Purebreds in shelters?

ninacaliente

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I've seen it posted several times on TCS that few truly purebred cats end up in shelters. I understand that with some shelters, every colorpoint cat is labeled a Siamese or Ragdoll, every blue cat is labeled a Russian Blue, etc in an attempt to make the cat more desirable to adopters. I understand that good, reputable breeders screen buyers carefully and require their kittens to be returned to them if the owner cannot keep them, so few of them probably end up in shelters.

But that got me wondering about breeds with more extreme physical characteristics, such as flat-faced Persians for example. Surely there are BYB who are breeding pet quality cats such as these, and I seem to see such cats in shelters with some frequency. Now I am curious.

My question is, how many generations away from "purebred" would you have to get before you would stop seeing the extreme features of the original breed, such as the flat face of the Persian? Is it possible that a cat with all the features of a Persian (coat, flat face, etc) could, in fact, not be purebred?

TIA for indulging my curiosity. I know very little about genetics, but it is quite fascinating!
 

epona

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Some purebred cats do end up in shelters, but they are most likely to come from a BYB (such people should all be taken out and shot), especially if they look pet quality. There is also the occasional runaway, that if not microchipped may end up being rehomed via a shelter.

What I said elsewhere was that purebred cats from good breeders do not usually end up in shelters because:

* a good breeder will keep in contact with the adopters for the whole life of the cat
* will provide ongoing support and advice for any health/behavioural problems that arise
* will be aware of any problems or change in circumstances that may lead to a new home being needed
* will help find a new home for any cat they bred
* will take a cat they have bred back into their own home even if it's now elderly and rehoming is not a likely option

I hope that clarifies my position
 
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ninacaliente

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I agree with you that few quality cats from reputable breeders are likely to end up in shelters. I was just curious about how much moggie a cat could have in its ancestry before the cat would not be readily recognized by appearance as a purebred.

My Sprout, for example, looks like a Sphynx, but he was surrendered to the HS by his original owners and I know nothing about his background. I would think that would be a breed whose most recognizable characteristic (hairlessness) would not likely be displayed in a kitten if both parents were not Sphynx (pet quality or not). BUT I don't really have much knowledge about such things, so I thought I'd ask!


Just to clarify: I'm not arguing that shelters are overrun with Sphynx or any other purebred. I've just noticed that my local shelters seem to regularly have certain cats available, most notably Persians, who seem to fit the breed description in ways that extend beyond coat color.
 

epona

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Ahh I understand what you're asking I think, sorry if I missed the point in my previous answer, my mind was still on another thread I had posted on!

I think it depends on the breed, a breed with very extreme type that has been deliberately bred to look the way it does such as a Persian would be more likely to have Persian featured offspring if it mated with a longhaired moggie than a less extreme breed.

As an example where ancestry is not obvious, my Radar is half moggie and half Cornish Rex. To anyone except a Cornie expert, the main feature that identifies the breed from other long skinny breeds is the curly coat - and when they mate with a moggie the offspring will almost certainly all have a straight coat - so hardly anyone would look at a first generation Cornish/Moggie cross and be able to identify it as anything other than a moggie, although they may guess that it had some unidentifiable oriental/siamese somewhere in its past due to the larger than average ears and long body and legs.

Of course cats are territorial, and ferals/strays will often mate with relatives - the same way as this leads to populations of cats where many individuals in a colony have extra toes, it means that often several individuals in a colony will be similar in appearance. If say a Persian escaped and mated with a longhaired feral, then the offspring mated with each other or the Persian parent, the extreme features would not be that watered down, and may result in a local feral cat population where many of the cats have some feature that makes them look Persian.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

EDIT to add: I have seen Sprout's photo and have no doubt that he is a Sphynx, hairlessness is quite uncommon and is unlikely that he is the result of anything other than a planned mating between 2 Sphynx parents. It is unusual (but lucky for you of course!) that such an uncommon cat would end up in a shelter, I can only think it must be due to his previous home not letting the breeder know they couldn't keep him, although their rising popularity and high purchase price does mean that there are some BYBs cashing in on the breed
But there is no doubt in my mind that he is a purebred Sphynx.
 

kitytize

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I think Sphynx are a natural mutation? Which means you could possibly see a hairless moggie? As for Persians I have seen mixed babies from a purebred Persian that look nothing like a Persian. In the year I volunteered at a shelter I did see one Persian come in. It was an adult that the owners gave up. It was the only true purebred I seen come in.

