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Showing Against Yourself - good or bad?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
This is mainly for those showing and/or breeding.

As you know, baby Jack should be born in the next week or two (at the most) and hopefully will be an outstanding show cat for us (better then Charlie has been).

Question is would you show against yourself to get points for a grand champion? If we decide to not put Charlie in the January show for one more final to get his CFA grand (local show and before Jack would be here); the next time we could try with Charlie would be next September. By then Jack would be going in the same show as an Open in Premiership. They would and would not be against each other as Jack would be Open, Charlie would be Premier. They would have to compete for Best/2nd Best of Breed in the class.

Would this hurt the chances of either of them being picked in the finals (putting 2 Oci's in the same final - one for breed, one for premier points)? Jack SHOULD be better then Charlie as we are getting show quality and his spotting and ears should be better to start.

Charlie would be 3 yrs old and Jack would be 10-11 months old at the time.

What would you do?

P.S. I mentioned this to Charlie's breeder (who came to the show with an adult and kitten to show - kitten did QUITE well and had outstanding spotting!). She knows I'll be getting another oci and from who. She told me (when we were leaving) that "I would not recommend it". I don't know if she meant it as not showing against yourself, or not showing cause its her cattery cat against another cattery cat and its seems that she has not been in shows where she's shown against another Oci breeder.

There are few Oci breeders in the US and they are far enough apart that they really would not run into each other very often for actual competing. Charlie's breeder never shows more then one of her own cats against each other. They are in different classes.
post #2 of 13
Disclaimer - I have no competition, there are no other Aby breeders actively showing at any/all the shows I attend.

I show against myself a lot of the time. BUT. I would only recommend it IF you are certain which way the judging will go.

Last November I put Suria and Adik (Puteri Ayu) in the same show. I had expected that Suria would grand on the first day (which he did) and Adik to grand on the 2nd day (which she did). What I didn't expect was for Adik to beat Suria in one ring on the first whcih meant that BOTH cats missed a final.

Be very sure you know which cat is better. Opens do final and so do 2BOBs.

I am facing a similar situation here now, by a stupid mistake, Tom will be unable to attend the HK show in October. He can only go to the November HK show, where he will Champion. Depending on whether the KL 8 ring show happens:

1. Tom goes in on the 1st day as Champion and hopefully grands on this day
2. Tinky goes in as an open on the 1st day and Champions
3. Grands on the 2nd day.

Which cat is better? Tinky winky. What happens if Tom doesn't grand on the first day? Nothing - he'll probably wont grand on the second day either! Will I show both cats together as Champions? Yes. Why? They can give each other grand points. Simple as that. I am not chasing any titles for Championship so either way, it doesn't matter, as long as they both grand at some point before year end!
post #3 of 13
We bring our own competition all the time in the TUV world Sometimes the only way to get a judge to look at a great representative of a minority breed is to have them also look at a cat of lesser quality. Of course, I can understand why Charlie's breeder wouldn't want to have produced that cat. . . Many are the times that I've asked a judge what they thought of my cat after the final (when it was the only one in its class) and they told me they couldn't say much because they had no real basis for comparison.

It's also a way to get grand points within the breed without finaling. As long as both Charlie and Baby Jack need points, bring them both along, and may the best cat grand first!
post #4 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
We bring our own competition all the time in the TUV world Sometimes the only way to get a judge to look at a great representative of a minority breed is to have them also look at a cat of lesser quality.
Exactly! Veeshan's best shows were the ones with more Somalis in them. She granded at a show with 4 Somali Premiers! Charlie's breeder does not recommend it because she does not want another cattery beating hers.

But I would not sacrifice Charlie's Grand just to be able to get points on another cat. If you think he will Grand before your new kitten is in his class I would Grand him!

Now I was told Kingston would be a 2 show Grand. Surprise surprise it turned out Veeshan kicked his butt. I do not trust the words of breeders sorry. It is a good thing I did not pay for Kingston (only paid for his neutering) otherwise I would be either getting my money back or getting a new kitten. Kingston turned out to be such a huge disappointment.

As a matter of fact if I wasn't so new I think I would of turned him down. Because when I picked him up at a show at 4 months old I knew in my heart he was not show quality. But because of my inexperience and believing the breeder would know more than me (knowing how her lines turned out as adults) I took him thinking "well Somalis are slow to mature". Some people no matter how responsible they are just don't have the "eye" in knowing quality.

Also it turns out Kingston does have an auto immune disease which his breeder could not of known about because it did not start showing up till he was 10 months old.
post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 
Charlie's breeder is one of the top Oci breeders, so she knows. But Charlie was originally bought as a pet. I know what to look for in "improving" the faults he has. His breeder was at the show with a 4 month old kitten with outstanding type/spotting (much better then Charlie). Maybe I'll wait and see what his point count is and probably will go to the January show and hope to finish him if he's close.

