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post #61 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecanopener View Post
...I don't care what Obama's plan is because I won't vote for him no matter what,....
Well, I care what Obama's plan is. I also care what McCain's plan is. Because one of those two men is going to be our next President, barring some unforeseen event. So whether you plan on voting for him or not, I think it's to your best interest to concern yourself with Obama's plan as well as with McCain's.

I haven't got to McCain's plan, yet, but I've read enough about Obama's to know it's not going to cut the mustard. He makes some steps toward covering more people currently uninsured, but his plans of having them buy insurance and then subsidizing it.....I don't know......I think he's been getting some big contributions from insurance companies and he's been listening to what they're telling him. His plan should cover more people, yes, but without reforming the current system, his promises about reigning in costs aren't going to be worth a plugged nickel. They're been trying to reign in costs for 20 years, and it hasn't done any good.

While he's made some bold statements about some other things, this plan is only semi-bold, and already semi-cold and it'll be DOA and stiff as a board when it gets to Congress, where they'll dissect it and bisect it and all get their own little piece and by the time it gets to you and me, it's going to be some pretty worthless tripe.

(sorry, I'm getting a little short on metaphors tonight)
post #62 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Well, I care what Obama's plan is. I also care what McCain's plan is. Because one of those two men is going to be our next President, barring some unforeseen event. So whether you plan on voting for him or not, I think it's to your best interest to concern yourself with Obama's plan as well as with McCain's.

I haven't got to McCain's plan, yet, but I've read enough about Obama's to know it's not going to cut the mustard. He makes some steps toward covering more people currently uninsured, but his plans of having them buy insurance and then subsidizing it.....I don't know......I think he's been getting some big contributions from insurance companies and he's been listening to what they're telling him. His plan should cover more people, yes, but without reforming the current system, his promises about reigning in costs aren't going to be worth a plugged nickel. They're been trying to reign in costs for 20 years, and it hasn't done any good.

While he's made some bold statements about some other things, this plan is only semi-bold, and already semi-cold and it'll be DOA and stiff as a board when it gets to Congress, where they'll dissect it and bisect it and all get their own little piece and by the time it gets to you and me, it's going to be some pretty worthless tripe.

(sorry, I'm getting a little short on metaphors tonight)
FWIW, I heard him say that it is only the beginning. He said that we have to start within the infrastructure that we have and then move closer and closer to getting everyone insured.
post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I think it's to your best interest to concern yourself with Obama's plan as well as with McCain's.
Gosh it's touching how people are so concerned with what's in MY best interest around here. You know, it really doesn't matter what we think about either plan because what I think about them or what you think about them isn't going to change a thing. The politicians are going to do what they're going do.
post #64 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Well, I care what Obama's plan is. I also care what McCain's plan is. Because one of those two men is going to be our next President, barring some unforeseen event. So whether you plan on voting for him or not, I think it's to your best interest to concern yourself with Obama's plan as well as with McCain's.

Well said - whether one agrees or disagrees with either's policy. It's always a wise and intelligent thing to learn what you can of the policy/leanings of each party because as you say - one of them is very likely to be your next leader.
post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Well said - whether one agrees or disagrees with either's policy. It's always a wise and intelligent thing to learn what you can of the policy/leanings of each party because as you say - one of them is very likely to be your next leader.
I definitely agree. These things can effect your life. An informed voter is an empowered voter.
post #66 of 82
I read the analysis of both plans. They both stink. My point was that it doesn't matter to me what Obama's plan is because what he wants to do isn't going to influence my vote. He could say he's going to give me the world's greatest health care plan on a silver platter and I still wouldn't vote for him. My disagreement with McCain's plan isn't going to keep me from voting for him either.
post #67 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC12 View Post
I definitely agree. These things can effect your life. An informed voter is an empowered voter.

You also are right but I'm sure you have the same issues in the US as we have here in Canada - people vote not so much on the issues as much as they vote on personality of the candidate, emotional feelings and often just because their parents always voted a certain way (democratic or republican in your case, conservative or liberal in ours). I hope our younger generation will be more informed on the issues of each campaign and seriously weigh the pros and cons for the good of the country before actually stepping up to vote. We aren't there yet, but hopefully soon.

