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Dry Food study

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
What are your thoughts on this study? The author is a very well known and respected veterinary researcher.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=18624064
post #2 of 20
That isn't a study so much as it is an analysis of other studies. The value of the analysis is dependent on the value of each study. The methodology of each study would have to be examined to determine whether it's inclusion in the analysis is of any worth. What usually comes out is that the "studies" are flawed in some way. Either too few animals examined and/or for too short a period of time.

I for one would be delighted to see convincing evidence that a dry diet is not harmful to the long term health of cats. That analysis doesn't do it for me though.
post #3 of 20
I want to thank you for this post especially since my interest is in DM.
I make the leap that carbs causes diabetes from seeing what happens when high carbs are removed from the diet of diabetics. Obviously not a scientific way of doing things.
In 5-6 years of witnessing what happens with diabetics, i have not seen 1 cat go into redmission if a high carb diet continues to be fed. The percentages of cats that do go into remission when fed a low carb diet and treated with insulin can be from 20-40%.
I also want to note that there are many canned foods which are also too high in carbs.
High meaning over 10% of calories coming from carbohydrates
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
That isn't a study so much as it is an analysis of other studies. The value of the analysis is dependent on the value of each study. The methodology of each study would have to be examined to determine whether it's inclusion in the analysis is of any worth. What usually comes out is that the "studies" are flawed in some way. Either too few animals examined and/or for too short a period of time.

I for one would be delighted to see convincing evidence that a dry diet is not harmful to the long term health of cats. That analysis doesn't do it for me though.
I actually think it has ... ... in the last 35yrs cat lifespans have increased 100 -150 % and most eat all or mostly dry food ...
I do think that the "studies" are often flawed as double blind is kinda hard to do
post #5 of 20
'I actually think it has ... ... in the last 35yrs cat lifespans have increased 100 -150 % and most eat all or mostly dry food

I do not believe that is a good measure. Food did not have taurine in it. Cats when they went to the vets were treated like dogs If a study showed something was good for dogs it was assumed it was good for cats. More cats are now in people's homes then ever before. medical conditions like kifney disease, hyperT, diabetes, ibs are readily treated now and in an effective way. Cats that were routinely put to sleep are now treated with top of the line methods.
I believe that since mcdonalds came into business human life spans have increased. I cannot translate that into mcdonals being good for humans
i also do believe that many studies are flawed and there is often an agenda in relation to the studies
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by optionken View Post
I want to thank you for this post especially since my interest is in DM.
I make the leap that carbs causes diabetes from seeing what happens when high carbs are removed from the diet of diabetics. Obviously not a scientific way of doing things.
In 5-6 years of witnessing what happens with diabetics, i have not seen 1 cat go into redmission if a high carb diet continues to be fed. The percentages of cats that do go into remission when fed a low carb diet and treated with insulin can be from 20-40%.
I also want to note that there are many canned foods which are also too high in carbs.
High meaning over 10% of calories coming from carbohydrates


The carbs aren't what caused the diabetes though. Diabetes is caused by your body basically not being able to use the food that is put into it because the insulin isn't there in enough quantity or at all to keep the body's ability to digest carbs up. That's not caused by a high carb diet, but once a cat has diabetes a high carb diet makes the diabetes worse because diabetes makes it harder for a cat to use the carbs it eats. It's the same thing in humans. A high calorie diet that causes someone to be overweight MAY be a contributing factor in developing a type of diabetes (type 2) but eating sugar doesn't cause it. Someone with a lactose intolerance lacks an enzyme crucial to the digestion of lactose, that doesn't mean they developed that problem from drinking too much milk, it just means their body has a problem that causes it to be unable to digest that type of sugar (lactose). So... it boils down to the effects do not make something a cause.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by optionken View Post
'I actually think it has ... ... in the last 35yrs cat lifespans have increased 100 -150 % and most eat all or mostly dry food