Then take Jack out. Charlie will go to a few shows with Jack (locally) just for people to see 2 colors of Oci's

You guys are probably right - Jack should beat out Charlie
post #6 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Charlie's breeder is one of the top Oci breeders, so she knows. But Charlie was originally bought as a pet. I know what to look for in "improving" the faults he has. His breeder was at the show with a 4 month old kitten with outstanding type/spotting (much better then Charlie). Maybe I'll wait and see what his point count is and probably will go to the January show and hope to finish him if he's close.

Then take Jack out. Charlie will go to a few shows with Jack (locally) just for people to see 2 colors of Oci's

You guys are probably right - Jack should beat out Charlie
I don't understand why this will be an issue GK - Jack wont be an adult for another 8 months at least! Which means Charlie has 8 months to grand, which should be a no brainer - he should be able to grand in two more shows shouldn't he? After all, he IS a Dot3! If September next year means that Jack is an Open and Charlie is still a premier, so be it! Still different type of competition - one for BOB (if there are no other Ocis) and the other for Grand points. It would be the show after that which could be an issue!
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
Because I'm limited to TWO CFA shows in this area - everything else is too far for me to travel. Its not a consistent thing in him finaling, and no real guarentee. The two CFA shows are in January and September. So if I don't take him to January, then he'll have to wait till the following Sept - the one that Jack will be an open in Premiership.

It was more consistent with finals in ACFA, so worth taking him to more out of state shows cause I knew I'd be getting the finals.

IF he does go to the January show - he would be a 4 show grand as he's only been in 5 CFA shows as an adult. I'd hate to risk him not getting premier points to grand if the judges decide to only put up one Ocicat (Jack) in a final.
post #8 of 13
If he does have 60+ points, then it would be a waste not to show to grand. For you especially and all your effort. In effect, if there were another 20 Pr in the next show, one ring at 4th or 5th Best Pr would probably do it!

I do so regret not having shown my Reecie more frequently as a younger adult. I'll not show her again even though she is Grand pointed. I'll try and get her to DM instead, hopefully with these her last two litters in the next 15 months or so.
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
I do agree that if he's close to finishing (with one final) I should do it. My personal goal is to show cats to a grand if I can. I only had one that I didn't do that - turkish angora as he decided he really hated showing by 1 yr old; so I never finished him.

Most of my cats have been granded in both CFA and ACFA (the ones that granded in ACFA only were my 2 Russian Blues and 1 Cornish Rex)

I'll wait and see what DH wants to do and if he's willing to do the cat show on our birthday weekend
post #10 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abymummy View Post
After all, he IS a Dot3!
You learn something new everyday! I know I would have remembered THAT about Charlie!

Still can't understand why it would be a problem to show both boys at the same time. . . My TUV mentor and I have brought champions representing FOUR different catteries to the same show. It was really nice to see all of the different "looks" lined up together. . .
post #11 of 13
Thread Starter 
Its probably not really a problem per say. My concern is would the judge put up 2 Ocicats in the finals - one for breed, one for premier points?

I've only tried that one time (Spooky against his nephew). Nephew had better ears and a little better type. Spooky had the coat. Was interesting as the judges really judged them and not automatically gave it to Spooky which was a grand. The two boys split the rings. I bred his nephew and so I won all around. HOWEVER, the judges only put one rex up in finals (whoever got the breed).

Since Jack should be better, he should take breed. Of course, if I show Charlie in January and he gets his Grand....none of this will matter
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Its probably not really a problem per say. My concern is would the judge put up 2 Ocicats in the finals - one for breed, one for premier points?
Has happened to me

In last November's show on the second day, Suria finalled all four rings (Top Ten) whilst PuteriManja (Adik) was Best PR in 2 rings, 2B Pr in 1, and Best SH Pr in the Specialty Ring (she collected over 80 points that day) and never got into the Top Ten! In the April show (the final show of the season here) Suria was Highest Scoring Cat in Premiership and Puteri Manja was 4th Highest Scoring (she got 3 high finals). Never showed them together again after that - too scared that the judges would chose Puteri Manja over Suria!

ETA: It happened again just this last August but not a Pr vs. GP. I entered Baby Ja just to collect her Winners Ribbons for Pr and she managed to final twice as an Open alongside Suria!
post #13 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post

Since Jack should be better, he should take breed. Of course, if I show Charlie in January and he gets his Grand....none of this will matter
IMO and seriously, you're counting your new Oci to BE better. I've learned the hard way that what we think is "better" may not be "better" to the judges - what happens and how cats are judged the preceding show year does have an effect on the new show year.

An example - last season's Aby BW (and RW) had one of the roundest top head and lowest ear set I have ever seen on an Aby. It has created a sort of a backlash - judges this year are choosing slightly higher ear set cats!

Another point in (perhaps) fact - judges may give precedence to older cats simply because the older cat is the fully mature cat. One show grands as most of us know are very very rare and it takes an outstanding cat to become a one show or even two show grand at 8 months.

So, IMO, you can show the two cats together IF Charlie doesn't grand in January. You never know which way the judges will go - that's why they're the judges and not us!
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