Our election is coming up more quickly than yours and there seems to be a great focus on the environment and how "green" our candidates are. It's interesting to see what each candidate's definition of green really is - they can't even agree on that.
post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
You also are right but I'm sure you have the same issues in the US as we have here in Canada - people vote not so much on the issues as much as they vote on personality of the candidate, emotional feelings and often just because their parents always voted a certain way (democratic or republican in your case, conservative or liberal in ours). I hope our younger generation will be more informed on the issues of each campaign and seriously weigh the pros and cons for the good of the country before actually stepping up to vote. We aren't there yet, but hopefully soon.

Our election is coming up more quickly than yours and there seems to be a great focus on the environment and how "green" our candidates are. It's interesting to see what each candidate's definition of green really is - they can't even agree on that.
What used to get me was when people would say they voted for the candidate because they could see them being friends with them. Or he is someone I could have a beer with. There are a lot of people I like that I would not want in charge of the destiny of the country. For me it is about issues and governance. Who do I agree with most on policy.
It will be interesting to see what direction Canada takes. I know your current PM is not popular with the people.
post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC12 View Post
FWIW, I heard him say that it is only the beginning. He said that we have to start within the infrastructure that we have and then move closer and closer to getting everyone insured.
I think the problem with that, although it sounds reasonable and logical, is that by trying to make small changes in the current system, we'll get bogged down in huge government expenses and we'll create huge new government bureacracies and in the end, the result will only be the small changes. I think the way to do it is just to make a clean and complete change. Eliminate the current system totally one day and the next day start the new system.

But naturally, no candidate is going to put forward a plan like that because of the vested interests in the current system who've contributed to their campaign and who are also going to do everything possible to stop it. No candidate wants that while they're trying to get elected.
post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
It's interesting to see what each candidate's definition of green really is - they can't even agree on that.
Well, there's green, and then there's yellow-green, blue-green, mint-green, apple-green, lime-green, spring-green,................
post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC12 View Post
What used to get me was when people would say they voted for the candidate because they could see them being friends with them. Or he is someone I could have a beer with. There are a lot of people I like that I would not want in charge of the destiny of the country. For me it is about issues and governance. Who do I agree with most on policy.
It will be interesting to see what direction Canada takes. I know your current PM is not popular with the people.
There are actually some people who like our current PM - I'm not one of them though.

I'm considering going with the NDP this time - I rather like Jack Layton and what he stands for - the working man. I still have some "studying" and listening to do before actually making my decision. At this point I only know who I will NOT be voting for.
post #72 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Well, there's green, and then there's yellow-green, blue-green, mint-green, apple-green, lime-green, spring-green,................

Ain't it the truth! I heard a green party candidate and a Conservative candidate on the radio this morning explaining their "green" plans and they were pretty much polar opposites.
post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Well, I care what Obama's plan is. I also care what McCain's plan is. Because one of those two men is going to be our next President, barring some unforeseen event. So whether you plan on voting for him or not, I think it's to your best interest to concern yourself with Obama's plan as well as with McCain's.

I haven't got to McCain's plan, yet, but I've read enough about Obama's to know it's not going to cut the mustard. He makes some steps toward covering more people currently uninsured, but his plans of having them buy insurance and then subsidizing it.....I don't know......I think he's been getting some big contributions from insurance companies and he's been listening to what they're telling him. His plan should cover more people, yes, but without reforming the current system, his promises about reigning in costs aren't going to be worth a plugged nickel. They're been trying to reign in costs for 20 years, and it hasn't done any good.

While he's made some bold statements about some other things, this plan is only semi-bold, and already semi-cold and it'll be DOA and stiff as a board when it gets to Congress, where they'll dissect it and bisect it and all get their own little piece and by the time it gets to you and me, it's going to be some pretty worthless tripe.

(sorry, I'm getting a little short on metaphors tonight)
coaster, I don't agree with you all the time, but on this issue you express my viewpoints much better and with much deeper understanding than I ever could. Thank you.
post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
There are actually some people who like our current PM - I'm not one of them though.