Persians are by far the most popular breed so increases the risk of shelter surrenders. I have statistics written down of how many pedigreeds per breed were registered in all US registeries combined for 2007 and Persians were 16,000 next in line was the Bengal at only 6,000 followed closely by Maine Coons at 5,400. If anyone is interested maybe I can take the time sometime and type out the rest.
 

epona

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Originally Posted by kitytize

I think Sphynx are a natural mutation? Which means you could possibly see a hairless moggie? As for Persians I have seen mixed babies from a purebred Persian that look nothing like a Persian. In the year I volunteered at a shelter I did see one Persian come in. It was an adult that the owners gave up. It was the only true purebred I seen come in.
Hairlessness is a mutation that occurred naturally hence the origin of the breed, but it's very rare. Like both Cornish Rex (and the same for Devons) - the curly hair was a one off mutation in one kitten from straight-haired moggie parents, which was then deliberately bred back to the parent to see if it could be passed on. All Cornish Rex cats are descended from that one kitten (and similarly Devons all have one originator of the breed), and curly hair isn't something you see crop up in moggies except once in a blue moon. Hairlessness is a similar level of rarity.

True I have given a simplistic version - in Radar's Cornish/Moggie litter he was the one who looked long and skinny, the others resembled their father more in body shape.
 

mschauer

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Originally Posted by Epona

It is unusual (but lucky for you of course!) that such an uncommon cat would end up in a shelter, I can only think it must be due to his previous home not letting the breeder know they couldn't keep him,
I would imagine a true purebred could easily end up in a shelter if the owner moved some distance away from the breeder and didn't want to bother with the trouble and expense of returning the cat.

I've wondered about how often this might happen.
 

epona

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Originally Posted by mschauer

I would imagine a true purebred could easily end up in a shelter if the owner moved some distance away from the breeder and didn't want to bother with the trouble and expense of returning the cat.

I've wondered about how often this might happen.
All sorts of things can happen, often I think it's down to the adopters breaking the return agreement and taking things into their own hands (possibly through embarrassment, they don't want to tell the breeder). I know of one case where one breeder was alerted by another who had seen a cat advertised as free to good home on a free listings site - and recognised what lines it was likely to be from the look of the cat in the photo. It was confirmed that it was indeed one of that breeder's babies, and she tried to contact the family to get the cat returned to her, but never got a response and couldn't trace where the cat had ended up - it was an extremely distressing experience for her, not to know what had happened to one of her precious babies, and wanting it to come back home as things hadn't worked out.
 

addiebee

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In the four years I have been helping our little rescue group, we only had one "papered" cat come in, who .... If recall, was rescued from a breeder who was not doing right by her. She was a silver Persian. A real beauty. She was skinny and matted and had had too many litters.

She didn't last long. Got snapped up by someone!
 
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ninacaliente

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Originally Posted by Epona

Ahh I understand what you're asking I think, sorry if I missed the point in my previous answer, my mind was still on another thread I had posted on!

I think it depends on the breed, a breed with very extreme type that has been deliberately bred to look the way it does such as a Persian would be more likely to have Persian featured offspring if it mated with a longhaired moggie than a less extreme breed.

As an example where ancestry is not obvious, my Radar is half moggie and half Cornish Rex. To anyone except a Cornie expert, the main feature that identifies the breed from other long skinny breeds is the curly coat - and when they mate with a moggie the offspring will almost certainly all have a straight coat - so hardly anyone would look at a first generation Cornish/Moggie cross and be able to identify it as anything other than a moggie, although they may guess that it had some unidentifiable oriental/siamese somewhere in its past due to the larger than average ears and long body and legs.

