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What do you think this breed is?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hi there,
This is my girlfriend's cat. She is very long hair and we found her outside when she was a kitten. She is one year old now. We live in Turkey and we only have Persian, Turkish Angora and Turkish Van breeds over here as the long hairs.





post #2 of 20
She's just a mixed longhair domestic. Maybe a little of some or all of the longhairs in the area. None of those breeds stands out as being dominate. She is a pretty black/white. I like her one black front leg and the other white - looks cool
post #3 of 20
Greetings!

I didn't realize we had members in Turkey! I'd like to send you a PM, but can't seem to be able to do so

Without registration papers, your kitty would only be considered a Domestic Longhair. Cats from Turkey's random population can become registered as Turkish Vans (in CFA), but I believe that standards today state that all Angoras must be able to trance their ancestry to the cats at the Ankara zoo.

Your beautiful girl needs a little bit more white to be a Turkish Van Her ears are too small for an Angora, so like many Turkish cats, I can see qualities from both breeds in her. But any way you cut it, she's just lovely. That little black nose is adorable!
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your posts.
I think I cant use PM because I dont have enough posts (is there a rule like that?)

I thought Beti has some persian blood in him because of short tail, long coat and short nose but who knows.

Btw, as I am from Turkey maybe I can give you some information about Turkish Vans. The first Turkish Van was taken out of Turkey by a tourist couple. They bought these cats from Turkey however the cats they bought as Turkish Vans were not pure breed. Today, all the Turkish Vans outside of Turkey was born by these hybrids. The pure breed Van cats in Turkey is actually a totally white cat with odd eyes (there is usually a small black spot between ears).

Today, the cat known as Turkish Van in the western is a totally different cat. The real pure breed Turkish Vans are in a special breeding programme in Ankara (Angora) Zoo and in the Van Yuzuncu Yil University there is a Van Cat Research and Application Center.

Lately, I think the cat associations in USA and other countries are starting to see the difference between the pure breed Turkish Van and the western Turkish Van. I heard that they are going to recognize this breed as "Van Kedi". However, since the pure breed Turkish Vans are only popular in Turkey I think they need to be spread to other countries to be recognised.
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
BTW, I think there is also a new breed called Turkish Anatolian.
post #6 of 20
Does the Turkish Zoo still keep and breed your Turkish Angoras? Friend of mine breeds them and one of her original TA's was from the Zoo as a foundation cat
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozadars View Post
Thanks for your posts.
I think I cant use PM because I dont have enough posts (is there a rule like that?)

I thought Beti has some persian blood in him because of short tail, long coat and short nose but who knows.

Today, the cat known as Turkish Van in the western is a totally different cat. The real pure breed Turkish Vans are in a special breeding programme in Ankara (Angora) Zoo and in the Van Yuzuncu Yil University there is a Van Cat Research and Application Center.

Lately, I think the cat associations in USA and other countries are starting to see the difference between the pure breed Turkish Van and the western Turkish Van. I heard that they are going to recognize this breed as "Van Kedi". However, since the pure breed Turkish Vans are only popular in Turkey I think they need to be spread to other countries to be recognised.
Yes, his short nose is definitely like a Persian How does his fur feel? More like rabbit fur or more like cotton?

I agree that the Van Kedi should be recognized as its own breed. There are those who want the two breeds to become one and the same, but I fully disagree with this. The Van Kedi and the Turkish Van have two distinct histories. They are not the same cat, and since CFA's policy on natural breeds (such as the Turkish Van and Van Kedi) is that they can not be used to make new breeds; they should not be bred together.

I think one of the greatest obstacles the Van Kedi has in becoming a new breed is that they are considered Turkish National Treasures. From what I understand, it is very difficult to take a true Van Kedi (especially one with odd eyes) out of Turkey. I am in complete support of establishing the Van Kedi as a breed, and if I ever had one, I would love to be able to show it in CFA in order to help promote it in the West. However, a new breed needs many breeders and those breeders must show their cats before they are accepted for competition.

