of the church, against passing prop 8. It seems to have left quite a division in the memebers of the church. There is so much homophobia going on it is pathetic, not just in this church.
I've had to stand corrected on the issue myself: a couple of times When I posted my first rant I was under the impression that the church had done all the funding and organizing; and I found out later how wrong I was. And I'll be the first to admit, right now the gay community isn't doing themselves any favors either. Everyone just needs to stop yelling, put away the signs, go home and take a hot bath, and then come back out and get back to work on getting things right. Spray paint and boycotts doesn't make anyone any new friends
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I've had to stand corrected on the issue myself: a couple of times When I posted my first rant I was under the impression that the church had done all the funding and organizing; and I found out later how wrong I was. And I'll be the first to admit, right now the gay community isn't doing themselves any favors either. Everyone just needs to stop yelling, put away the signs, go home and take a hot bath, and then come back out and get back to work on getting things right. Spray paint and boycotts doesn't not make anyone any new friends
Mabey they all need cats to pet and love
post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by twokatz View Post
Mabey they all need cats to pet and love
It IS time to move forward.
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
It appears that the organizers of the LDS "Yes on 8" movement are quite proud of their propaganda campaign

Seems to be a fair amount of pride in this statement;


It also would appear that they were very aware that they had gone well beyond their tax exempt status;


And are shamelessly happy that this little factoid worked to the extent that it did;


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us...agewanted=2&em
Well, of course they are happy Skippy, they worked hard to get Prop 8 passed and it passed. Did you expect them to be unhappy.
I will say again, they are allowed to be against same sex marriage, whether anyone likes it or not, you can't take their freedom away.
It was on the ballot, people voted, the majority voted for Prop 8.

Good grief, I wasn't happy Obama won but I didn't whine about it. I didn't go out and protest about McCain losing. I will have to live with it and so will the people that are so opposed to Prop 8.
post #48 of 49
Okay, I posted the above post before I read all the posts. Now I seem everyone has moved on. So I will too.
post #49 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Okay, I posted the above post before I read all the posts. Now I seem everyone has moved on. So I will too.
Tis' ok, I've done that a couple times myself. That's why you may see me doing this here and there

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