Of course cats are territorial, and ferals/strays will often mate with relatives - the same way as this leads to populations of cats where many individuals in a colony have extra toes, it means that often several individuals in a colony will be similar in appearance. If say a Persian escaped and mated with a longhaired feral, then the offspring mated with each other or the Persian parent, the extreme features would not be that watered down, and may result in a local feral cat population where many of the cats have some feature that makes them look Persian.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

EDIT to add: I have seen Sprout's photo and have no doubt that he is a Sphynx, hairlessness is quite uncommon and is unlikely that he is the result of anything other than a planned mating between 2 Sphynx parents. It is unusual (but lucky for you of course!) that such an uncommon cat would end up in a shelter, I can only think it must be due to his previous home not letting the breeder know they couldn't keep him, although their rising popularity and high purchase price does mean that there are some BYBs cashing in on the breed
But there is no doubt in my mind that he is a purebred Sphynx.
Yes, this is what I was wondering about! I figured that the hairlessness of the Sphynx, like the curly coat of the Cornish Rex, would be lost with any first generation outcross (is outcross the right term?), and I wondered if that would apply to other physical features. I guess with Persians though there are probably many more genes involved in their bone structure that would retain the flat face in a mixed breeding?

Very interesting! And it explains why some of the cats in shelters who look very Persian to my very untrained eye may not be purebreds at all. Thanks for your thoughts!
 
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ninacaliente

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Originally Posted by kitytize

I think Sphynx are a natural mutation? Which means you could possibly see a hairless moggie? As for Persians I have seen mixed babies from a purebred Persian that look nothing like a Persian. In the year I volunteered at a shelter I did see one Persian come in. It was an adult that the owners gave up. It was the only true purebred I seen come in.

Persians are by far the most popular breed so increases the risk of shelter surrenders. I have statistics written down of how many pedigreeds per breed were registered in all US registeries combined for 2007 and Persians were 16,000 next in line was the Bengal at only 6,000 followed closely by Maine Coons at 5,400. If anyone is interested maybe I can take the time sometime and type out the rest.
If you ever have the time, I would be interested in those stats!

There is a quite large shelter in our metro area that usually has one or two "purebred" cats on their website. Right now they have 2 listed as Persians (and I'd never be able to tell if they weren't, but that doesn't mean much!). I've also seen Ragdolls, a pair of Cornish Rex, a British Shorthair, and an Exotic that I can remember. Many more Persians and Siamese. (At least, according to their labels at the shelter!) I remember seeing one cat labeled a DSH who actually did look exactly like a purebred Russian Blue to me. (Reminded me very much of photos of Renovia's kitty.) Considering the number of cats that go through that particular shelter though, the percentages are probably still very small.
 

goldenkitty45

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Probably a Selkirk Rex. Its not a Devon or Cornish cause in those 2 breeds if you bred rex to domestic sh - you only get straight coated kittens (those rex genes are recessive).

I think in the Selkirk's case its either a dominate or partially dominate gene where you can get a mix of straight and curled kittens. The type IMO leans to the Selkirk Rex.
 

kitytize

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Originally Posted by NinaCaliente

I guess with Persians though there are probably many more genes involved in their bone structure that would retain the flat face in a mixed breeding?
In the 2 cases I have seen personally none of the kittens had flat faces or even longhair. If I had not seen the mother I would have not thought the kittens were Persian mixes.
 

epona

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Yes, it would be part Selkirk Rex. If you mate Selkirk x straighthaired you can get curly kittens unlike with other rex breeds. The Selkirk is growing in popularity so it doesn't surprise me that crossbreeds are starting to show up.

I can imagine BYBs mating them with moggies to deliberately get curly coated moggies to sell for high prices (they'd only need one male unneutered Selkirk and lots of female moggies, thus keeping profits to a maximum), also if a breeding Selkirk were to escape and mate in a feral colony the curly hair would start to pop up all over the place in the colony as it is a dominant gene and so can't hide for generations, it would be obvious from the first litter born as a result of mating with that cat and those kittens would also pass it on to some of their offspring.
 