Finally, if I am not mistaken, the Van Kedi has already been recognized for preliminary status by the GCCF. Slowly but surely!
post #8 of 20
I agree with the first reply- definitely a domestic short hair. You can now have your cat's DNA determined and discover what breeds he or she comes from if you really need to know. I am not sure I see a Persian nose- and I am not all that fond of some of the Persian noses if only because I have seen some health issues at the clinic, especially in newborns it seems - usually brought in by rescue groups or new breeders (often unlicensed, ie not part of a legitimate assoc) who breed Persians and have babies and or kittens with breathing troubles. I like this one's cute little nose. She sure is cute!!

As for a new breed -are the Van Kedi not already this to some extent -the problem is that "Vankedisi" cats have severe restrictions on export from Turkey so there are not many of them available for show and judging. There are more in Europe for obvious reasons. All I know is:
TICA is considering including them
GCCF (aka Cat Fancy) has allocated them for Preliminary status, where they can be shown in Assessment Classes.
FiFe (European show group) only recognizes the auburn/white offspring from the white Vankedisi as full Turkish Vans.
Felis Britannica accepts the white Vankedisi and their auburn/white siblings as Turkish Vans. The auburn/white is at Championship status and the Vankedisi is classed as a Turkish Van of new color.
So I am unsure if they will be a breed of their own? I am sure breeders here are well aware that the blue eyed Vankedisis are more highly prized than the amber eyed. Breeders aim for the odd eye look of course!

Your cat is beautiful!!
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post
I agree with the first reply- definitely a domestic short hair. You can now have your cat's DNA determined and discover what breeds he or she comes from
There is no service currently available that can test a cat from the random population and tell you what breeds are present. The cat fancy is much younger than the dog fancy, and when you get down to it, there is little genetic difference between a top show Persian and a Domestic Long Hair. I know of one company that offers this service, and IMHO, they are nothing short of charlatans.
That being said, I would suggest the OP send in a sample of his cats DNA (cheek swab with a q-tip) to Dr. Lyons at UC Davis. Much of her current research involves Turkish cats. If you're interested in hearing more, shoot me an email. My contact info is on my webpage (www.mimesiscats.com)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post
As for a new breed -are the Van Kedi not already this to some extent -the problem is that "Vankedisi" cats have severe restrictions on export from Turkey so there are not many of them available for show and judging. There are more in Europe for obvious reasons. All I know is:
TICA is considering including them
GCCF (aka Cat Fancy) has allocated them for Preliminary status, where they can be shown in Assessment Classes.
FiFe (European show group) only recognizes the auburn/white offspring from the white Vankedisi as full Turkish Vans.
Felis Britannica accepts the white Vankedisi and their auburn/white siblings as Turkish Vans. The auburn/white is at Championship status and the Vankedisi is classed as a Turkish Van of new color.
So I am unsure if they will be a breed of their own? I am sure breeders here are well aware that the blue eyed Vankedisis are more highly prized than the amber eyed. Breeders aim for the odd eye look of course!
Which of these registries view the Van Kedisi as its own breed? Which registries see it as part of the Turkish Van breed?

CFA (the world's largest registry of pedigreed cats and where I register and show my own Turkish Vans) does not allow the white Van Kedi to be bred with registered Turkish Vans. Turkish Van cats that descend from white cats are not eligible to be registered or shown in CFA. CFA also does not recognize the Van Kedi, though I personally would be delighted to help support anybody who wanted to take steps to establish the Van Kedi as its own separate breed. I feel that the Van Kedi is its own breed and needs to be protected from out-crossing to cats that are considered hybrids in Turkey (though I do lve those hybrids)

TICA allows the all-white Turkish Van, which I imagine are descended from Van Kedisi, but these white cats are not considered their own separate breed.

The Van Kedi is not recognized as a separate breed by the majority of the major registration associations. So when I say there are steps that breeders need to take before the Van Kedi can become a new and established breed, I mean it. Don't even get me started on the all-white Turkish Van issue
post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 
If you take a trip around pet shops in Turkey, you can see thousands and millions of cats labeled as Turkish Van and Turkish Angora. Actually in Turkey, any white cat is labeled as Van and Angora. Unfortunately, we dont have any cat associations in Turkey and people are not sensitive about the purity of the breeds. For exaple, two of my friends have white cats (one of them with odd eye) and they are both sold as Van cats. However, they both have very short hair.