I do not believe that is a good measure. Food did not have taurine in it. Cats when they went to the vets were treated like dogs If a study showed something was good for dogs it was assumed it was good for cats. More cats are now in people's homes then ever before. medical conditions like kifney disease, hyperT, diabetes, ibs are readily treated now and in an effective way. Cats that were routinely put to sleep are now treated with top of the line methods.
I believe that since mcdonalds came into business human life spans have increased. I cannot translate that into mcdonals being good for humans
i also do believe that many studies are flawed and there is often an agenda in relation to the studies
But you have not accounted for the countries where dry food has been avail only the last 20 or less yrs and the ave lifespans are increasing by at least 30% ...
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indi1897 View Post
The carbs aren't what caused the diabetes though. Diabetes is caused by your body basically not being able to use the food that is put into it because the insulin isn't there in enough quantity or at all to keep the body's ability to digest carbs up.
A high carb diet is believed to cause insulin resistance:

http://www.catinfo.org/index.htm

Quote:
Diabetes: Diabetes is a very serious – and difficult to manage – disease that is very common in cats. Why is it so common? The species-inappropriate high level of carbohydrates in dry food (and some canned foods) wreaks havoc on the blood sugar level of an obligate carnivore. The blood sugar level rises significantly upon ingestion of dry food. With chronic hyperglycemia (high blood sugar) the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas down-regulate, or “burn out,†leading to diabetes.
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
But you have not accounted for the countries where dry food has been avail only the last 20 or less yrs and the ave lifespans are increasing by at least 30% ...
And wasn't there just an article out about how even though there are more cats in homes less cats are being seeing for vet care?

I was interested in the analysis because one of my cats is obese(does not have diabetes). I have put her on an all wet diet and she did not lose weight. Now I just measure her dry food. As my understanding of the analysis is that being indoors and overfed and genetics are the causing factors of obesity and diabetes not carbs in food that so many claim.
Quote:
They found that the percentage of dry food in the diet was not significantly correlated with the development of DM (P = 0.29), whereas both indoor confinement (P = 0.002) and low physical activity
Quote:
One might have expected a significantly higher prevalence of DM in cats if the disorder was caused solely by an unsatisfactory diet. In contrast, a study of 8159 adult cats presented to veterinary practices identified 522 obese cats (6.4%) and 12 (2.3%) with DM.
Quote:
Current published evidence thus does not support a direct role for diet in general, or carbohydrates in particular, on disease risk in domestic cats. However, available evidence does suggest that environmental and developmental factors may play a larger role in the development of chronic disease in cats than previously appreciated.
And this got my attention
Quote:
Another recent study provided additional evidence that high dietary fat, but not carbohydrates, induced weight gain and increased insulin concentrations in cats
And this
Quote:
A study by Appleton et al (9) identified differences in blood glucose in cats fed a diet containing equal quantities of ground corn and ground grain sorghum as the carbohydrate sources versus a diet containing only rice flour as the carbohydrate source. They found that the maximum incremental increase in glucose concentrations above baseline was significantly higher (P = 0.01) among cats fed the rice flour-based diet compared with those fed the ground sorghum/corn-based diet after the weight-maintenance phase.
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
I was interested in the analysis because one of my cats is obese(does not have diabetes). I have put her on an all wet diet and she did not lose weight. Now I just measure her dry food.
Many have been able to achieve weight loss in their cats by just switching to a wet food. But, weight loss is still controlled by the calories in vs calories out formula. If you didn't control the number of calories your cat was eating when eating wet food I'm not surprised you didn't see any weight loss.

Quote:
They found that the percentage of dry food in the diet was not significantly correlated with the development of DM (P = 0.29), whereas both indoor confinement (P = 0.002) and low physical activity
From the study abstract with my added bold:

Quote:
The energy percentage of dry food in the diet was not significantly correlated with the development of diabetes mellitus (P = 0.29), whereas both indoor confinement (P = 0.002) and low physical activity (P = 0.004) were. The results indicated that the proportion of dry food in a cat’s diet may not be an independent risk factor for the development of type 2 diabetes mellitus, whereas physical inactivity and indoor confinement are.
It wouldn't surprise me that lack of physical activity is a factor, even a major factor, in developing diabetes in cats as it is in humans. That does not mean however that limiting carbohydrates in the diet of an inactive cat doedn't help in preventing diabetes. Many have achieved the complete reversal of diabetes in their cats by switching from an all dry diet to a low carb wet diet.
post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
Many have been able to achieve weight loss in their cats by just switching to a wet food. But, weight loss is still controlled by the calories in vs calories out formula.
So weight loss is achievable with dry food also. Before I did the all wet diet about 2 years before that I portion controlled my obese cats dry food and she went from 18lbs to 14lbs. Now don't get me wrong I do feel wet is very beneficial I just don't feel dry is as bad as many make it out to be. I am just trying to understand my fat cat And no I did not count her calories just portioned it.

This analysis isn't saying wet food doesn't help diabetes it is just saying carbs are not the cause of disease and I find that very interesting.

One more quote I find interesting
Quote:
They also reported a significantly increased risk (P < 0.035) of DM in cats fed either dry (OR = 1.1 to 4.5) or wet (OR = 1.2 to 7.4) diets than in those fed mixed diets.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
So weight loss is achievable with dry food also.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming otherwise. Like I said, "calories in vs calories out".

Quote:
Now don't get me wrong I do feel wet is very beneficial I just don't feel dry is as bad as many make it out to be.
There is much empirical evidence to suggest otherwise. I strongly suggest the buy "Your Cat" by Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins.

Quote:
I am just trying to understand my fat cat And no I did not count her calories just portioned it.
portioning = calorie control

Quote:
This analysis isn't saying wet food doesn't help diabetes it is just saying carbs are not the cause of disease and I find that very interesting.
The analysis may make that claim but, IMO, the study cited does not support that conclusion.

Edit: BTW, I don't think anyone claims that if you feed your cat a life long, high carb, all dry diet that your cat is guaranteed to become fat or develop diabetes. But rather that diet will put your cat at higher risk of those things. And, IMO, it is indoor cats that are most at risk with that kind of diet.
post #13 of 20
Ohno, I am confused again, do we think that dry food is good for kitties now? I fed mainly wet, then i read that a variety is needed as so i got some dry kitty liked and no vomiting so I was happy, he is getting wet too and has a water fountain so not worried about dehydration and now way near fat. Is dry food good after that writing?
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Althekitty View Post
Ohno, I am confused again, do we think that dry food is good for kitties now? I fed mainly wet, then i read that a variety is needed as so i got some dry kitty liked and no vomiting so I was happy, he is getting wet too and has a water fountain so not worried about dehydration and now way near fat. Is dry food good after that writing?
Depends on the "we" you are referring to. Obviously I don't think so.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Althekitty View Post
Ohno, I am confused again, do we think that dry food is good for kitties now? I fed mainly wet, then i read that a variety is needed as so i got some dry kitty liked and no vomiting so I was happy, he is getting wet too and has a water fountain so not worried about dehydration and now way near fat. Is dry food good after that writing?
I think most of us will agree dry food is not harmful to most of itself but is NOT a natural diet for any cat
post #16 of 20
The carbs aren't what caused the diabetes though. Diabetes is caused by your body basically not being able to use the food that is put into it because the insulin isn't there in enough quantity or at all to keep the body's ability to digest carbs up.

Not trying to be funny but I do not understand. This would seem to support
that carbs are responsible for diabetes with the point being that a many cat's bodies have trouble processing carbs. They do not need or use them. A cat's natural diet is 3-5% carbs getting them mostly from what the prey they are eating has eatan itself. many dry foods get 25 -45% of their calories from carbs which can ovedrwhelm the system.
There is alot in what you say. we not sure if a cat is in remission or not, it is advised to feed a little food to see if the glucose number comes down. That is a signal that the pancreas would be working again where as in a diabetic, the bg's rise after eating in most cases

It's the same thing in humans. A high calorie diet that causes someone to be overweight MAY be a contributing factor in developing a type of diabetes (type 2) but eating sugar doesn't cause it.