I'm considering going with the NDP this time - I rather like Jack Layton and what he stands for - the working man. I still have some "studying" and listening to do before actually making my decision. At this point I only know who I will NOT be voting for.
I read his platform and it does sound really good. I would consider him I were Canadian.
post #75 of 82
I had my computer shut down for the night. I was going to go to bed early. Then I started reading McCain's plan over my bedtime snack. Which got me so riled up I had to boot up again and post.

I do have to give McCain credit for acknowledging one of the basic problems of the current system: the employer-provided model. I also give him credit for mentioning medical tort reform and pricing transparency. Though the statements on his website are pretty wishy-washy.

But most of the material on his website is just gloss to cover up some rather alarming parts of his plan. First of all, and this should say just about enough, it sounds to me like his plan was written by health insurance companies.

McCain wants to move away from the employer-provided system we have now, which I agree is necessary. But the way he wants to do it is going to cost individuals a heck of a lot of money and result in a heck of a lot of people going without health insurance. Which is going to put us even deeper into the problems we're in now. So, a couple observations about McCain's plan to shift health insurance off employers:

1) he wants to tax the imputed income (the amount the employer pays for the employees insurance) The result of this is that younger, healthier employees will opt out, leaving the older employees, and dramatically increasing the employer's cost to insure them. Thus employers will be discontinuing health insurance as an employee benefit, or they'll be requiring employees to pick up a greater proportion of the cost.

2) when employers discontinue insuring employees, McCain says they'll be able to go out into the private market and purchase their own insurance. He says the government will give a tax credit to help reimburse the cost. This is a rewarmed Bush plan from one of the two previous elections, isn't it? Tax credits will never come close to reimbursing the cost of private insurance. Worse yet, what happens to the older employees with chronic or pre-existing conditions? This is an insurance company's DREAM. These employees get knocked off their employer's insurance, where they have to be covered, sending them out into the private market, where insurance companies can DENY them coverage or charge them sky-high premiums (even while disallowing benefits for pre-existing conditions). McCain says they'll be covered by "Guaranteed Access Programs" -- a warm, fuzzy-sounding name for what are usually called "high-risk" pools. Well, guess what, many states have been discontinuing these programs or limiting enrollment because of high costs. And even if they are "guaranteed access" they'll still have to pay the astronomical premiums.

3) McCain says he can lower health-care costs through "common-sense initiatives." Well, he's not specific about what those are, and isn't that what every candidate, their brothers, and their mothers have been promising each and every election and we can see how well that's worked out. Folks, he doesn't have a clue how to lower health-care costs, and if he lets the insurance companies come up with his ideas, like he did for health insurance "portability" (a fancy name for buying your own insurance) then we're all double-screwed.

So while McCain's plan has a number of noble-sounding catch-phrases in it: "restore control to the individual", "easier to obtain insurance", "reform the tax code", "portability", "guaranteed access" they all mean basically: you're going to have to go shopping for your own insurance, pay for it out of your own pocket, and if you're not in perfect health you're either going to end up uninsured or broke. This plan is a bonanza and a windfall for health insurance companies, and we all know how badly they need the extra income, don't we? So their poor, underpaid CEOs will have enough money to retire on.

I'm really disgusted.
post #76 of 82
McCain's plan was what I was reacting too when I said I would lose the plan I have with my employer and have to pay more for much less coverage. Even though I am in good health with no pre-existing conditions I am 52. I am not one of the prime people that companies like to insure. I would be fine with giving up some of extras I have for more basic coverage and premiums close to what I am paying now to get everyone covered but not with taking the cuts in coverage and extra I would have to pay with McCains plan.
post #77 of 82
Thread Starter 
Several of the concerns raised in the study cited above are echoed here:
Business Cool Toward McCain's Health Coverage Plan

