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post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Okay, I gotta give my two cents on the gay thing.

In my opinion I think all Christian churches and all the Christians need to get off the "bash the gays" bandwagon. I mean, I don't hear Christians talking about the sinful people that commit adultery or embezzle money, or steal, or bear false witness against their neighbor or any of many other things. I don't mean to compare gay people to these "sins"
that is between them and God.
But didn't Jesus say, "Let him that is without sin, cast the first stone"?

I haven't always been where I am today, I think the church I am going to now and probably, even being on this board also and just life itself, all have combined to change my feelings regarding this subject.

I really don't feel Christians are doing Christianity any favors by gay bashing. I don't think it is what Jesus would do.

Golden, I don't mean this to you, I am just putting my own thoughts out on the gay issue. It is something I have been struggling with for quite some time and I think I am finally coming to my solution.
Cindy, I am SO impressed with this. I, too, struggled a long time on this subject. I had a lot of prejudices and misunderstandings. It was my daughter and her friend's easy acceptance that finally brought me around.

It's wonderful that you can re-evaluate your ideas and change them when you see that's what's needed. I remember when you changed your mind about capital punishment. It was a thread I started about Tookie Williams. He was a cold evil man and definitely not a poster boy to end capital punishment. But his execution was a nightmare because they couldn't find a vein for the anesthestic. You were so moved by the description of it, that your mind changed right in the middle of the thread. I've never seen that happen on any other thread or message board.

I congratulate you on your ability to think things through and change your mind when see things differently. That makes you a hero in my eyes.
post #92 of 110
Thread Starter 
Man can change his mind/laws on anything. God's laws will never change. You decide who's laws you really want to follow.
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Man can change his mind/laws on anything. God's laws will never change. You decide who's laws you really want to follow.
So you're saying that the changes made by the New Testament don't count?
post #94 of 110
Here's my opinion about gay marriage. You can take it or leave it.

To paraphrase Bill Maher, we are either all drinking out of the same water fountain or we aren't. In other words we are equal or we aren't.

People can pick out quotes from the Bible to prove gay marriage is wrong, and people can pick out quotes from the Bible in support of gay marriage. It's a tit for tat that doesn't get us anywhere. It's just the same divisive arguments used against interracial marriage.

Here's what I'm for: more love in this world. That love doesn't need to make people comfortable it just needs to exist. To get angry about it, to call it an abomination, to call it sick and disgusting only makes it stronger. Even if Prop 8 fails it won't end anything. Gay people won't slink off in the night defeated. We won't change because it upsets people. (Yes we. I'm Bi. I'm out. I can't change it. I refuse to deny it.)

I guess I refuse to sit on the back of the bus anymore. I may be married to a man, but that's not the reason I love him. I love him because he's kind. I love him because he makes me a better person. I love him because he has held my hand though the worst parts of my life. Now if you put an "s" in front of those pronouns it wouldn't change anything.

As for legalizing prostitution it make sense. The women who are a part of the sex industry are often victims of terrible crimes that they can't report because they are already engaging in an illegal act. Amazingly enough, it will clean up streets. The question isn't if one supports prostitution. I don't think anyone really does. The question is, where would you like it? In a back alley or right in front of your face?
post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Man can change his mind/laws on anything. God's laws will never change. You decide who's laws you really want to follow.
God's laws, Biblical laws, and religious laws can and have changed throughout history.
post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So you're saying that the changes made by the New Testament don't count?

Golden, that is a valid question. It just isn't an eye for an eye anymore.
They had slaves in the Old Testament also. And Polygamy.
I think God has changed the rules.

You don't have to agree with homosexuality if you don't want to, but you are required to love the homosexual and all mankind.

katie, thank you, but I am still a dreaded conservative.
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
katie, thank you, but I am still a dreaded conservative.
Dreaded? Aww, come on, you guys are the balance! Look at all the fun we've had
post #98 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazycatlover View Post
A judge found it unconstitutional and frankly I feel it is as well. I know this is a long stretch but if people voted that it was ok to pay women less because they were women that would be overturned quicker then you could blink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well actually, if it were unconstitutional, that was his/her job. It's not truly the "will of the people" that ultimately rules this country because we do not live in a pure democracy. We live in a constitutional republic, which means the will of the people rules only if the will of the people does not violate the constitution or the civil rights of the individual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
You're quite right! It is not the job of the judge to pick what is unconstitutional. That was done by the politicians that placed an unconstitutional bill on the ballot. It IS, however, the job of the judge to make the determination on it's constitutionality. And the will of the people does count, as long as that will does not violate the constitution. When that happens, they need to address it with the politicians that sponsored the flawed bill, not the judge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
It was a state constitution that the bill was found to violate. That puts it well within that judge's "paygrade" to make a constitutional determination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
does not look that way to me.



nope, he over stepped his limits. So what is he going to do, if the people vote gay marraige down again?
Quote:
Nothing. Until, that is, just like last time, someone brings a lawsuit against it. And then, either he, or the cognizant judge, will make a determination on it's constitutionality. Just like the last time. If it falls within the confines of the constitution, it will stand, if not, it will be struck down.
Preposition 8 is for an amendment to the state Constitution that defines marriage as "between one man and one woman."