I think a genetic research must be done about Turkish cats, before they degenerate more. I even have doubts about the purity of Turkish Angoras in Ankara Zoo and Van Cats in Van University.

I think I can send Dr. Lyons samples from a couple of cats. However, I believe it would be much more informative if he has a chance to visit Turkey. He could get samples from Ankara Zoo and Van University as well as cats sold in pet shops and even cats in household.

I think a genetic a research should be done from the samples below and should be compared to see the relationship between these cats.

Turkish Van outside of Turkey
Turkish Angora outside of Turkey
Anatolian Cat outside of Turkey
Van Kedi in Van University
Van Kedi in Ankara Zoo
Turkish Angora in Ankara Zoo
Van Kedi sold in petshops and kept in household
Ankara Kedi sold in petshops and kept in household
Domestic long hairs sold in petshops, kept in households and alley cats
Domestic short hairs sold in petshops and kept in households and allet cats
Persian cats
post #11 of 20
I have been wondering what makes a Van cat It seems that any white cat can be labled as a Van cat. Perhaps pet shops are quick to call a white cat a "Van Cat" so that they can sell it at a higher price. . .

Recently, National Geograhic's Explorer did a documentary on Dr. Lyons and her research. It was called "The Science of Cats." Very interesting stuff!

While I'm not sure if Dr. Lyons has been to Turkey, I know that there are teams of researchers that gather samples from cats and send them to the UC Davis laboratory. As with any research, the more data, the more accurate the final results. Since Turkish cats have turned out to have the most genetic variation, they are good candidates to have been the very first cats ever domesticated. You can read more about this here: http://www.showcatsonline.com/x/tracking-the-cat.shtml

Also, if I am not mistaken, based on the samples Dr. Lyons received from breeders, the Turkish Angora was found to have absolutely no genetic variation on one particular site. I'll have to track down where exactly I read this. . . I agree that it would be very interesting to see how these results compare to the Angoras in Turkey. The article above compares the Angoras to the random cat population in Turkey, but not the Angoras in the zoo or in petshops.

Finally, you can find the contact info for Dr. Lyons here:
http://www.cfa.org/exhibitors/feline...e-project.html
She was very quick to respond to my emails
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
Finally, you can find the contact info for Dr. Lyons here:
http://www.cfa.org/exhibitors/feline...e-project.html
She was very quick to respond to my emails
Ozadars, I sent Dr. Lyons an email (same address on above webpage) and she looks forward to hearing from you
post #13 of 20
Well to complicate things more, in the US, a "van" cat is a breed AND a color pattern (white with minimum color on head and tail - limited to one/two body spots but ideal is color only on head/tail).
post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 
I send her an e-mail. Thanks for your help

What about Anatolian cat? Ever heard of it?
Check this website
http://catouweb.free.fr/Races/Anatolian.htm
http://www.geocities.com/pekeavenue/AnatolianCat.html

Maybe white short-hair cats sold in petshops as Van or Angora are Anatolian Cat? What about millions of short hair cats living in the streets in Turkey, are they also Anatolian Cat?
post #15 of 20
Thanks Ferris Cat- we were told there was a way. Difficult work- some research and experimental but no service per se. We did learn about gene therapy though: Ex:

Cat DNA secrets may help against human and feline diseases

BY AMY SACKS
DAILY NEWS WRITER

Wednesday, November 21st 2007, 7:12 PM
Attendant Kengi Ruiz looks after this threesome at Animal Haven in Flushing, Queens. The cats have feline form of HIV.

Attendant Kengi Ruiz looks after this threesome at Animal Haven in Flushing, Queens. The cats have feline form of HIV.

One feline is proving that cats are the spice of life.