Quote:
The officials, with organizations like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Business Roundtable and the National Federation of Independent Business, predicted in recent interviews that the McCain plan, which eliminates the exclusion of health benefits from income taxes, would accelerate the erosion of employer-sponsored health insurance and do little to reduce the number of uninsured from 45 million.
Quote:
Officials with eight business trade groups contacted by The New York Times predicted the McCain plan would raise costs and force some employers to stop providing health benefits.
A recent survey of 187 corporate executives by the American Benefits Council and Miller & Chevalier, a consulting firm, found that three-fourths felt the repeal of the tax exclusion would have a “strong negative impact†on their workers. Only 4 percent said they would provide additional pay to fill any gaps.
This editorial makes the point that in some ways it would be an improvement over the status quo: Whose Health Plan?
Quote:
Overall, Barack Obama's health-care plan is preferable to John McCain's. Obama's approach -- which would require employers to provide insurance or pay into a fund, subsidize those unable to afford coverage on their own and set up new purchasing pools -- would cover more people and would help those who have the hardest time obtaining insurance.
But McCain's plan is not the ill-intentioned monstrosity of Obama's ominous portrayal. In important ways, it would be an improvement over current law, making a health insurance system that is now tilted in favor of the rich significantly more progressive.
post #78 of 82
In case anyone is interrsted in the issues during this campaign, this is one that I happen to think needs change.

Here is the assessmen of McCain's proposal:
Quote:
The McCain health care plan represents a philosophical advance over many other health care proposals, principally in its commitment to redistributing the current tax exemption for employer-based health insurance. However, the plan raises more concerns than it addresses. The plan would
  • provide a refundable tax credit that is more valuable to low-income workers than the current tax exemption for employer-based insurance, though the credit is not adequate to make coverage affordable for many;
  • make insurance coverage less accessible and affordable for those with high health care needs;
  • increase coverage among the currently uninsured through the nongroup market but reduce the number already covered by employers, leaving about the same number of people uninsured;
  • have a high budget cost, at least in its early years.
In brief, McCain’s proposal would dramatically change how many Americans obtain health insurance coverage, make coverage less accessible for those with health problems, have a high budget cost, but have little effect on the number uninsured.
and here is the assessment of Obama's proposal:
Quote:
Our general assessment of the Obama plan is that it would
  • greatly increase health insurance coverage but would still leave about 6 percent of the non-elderly population uninsured, compared to 17 percent today.
  • substantially increase access to affordable and adequate coverage for those with the highest health care needs, including those with chronic illnesses, by spreading health care risk broadly;
  • significantly increase the affordability of care for low-income individuals; and
    reduce the growth in health spending through a broad array of strategies.
In short, Obama’s proposal contains the basic components necessary for effectively addressing the most important shortcomings of the current health care system, that is, limited coverage, inadequate risk pooling, and high-cost growth.
Here are both summaries:
http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/hea..._summaries.pdf

And here is the "about us" page for the Urban Institute.
http://www.urban.org/about/index.cfm
post #79 of 82
About what I said, though more concisely and coherently. That's what happens when I post just before bedtime.
post #80 of 82
Today my company announced the upcoming enrollment in our company health care plan. We were warned that the cost was going to go up again, but this is absolutely insane.

We have a company blog where people can post things about the HR policies. As people started going thru their enrollment forms, they started to post their outrage on how much it went up. I saw ranges anywhere from 100% to 160% increase in health care costs this year. I'm afraid to look at mine.

I pay about $8,000 a year for my health care. It looks like its about to go up to $16,000 at a minimum, perhaps exceeding $20,000. And my company supposedly matches 50% of the cost., which puts the cost of that plan at $32,000 to $40,000 a year.

I'm curious if anyone else has started to receive information from their companies about their health plan costs, and have you noticed a drastic increase in the cost of your plans?

So much for the $5,000 credit that McCain is offering.

And btw - the company blog just got very politically focused for some odd reason.
post #81 of 82
This is an issue that needs attention and some relief for people. Insurance companies are making boatloads of money. Unless you get a surgery or if you have a chronic serious illness and you have meds you may use up the 40,000. Maybe,
But there will be loads of people you will never use that much and most people won't have surgeries every year so it is absurd.
McCain's plan is not so good when you crunch the numbers.
post #82 of 82
Obama is attempting to make health care available to everyone. He is addressing the availability issue for those with pre-existing conditions, which is long overdue.

Neither plan is perfect, but I think Obama's is a good start.
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