If it passes, there won't be another lawsuit.
post #99 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
katie, thank you, but I am still a dreaded conservative.
That's okay. My religion teaches that our opponents are our best teachers so we should love them the most.
post #100 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
Preposition 8 is for an amendment to the state Constitution that defines marriage as "between one man and one woman."

If it passes, there won't be another lawsuit.
Ah, but there can. If it passes, then a lawsuit can be filed at the federal level that the state constitution violates the civil rights of certain people as guaranteed by the US constitution.
post #101 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Ah, but there can. If it passes, then a lawsuit can be filed at the federal level that the state constitution violates the civil rights of certain people as guaranteed by the US constitution.
That's cool. I hope that if this stupid proposition passes that it is challenged on a federal level and beaten.
post #102 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
That's cool. I hope that if this stupid proposition passes that it is challenged on a federal level and beaten.
I honestly believe that is why the proposition is worded the way it is. The very wording of it leaves it open to interpretation in a civil rights challenge.
post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
Preposition 8 is for an amendment to the state Constitution that defines marriage as "between one man and one woman."

If it passes, there won't be another lawsuit.
There can be and there should be. Not only that it can be challanged again in years to come by the people and put to a vote again which eventually it will be and that will be one more thing that people can not discriminate against. They can hate it all they want but if they don't like it they don't have to marry someone of the same sex.
post #104 of 110
I think what many straight people's objection is, is not to the union of gay people, but that marriage will be re-defined. I think all that has to be done is for gay people to have their own "word" for the same thing as marriage and all would be well.

I know my brother is against gay marriage, he says he doesn't want to have to explain himself when he says he is married, that he is married to a woman.
Does that make sense?

But he has no objection to gay unions per se.
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think what many straight people's objection is, is not to the union of gay people, but that marriage will be defined. I think all that has to be done is for gay people to have their own "word" for the same thing as marriage and all would be well.

I know my brother is against gay marriage, he says he doesn't want to have to explain himself when he says he is married, that he is married to a woman.
Does that make sense?

But he has no objection to gay unions per se.
No, makes no sense to me.
Gays can marry here and I don't feel the need to go about explaining I'm engaged to a guy. People don't assume I'm going to marry a woman either.
And what if they did ?
post #106 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think what many straight people's objection is, is not to the union of gay people, but that marriage will be defined. I think all that has to be done is for gay people to have their own "word" for the same thing as marriage and all would be well.

I know my brother is against gay marriage, he says he doesn't want to have to explain himself when he says he is married, that he is married to a woman.
Does that make sense?

But he has no objection to gay unions per se.
I see your point but people who are gay already use the term marriage. People who are in long term relationship use the term married. When people tell me they are married I don't question whether they are married to a man or women. I would find it hard to believe that many people will wonder that when someone says yeah I’m married. I think the word would affect gays more because people would assume they were married to the opposite sex. Or someone might assume someone is religious if they say they are married even if they are not. Not that I really think it should matter to people what others thinnk. I agree with the whole use a different word but for different reasons. I agree with it for religious reasons. Since Gays can be religious I feel it should be up to them if they want to get married or not. If you are not religious whether you are gay or not there should be another alternative that gives you the same rights as someone who is married. I do see your point though and if they made something that was exactly the same with the same rights and everything for gays and called it something else then that is a good start. Although I still think it is ridiculous that people make it an issue and silly because no matter what you call it it's still marriage.
post #107 of 110
I was just stating my brother's point of view.
post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I was just stating my brother's point of view.
I know you were and it really is definatley a better idea then just saying gay marriage is wrong and imoral and ungodley so they shouldn't be able to do it. Which seems like the main reason people are against it.

I wasn't trying to argue with you or whatever I was just stating my opinion on your brothers opinion.
post #109 of 110
And also, I know a lot of gay people, but still, when someone tells me that they are married, unless I know they are gay, I assume they are married to a person of the opposite sex. I doubt that it would be that big of an issue, and certainly not so big as to deny human beings the same rights the majority of people have.
post #110 of 110
I know it will never happen in my lifetime, but it would be wonderful to think that someday people will be judged and treated as just plain humans, not defined as black, white, yellow, or green; or catholic, protestant, lutheran or muslim; or gay or straight - just fellow human beings that bleed red when cut just like everyone else.

And in response to Cindy's post, anyone who would even ask someone if they are married to a man or a woman would just show ignorance IMO. Why would someone even ask such a question? What business is it of theirs, or even what relevance does it have?
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