Scientists have decoded the DNA of an Abyssinian cat named Cinnamon, saying the exciting discovery may help forge new ground in treatments for both feline and human diseases.

"It's like finding the Rosetta stone - or a fossil," said Dr. Steve O'Brien, chief of the National Cancer Institute's Laboratory of Genomic Diversity, which spearheaded the sequencing project.

O'Brien says the discovery means the cat can be used as an animal model for human hereditary and infectious diseases, genome evolution and comparative studies of the 37 species within the Felidae family.

"We can determine why a domestic cat is tame but a wild cat isn't," he added.

The study adds cats to the roughly two dozen mammals whose DNA has been unraveled, a list that includes dogs, chimps, rats, mice, cows and, of course, humans.

So why the feline? O'Brien says cats get more than 200 diseases that resemble human illnesses, and knowing the details of their genetic makeup should help in the search for vaccines and treatments.

The list includes FIV (a cat form of HIV), SARS, diabetes, retinal disease and spina bifida.

Still, aside from helping combat human disease, what's in it for Fluffy?

Veterinarian Dr. Arnold Plotnick, who runs Manhattan Cat Specialists, says knowing the cat's genetic fingerprint can help better manage health care and diagnosis.

"Gene therapy is an expanding field, and knowing the details of the feline genome has the potential to design new therapies for treating cats," said Plotnick.

It's likely that veterinarians will be able to tailor treatments by selecting the best drug and the best dose for that particular animal.

Animal experts say the promise is that we will be able to manipulate the DNA and correct underlying hereditary problems before they strike.

Still, your own kitty's health may have to wait. For now, new treatment options, such as gene therapy and vaccines, remain farther down the road.

"Veterinarians will be beneficiaries of research that will identify the genetic inconsistencies, and the therapies that will be developed will restore genetic harmony," said veterinary cardiologist Dr. Frank Pipers, director of telecardiology services at VDIC.

Ultimately, however, it will come down to finances.

Because research costs are always the limiting factor as to what veterinarians can study, the cat diseases most likely to be addressed are those that mirror the human diseases, Pipers said.

Martin Stevens, vice president for animal research issues at the Humane Society of the United States, says the discovery is a mixed bag and he fears it will increase then number of cats used in laboratory research.

But Patricia Olson, a veterinarian who heads the Morris Animal Foundation, which funds humane animal studies, disagrees. She says testing can be done with the population of animals in the home and not using laboratory animals.

The identification of the dog genome a few years ago has allowed breeders to work on reducing the incidence of diseases prone to certain breeds.

And scientists at the National Human Genome Research Institute believe canine genome research is particularly useful in studying cancer.

The most exciting spinoff of the canine genome may be the Canine Breed Heritage Test, by MetaMorphix Inc., which allows dog owners to determine the mix of their mutts.

So far the Maryland-based company says it has processed over 20,000 requests to determine a dog's mix.

So will cat owners soon be able to determine if Fluffy's part Russian blue? The company says not in the near future - it's still too busy dealing with the dogs.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozadars View Post
I send her an e-mail. Thanks for your help

What about Anatolian cat? Ever heard of it?
Check this website
http://catouweb.free.fr/Races/Anatolian.htm
http://www.geocities.com/pekeavenue/AnatolianCat.html

