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Whata

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thought you might want to see my new son, Osiris Whata Influence of Masmera. Highest Scoring Kitten in his first show two weekends ago and last weekend, 2nd Highest Scoring Kitten! Pictures taken at 4 months and 10 days...



I just love this pic! He thinks he's a T rex!



As of now, he has some 180+ points and is probably currently ranked 7th in Asia.

BTW, he's red, not ruddy! Amazing how pictures lie!

Enjoy!

ETA: The muddy markings around his neck is only apparent in pictures - fading as we speak!
post #2 of 25
Those ears! I love the size and set. He goes home with you after the International, right?
post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
Those ears! I love the size and set. He goes home with you after the International, right?
Nope, he's here with me now! I'm actually contemplating entering him in the Internationals but that may just be too much of a trip for him - especially since he'll be home after another two shows in HK!

The one coming home with me after the Internationals will be my new queen
post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abymummy View Post
Nope, he's here with me now! I'm actually contemplating entering him in the Internationals but that may just be too much of a trip for him - especially since he'll be home after another two shows in HK!

The one coming home with me after the Internationals will be my new queen
I'd see how he handles the trips over to HK. If he travels well, I wouldn't hold him back. Do you have a direct flight to Atlanta?

Of course, I'm being a little selfish and want to see him in person

I'm thinking I might bring Niles along, not sure yet. We're not going for anything right now (blasted hormones got in the way,) but once he's a Premier, game on!
post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
No direct flight to Atlanta sadly...one of the main reasons I'm only contemplating and not bringing him! He has a tough November/December schedule anyway and I really don't want to put him through so much stress.

He has a show on the 2nd (confirmed) and 3rd weekend (not confirmed) of November and the 2nd weekend of December will be his last show as a kitten. The show on the 3rd weekend of December will be his first as an adult.

His meowmy will be even more exhausted! I've been asked to clerk or Master Clerk on the last weekend of November in Jakarta (this one follows my clerking at the Internationals) and 1st weekend of December in Singapore (can't bring cats over there due to quarantine issues).
post #6 of 25
Lovely coat and ticking and love the ears too

Looking forward to meeting you when you come over. Need to exchange phone numbers and info to pick you up in Minneapolis
post #7 of 25
He is very beautiful!

When you say he is red not ruddy, do you mean he is sex-linked red (MLH1 gene) rather than aby ruddy (that we have a different name for here but is caused by what we call here the "light brown" gene and results in cinnamon in other breeds such as OSH that I am more familiar with?) Too confusing we call them different colour names, I don't know whether I'm coming or going!???

I know that here in the UK we have tortie abys which must be caused by sex-linked red and x-inactivation mosaicism, are you going that route yourself? Torties don't have championship status here yet, but are in the assessment stage, there are several stages in GCCF to reach full championship status.

If I've got it wrong let me know, I am curious to the point of bursting

He is one gorgeous looking cat!
post #8 of 25
I think UK and Australia call our "red" abys - sorrel. How are you getting tortie abys? Here we have ruddy, red, blue, fawn.

I've heard of cream abys, but where are they getting the red gene from? The red abys are not sex-linked - its brown/chocolate tipping instead of the black.
post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I think UK and Australia call our "red" abys - sorrel. How are you getting tortie abys? Here we have ruddy, red, blue, fawn.

I've heard of cream abys, but where are they getting the red gene from? The red abys are not sex-linked - its brown/chocolate tipping instead of the black.
Tortie abys are females from 1 sex-linked red parent and 1 non red-series parent, same as in any breed or moggy. More colours in aby are accepted here, and we have abys that are sex-linked red, so can produce tortie offspring. What we call sorrel in abys is not sex-linked red, it's the same as cinnamon in other breeds.

Maybe I have misunderstood when the cat was described as 'red, not ruddy'- to me that indicates sex-linked red, rather than the 'light brown' (ie cinnamon, or sorrel when describing abyssinians in the UK) gene. There is a bit of a divide between us when it comes to terminology in this breed
post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 
I tried replying earlier but my computer wouldn't let me!

Ruddy = Tawny or Sorrel
Red = Cinnamon

Generally speaking, agouti and colour in Abys are not sex linked. If you do a Ruddy x Red (CFA speak pure lines, 0380s) you would get 50% of each though ruddy can be an incomplete dominant (just like the Aby gold eyes are incomplete dominants over green).

If you do a Ruddy x Red breeding, 0360s (which just means the lines carry dilute) then it is more than entirely possible to get the rainbow litter (Ruddy, red, blue and fawn).

No offense intended but I don't think I'd want to see a tortie aby, it would spoil the whole look of elegance!
post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abymummy View Post
I tried replying earlier but my computer wouldn't let me!

Ruddy = Tawny or Sorrel
Red = Cinnamon

Generally speaking, agouti and colour in Abys are not sex linked. If you do a Ruddy x Red (CFA speak pure lines, 0380s) you would get 50% of each though ruddy can be an incomplete dominant (just like the Aby gold eyes are incomplete dominants over green).

If you do a Ruddy x Red breeding, 0360s (which just means the lines carry dilute) then it is more than entirely possible to get the rainbow litter (Ruddy, red, blue and fawn).