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ninacaliente

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Wow, I am learning a lot in this thread!
I'd seen photos of Selkirks before, but I had no idea that their genetics was that different from Cornish or Devon Rexes. Fascinating! I wonder if there are any books out there on feline genetics?
 
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ninacaliente

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Originally Posted by abbycats

Why do they want $303 adoption fee? Thats high for a animal society. I hope the little one finds a loving forever home.
I hadn't even noticed that! I guess the adoption fee must be higher because of the Rex background. The standard fee for a young kitten at that shelter is about $130.
 

epona

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Originally Posted by kitytize

In the 2 cases I have seen personally none of the kittens had flat faces or even longhair. If I had not seen the mother I would have not thought the kittens were Persian mixes.
Maybe I picked a bad example when I used the Persian - longhair is a recessive gene so if mated with a shorthair cat that doesn't carry longhair, all the kittens would be shorthair. A kitten is less obviously a Persian mix to most people if it doesn't have longhair. BTW the Persian mixes I have seen have looked very obviously part Persian to me, in facial structure.

A shorthair example might have been better. How many threads on here do people ask "is my cat part Siamese?" And often the response is "if it doesn't have papers it is a DSH but it does look as though it has Siamese or Oriental somewhere in its ancestry, due to the large ears and long legs". IMO an Oriental type mix is very usually obvious as such in the first generation, less so from then on, although if inbreeding occurs the Oriental features will remain for longer and be more obvious in subsequent generations. Obviously there are exceptions - if an Oriental mated with a very stocky round-faced moggy, the Oriental influence may not be obvious in many of the kittens. But if it mated with an average to fine-boned moggy, the Oriental would be much more obvious.

One tool which breeders use in some breeds (where it is allowed by the relevant cat registry) is "outcrossing". This is essentially crossbreeding to a different breed. It is useful in new or some rare breeds to increase genetic diversity within a breed, and with breeds such as the Oriental has been used to introduce the wide variety of colours available today. The Oriental in its history has been outcrossed to Russian Blues, Abyssinians, and Moggies among others. Breeders would never have done this if the Oriental type and facial structure simply disappeared when crossbred. Tabby Orientals were the result of an OSH x Domestic shorthair mating, and the kittens retained much of the Oriental type. The kittens were then mated back to purebred Orientals to introduce the tabby genes, and it did not dilute the look of the Oriental.
 

kitytize

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Originally Posted by NinaCaliente

If you ever have the time, I would be interested in those stats!
These numbers do not take in account for cross registration so they could actually be less considering some cats are registered in more than one registry or considering some cats never get registered maybe that would make up the difference? These are for all US registries combined. 2007 statistics are

Persians/Himalayan/Exotics: ~16,000
Bengals: ~6000
Maine Coon - ~ 5400
Ragdoll - ~ 4800
Siamese/Oriental/Balinese - 2000
Sphynx - 1800
Abyssinian - 1400
Norwegian Forest Cats - 1100
British Shorthair - 1000
Birman - 960
Siberians - 950
Savannahs - 880
American Shorthair - 770
Tonkinese - 740
Devon Rex - 650
Cornish Rex - 590
Russian Blue - 580
Burmese - 540
Scottish Fold - 520

The rest had less than 500 cats registered across associations. And I do not have those numbers.

I do not know other breeds in the other associations but for CFA here are the breeds that follow in order after Scottich Folds so as you go down the list the registration numbers would go down so you can guess at the number.

Ocicat
Russian Blue
Egyptian Mau
Somali
Manx
Siberian
Japanese Bobtail
Selkirk Rex
Chartreux
Turkish Angora
American Curl
Colorpoint Shorthair
European Burmese
Bombay
Singapura
American Bobtail
Korat
Havana Brown
Turkish Van
Javanese
Ragamuffin
American Wirehair
Laperm

So am taking a wild guess but less than 60,000 pedigreeds are born a year. So how many moggies are born a year do you all think? 1 million or more? Or wouldn't it be more like 5mil? since pedigreed cats make up such a small percentage of cats?

Intereresting link here

http://www.breedingpedigreedcats.com...2004302008.pdf
 
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