Maybe white short-hair cats sold in petshops as Van or Angora are Anatolian Cat? What about millions of short hair cats living in the streets in Turkey, are they also Anatolian Cat?
I've heard of the Anatolian, but I never seen a cat registered as one in person. I met someone recently who has two as pets; I will have to ask for some pictures. Based on what I've read, the standard is written to represent a shorthaired Turkish Van. However, Anatolians can come in any color. So I would imagine that many of the shorthaired cats in Turkey can be considered Anatolians if their outward appearance fits the standard.
The cool thing about natural breeds is that they can be found anywhere within their native country. So if these larger shorthaired cats have coats that feel like rabbit fur, modified wedge shaped heads that are blunt at the base, and strong muscular bodies, I don't see any reason why they WOULDN'T be considered Anatolian cats.
However, not all Turkish shorthaired cats are going to be Antolian. For example, the Egyptian Mau can naturally found in Turkey; a distinctly spotted tabby with a moderate build, modified wedge shaped heads, and ears that are set to extend the wedge. These cats are going to be much smaller in build than an Anatolian.
As for the shorthaired white cats that are sold as Angoras and Vans, I wonder if it has something to do with the shorthairs that are now present in the Ankara Zoo and Van Cat Center's populations. Maybe a few sneaky Anatolians visited the Angoras and Vans
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
Also, if I am not mistaken, based on the samples Dr. Lyons received from breeders, the Turkish Angora was found to have absolutely no genetic variation on one particular site. I'll have to track down where exactly I read this. . . I agree that it would be very interesting to see how these results compare to the Angoras in Turkey. The article above compares the Angoras to the random cat population in Turkey, but not the Angoras in the zoo or in petshops.
You can find the article here; http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/PHR/LyonsDen/FIS.htm

Much more detailed than the one at showcatsonline, but then, look at the source
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post
Thanks Ferris Cat- we were told there was a way. Difficult work- some research and experimental but no service per se. We did learn about gene therapy though:
I wouldn't doubt that there is a way (see above article in regards to Turkish Angoras) but anybody that claims they can already can do it is pulling your leg. And I imagine that some breeds would be much more difficult to identify than others.

The article on gene therapy is fascinating, thank you for sharing!
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Aint it complicated

Actually what makes it complicated is that we are talking about the same species but so many variations. Lets say there is a population of Anatolian short hair, Angora or Van cats in an area; if you introduce just one single foreign cat in that area, 10 or 20 years later there might be hundereds if not thousands of cats carring genes of that strage cat. Thus, its very hard to protect the purity. There are some things in common between the cats living in the streets of Turkey and differences. They usually have large ears and similar body shape. Shape of the faces can differ a lot and coat lenght might differ but short hair is more common.

Check this website. It is a forum about adopting homeless cats/kittens. Although its Turkish, you can check the threads. They have photos of kittens and you can see what they have in common and what not.
http://www.kedigen.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
post #20 of 20
I have to agree with you, Ozadars. And if that one foreign cat has a dominant trait (such as SH) then the native population begins to resemble the foreign cat even more quickly.

As the world becomes more open through easier international commerce, populations of cats become vulnerable to hybridization. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, without controlled breeding programs, natural breeds that exist in only a very small part of the world (such as the Van Kedi) are at risk of being lost. Outside of the Ankara Zoo and Van Cat center, I wonder if the Angoras and Van Kedi protected in any other way? You mentioned that there are many pet shops that sell Angora and Van Kedi kittens, but it would be a tragedy if turned out that the people who just wanted kittens to sell were the only ones preserving the breed (and not even intentionally). . . pet shops here, at least, are notorious for not caring what happens to the kitten once you walk out their doors. So they're not really breeding to avoid future genetic problems, or inbreeding, or even disease. . .

Many breeders work hard to assist with preservation and promotion of their breed. Some breeds, such as the Persian and the Siamese, don't really need that sort of help. They are already well known. Other breeds, like the Turkish Angora and the Turkish Van, are much more uncommon. I decided to become involved with Turkish Vans because I love the breed and came to learn that it was in dire need of people willing to work with it.

And thank you for sharing that website; I'm having a lot of fun looking at all the different cats!

ETA: Just a thought I wanted to add:
The Japanese Bobtail is the native cat to Japan. Just like the Turkish breeds, you can find Japanese Bobtails everywhere in Japan. And just like some of the Turkish breeds, these Japanese cats can be registered with CFA as a pure Japanese Bobtail. There is a woman in Japan who rescues cats and makes sure that every bobtailed cat she finds is registered as a Japanese Bobtail before she adopts them out to a new home (process is simple and cost is small, $8 per cat.) Maybe if there were a way to register cats in Turkey as Turkish Angoras, Van Kedi, Anatolians, or Turkish Vans, that would be a step towards promoting and protecting all of the different Turkish breeds.
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