No offense intended but I don't think I'd want to see a tortie aby, it would spoil the whole look of elegance!
I was having trouble with the site last night too! Thanks for that, the different names we have for the colours here is really confusing, here red is sex linked red in abys, I don't know whether I'm coming or going! Personally I don't like the torties either, here we've managed to introduce all colours into the aby including red/cream and chocolate/lilac as well as silvers, although I admit I am unclear as to why exactly, I thought they were fine the way they were! I always thought one of the beauties of the aby was that you could have a red looking cat without it being sex linked, I don't honestly see why anyone thought torties would be a good idea in this breed.

ETA: Having said that I did see a Usual Silver Aby at a show once and omg I wish I would have been able to smuggle him out under my coat he was a stunning creature, so they are let off the hook for that one, I do think it is a combination that works.
post #12 of 25
Do you guys allow red (sex-linked) orientals in the aby gene pool. I'm still trying to figure out how the other color genes got in there - has to be an outcross somewhere.
post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Do you guys allow red (sex-linked) orientals in the aby gene pool. I'm still trying to figure out how the other color genes got in there - has to be an outcross somewhere.


I know the silvers came from the ASH - it's in the history of the Silvers but the other colors??? Why would anyone want to mess with anything already so perfect????
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Do you guys allow red (sex-linked) orientals in the aby gene pool. I'm still trying to figure out how the other color genes got in there - has to be an outcross somewhere.
I thought that the red Aby is genetically a ticked brown tabby that has been selectively bred for very high rufousing.
http://www.egyptianmaus.co.uk/genetics.html
And this high rufousing is why it would be very difficult to breed a clean silver Aby; lots of rufousing = lots of tarnish.
So I'm curious to see one Though I wonder how in the world silver Aby breeders will keep their silver clean when they are breeding from the breed with the most rufousing in the world!
post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 
I personally think that Silver Somalis are way better looking than Silver Abys, the agouti is so much more apparent in the Somalis than Abys...point is moot though since CFA have not approved them anyway...and I don't really know if the breeders have applied for status in CFA.
post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Here's a pic of his red-ness with Becky O

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Do you guys allow red (sex-linked) orientals in the aby gene pool. I'm still trying to figure out how the other color genes got in there - has to be an outcross somewhere.
A potted history of the UK Aby -

Silver was bred out of Abys in the UK in the early 1900s - as FerrisCat quite rightly notes this was due to the trouble it caused in breeding clear colours, it often resulted in usuals with poor rufousing and silvers with tarnish - but was reintroduced in the '60s by one outcross to a silver spotted BSH called Culverden Mercury.

Chocolate was introduced in the '70s by one outcross to a chocolate point Siamese.

I have also heard of outcrossing to Burmese/Asian, domestic cats, and to an 'imported African wildcat' (this was many decades ago now!), and while kittens without ticking were usually not used for breeding, there was a solid black Aby that was quite prolific in the 1930s.

The GCCF only got their act together in 1978 and enforced recorded pedigrees for the breed, before that breeders could take a cat off the street and if it looked like an Aby they could register it as such and use it for breeding.

Add to all the above that the UK Aby was all but wiped out in the '70s by rapid spread of FeLV between the few Aby catteries that existed (does anyone else have their head in their hands at this point?) so in the aftermath outcrossing would have been rife I'm sure - it's more of a wonder that we have Abys at all in the UK, and not difficult to see why for many decades UK Abys have been popping out kittens in the whole range of colours. It's only recently that red-series and tortie have been considered for full Championship status by the GCCF, they aren't there yet - but they have been in existence and been bred by a handful of breeders for ages, so there was no need for a more recent outcross to introduce sex linked red.

A table of UK Aby colours
post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
I have enough problems producing fantastic ruddys and now reds - all these other colours as well???? I just looked at the points awarded for colour and ticking under GCCF - 20 each for a total of 40 for coat! Good God!
post #19 of 25
Interesting background. One of those cats must have been carrying the red sex-linked gene.

For now, at least the Ocis are free of the red gene because the aby/siamese used did NOT include the red sex-linked gene. And the silvers came from the silver classic ASH so no red there

I'm happy with the 12 colors we have. Am learning how those (cinnamon/lavendar/fawn) colors work
post #20 of 25
Whata!! I love you!!! What a sweet little aby
post #21 of 25
Oh! I can't see his pics on this computer and will have to wait until I get home. I can't wait to see this little guy. By the way, I've asked my boyfriend to bring over his video camera so I can borrow it for a while. I'm hoping to get some good video of Maggie since she's so difficult to take pics of because she's always moving around. I plan to post some here as soon as I get anything worth showing.
post #22 of 25
He is gorgeous !!!
Daisy
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epona View Post
A potted history of the UK Aby -

Silver was bred out of Abys in the UK in the early 1900s - as FerrisCat quite rightly notes this was due to the trouble it caused in breeding clear colours, it often resulted in usuals with poor rufousing and silvers with tarnish - but was reintroduced in the '60s by one outcross to a silver spotted BSH called Culverden Mercury.
The BSH thing blows me away, their type is so very different from the Aby's! I wonder why Silver Maus were not initially used, since there are many similarities between the Aby and Mau standards.
post #24 of 25
Maybe cause they didn't want the spotted gene in there. Mau's would have given silver, but also the spotted tabby.

You do have shaded silver BSH, which might have been used.
post #25 of 25
Possibly, but I would think that paint jobs are a lot easier to correct than problems with boning and head structure.

Silver ASH cats were used with the Maus way back when imports were unavailable. I can still pick out the Maus that have them in their background. Persians were also used with some of the Van lines, and so you still see cats with short bodies, round eyes, little ears, and short legs.
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