I agree here but humans are omnivores and carbs can be beneficial

Someone with a lactose intolerance lacks an enzyme crucial to the digestion of lactose, that doesn't mean they developed that problem from drinking too much milk, it just means their body has a problem that causes it to be unable to digest that type of sugar (lactose). So... it boils down to the effects do not make something a cause

Agreed but again doesn't this suggest that the cat's body is unable to process the carbs?

In seeing the examples in over 100 diabetic cats, I have not seen one become diabetic that was being fe a low carb diet if you do not count steroid induced diabetes

most of us will agree dry food is not harmful to most of itself

Unfortunately most agree as most feed dry food. sigh
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
What are your thoughts on this study? The author is a very well known and respected veterinary researcher.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=18624064
You might be interested in this. It is written by a very well known and respected veterinarian (i.e., someone who actually treats cats) :

http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/

She is also the author of the book I mention in another post.
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post
I strongly suggest the buy "Your Cat" by Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins.
I know exactly who this is and I would love to get my hands on this book Here is her response to this article

Regarding this article:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?
tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18624064

What is interesting about this article is that it is written by a
person (Dr. Buffington) who has himself actually generated some of
the information about how harmful dry food is for cats. What he is
actually (and disingenuously) saying here is (I paraphrase)"since
there is no double-blind placebo-controlled studies PROVING that dry
foods are harmful for cats, then we must assume that they are
healthful, even if there is believable evidence to the contrary."

Of course, this is absurd. It places the evidentiary burden for
safety/efficacy proof on the end user rather than the producer of
the product. The TRUTH is that the pet food companies have never
proved their products are safe to feed, especially as exclusive
diets, even though the US government allows them to make claims that
are ARE safe for exclusive lifetime feeding!

Imagine a pharmaceutical company marketing an untested product that
bears safety/efficacy claims and then, when evidence that the
product actually is unsafe begins to accumulate, that company
counters back (using paid academics) that unless the consumers and
physicians who are questioning the product have scientific proof of
safety problems, those concerns and evidence should be ignored as
spurious! Imagine such a world.

Yes, human foods don't undergo that kind of safety testing, but they
don't carry government assurances of safety either, and while
nutraceuticals are also not tested, they carry specific disclaimers
that the FDA has not evaluated them. Making things worse, no human
food or nutraceutical is sold as an exclusive diet for life. As a
matter of fact, no human food or drug consumable is intended as a
sole diet. Imagine the amount of testing any product that were
intended for such a use would be required to undergo!

Dr. Buffington has worked extensively for the pet food industry and
clearly has enormous conflicts of interest in this matter. Dr Meg
Smart of the University of Saskatchewan and I wrote a rebuttal
Letter to the Editor of the CVMA Journal after Dr. Buffinton's
article was published. I understand it will be published in the Oct
issue of that journal.

Feel free to cross post.

Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM, Esq.
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
I know exactly who this is and I would love to get my hands on this book Here is her response to this article

<snip>
Cool! Did you write her and ask her opinion or did you find this response someplace? Either way, thanks for sharing!

Her book is supposed to come out in softbound in Oct. I'm sure Amazon would be happy to send you a copy!
post #20 of 20
I have read, and will try to find the link, that the low quality grains that were deemed not fit for human consumption, ie rotting or not good quality, were used in pet foods as they are cheap and pet foods standards are less. Also, the grains are carbs which can be linked to increasing weight and allergies in cats. Indoor cats I would assume could be thought as less active than indoor cays and if the food is high in carbs and calories and the cat is not burning these calories off, then the obvious conclusion would be the weight gain. I don't know a huge amount about dry food just personal experience. My cat is very active so weight worries but the first time I tried dry he vomited a lot. Since I had tried dry again as mentioned in the post above, he became constipated and meowing a lot in his litter box. I have decided, just through personal choice and literature from good sources that dry food is most certainly not the way forward for my kitty. Obviously reducing the portions is controlling the calorie intake, but I wonder what affect these certain grains are having on the general health of the cat, especially as they have been proven to lose quality whilst sitting on the shop shelf in a too higher climate. Suggestions have been made to keep dry food in the fridge to reduce these issues. Has anyone else heard of this?
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