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Russia: "The world can forget about (Georgia's) territorial integrity"

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403462,00.html

For anyone who has been watching how Putin and Russia this shouldn't be surprising. They've been trying to get back up to Cold War status for a while, flying bears over US territory, building military, as well as Putin's blatant manipulating of the Russian Constitution to remain in power with a puppet President while he runs the country as Prime Minister.

The biggest question now is...what do we (the world, not just the US) do now???
post #2 of 11
To put it bluntly; I don't know. I've been reading all I can on the situation, but both sides (and their supporters) and throwing out propaganda by the bucket full. Russia is claiming Georgia was conducting ethnic cleansing, Georgia is claiming that the US is coming in to take over airfields and communications, US analysts and pundits insist that the entire situation was staged by Russia, Russia claims that they are only backing a breakaway ethnic area that is in danger of being over run.

And news teams are being stopped and turned back from spots all over the region.

I think we'll be awhile sorting this one out.
post #3 of 11
What Skippy said pretty much.

It's an extremely complicated situation. Both sides are spewing out propaganda and accurate information is hard to come by.

Overall there's not much that the US can do really. It would be insane to go into a direct military confrontation with Russia.

From what I've gathered the Georgians really really hate the Russians (understandably really) but the breakaway provinces that are being fought over hate the Georgians as much as the Georgians hate Russia.

Russia seems to have over stepped a bit and gone over into Georgia proper rather than staying 100% inside the contested area. Although they've fortunately not gone and invaded Georgia proper yet.

The territorial integrity being talked about is sticking to keeping the areas that really don't want to be a part of Georgia inside Georgia. One reason the people there are pretty unified about that is that a while ago most 'proper' Georgians were chased out of the area leaving mostly people who identify as Russian and now have Russian passports. So in some ways it would make sense that Georgia would just let those provinces go. They're filled with people who don't want to be a part of the country and have been ruling themselves de facto since the early nineties.

However Georgians remember back from several hundred years ago when those areas were properly Georgian and have huge pride in wanting them back. So it's political suicide for Georgian politicians to allow those provinces to secede.

Russia was put very low and humiliated with the USSR broke up. However now they're much stronger and they have still not been treated very well and they are a huge energy, oil and gas exporter and have used that as a weapon. Something that's not exactly become less important now that energy costs are sky rocketing. Which is another complicating factor. The EU can't really afford to seriously upset Russia because a lot of their gas comes through Russia. In addition to the insanity that "Getting involved in a land war in Asia" is.

The US can't really talk too much against invading sovereign countries to help out oppressed people for obvious reasons. It was actually hilarious in a speech by Rice where she said that "Countries don't invade other countries, in Europe" heh..

Anyway to sum up, it's very complicated.

I'm more worried about the Ukraine really, they have a similar situation there where the eastern Ukraine that borders Russia was historically a part of Russia and the people there speak Russian and mostly consider themselves Russian. There is also a very militarily important port in that area that the Ukranian president is threatening to stop letting Russia use, something which is very important for Russia since they are quite landlocked really.

Anyway we'll just have to wait and see what happens really.
post #4 of 11
I don't get what has happened... is this right:

South Ossetia wants to be independent from Georgia
Russia supports this
Georgia wants South Ossetia back under its control, so Georgia "invaded" South Ossetia, and started bombing it
Putin condemned the actions of Georgia, so brought in its own troops to get the Georgians back out of South Ossetia.

Russia is condemned for getting involved?

(And as an aside, USA condemns Russia for sending troops into a country which conveniently has oil fields to aid them from being attacked. Sounds a little hypocritical!!)

Edit to add: Ok - just read Siggav's reply. I think that Russia needs to get out, Georgia needs to back off out of South Ossetia, and let them do their own thing, and US needs to keep their nose out of it - it's something that needs to be handled by the involved countries with help from the United Nations if needed.

This Wikipedia page is interesting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War
post #5 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
I think that Russia needs to get out, Georgia needs to back off out of South Ossetia, and let them do their own thing, and US needs to keep their nose out of it - it's something that needs to be handled by the involved countries with help from the United Nations if needed.
I agree. Unfortunately it's probably going to need a lot of pressure to get Georgia to back off out of South Ossetia. That's what kicked the whole thing off in the first place.

Russia even called an UN emergency session early last Friday to try and get Georgia renounce the use of force in the South Ossetian conflict. That resolution was vetoed by the UK and US.

Russia is not clean in this though and they are playing power games and have been for a while. They clearly anticipated the whole thing and were ready to step in and invade and they really need to get out of Georgia now.

Aricle on the possible Ukranian situation: http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/13/is...-ossetian-war/

I've also enjoyed reading this blog on the current conflict:
http://duckofminerva.blogspot.com/
post #6 of 11
Whatever Russia's plans are, I think they are in a better moral place than Georgia.

I don't understand why the US pulled all the Georgian troops out of Iraq to go back to Georgia - surely they should be pressuring Georgia to get out of South Ossetia - if they get out of South Ossetia, and Russia stays, THEN pressure can be applied to the Russians.
post #7 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
Whatever Russia's plans are, I think they are in a better moral place than Georgia.

I don't understand why the US pulled all the Georgian troops out of Iraq to go back to Georgia - surely they should be pressuring Georgia to get out of South Ossetia - if they get out of South Ossetia, and Russia stays, THEN pressure can be applied to the Russians.
From what I understand Georgia had an agreement with the US that their troops would be transported back to Georgia in case of an emergency.
post #8 of 11
Yeah pretty much.

However the Georgian politicans don't want to let go of South Ossetia and they have been playing to the US and the West a lot. Wanting to join NATO, sending troops to Iraq and basically being all "Look at us, look at how awesomely pro west and pro America we are! See we're even important from an energy standpoint" which of course pisses of Russia and I think Russia has been waiting for an excuse to slam them down.

Anyway all that means that the US isn't really neutral in the conflict. They have a vested interest in Georgia. John McCain for example has a very strong anti-Russia, pro-Georgia stance, Randy Scheunemann his main foreign policy advisor has received a lot of money from Georgia as well for being an advisor to them. source
post #9 of 11
There's also a segment of people in the Ukraine who want the Ukraine to join NATO. Russia will never let that happen, especially with Putin in power. From a military standpoint the US in no shape to tangle with the Russians (I don't think we would anyway). For that matter, neither is Western Europe (individually or collectively). The UN is what it has always been, nothing more than a paper tiger. Unless Putin has change of heart and calls off the dogs, so to speak, I don't see this ending unless Georgia capitulates or until they are pummeled into submission.
post #10 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
This Wikipedia page is interesting - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War
Good link!! It sheds more light on the complexity of the situation IMO, it seems like the alternative S.Os for Peace are the ones who represent the Ossetian population across the board, and therefore is more representative of democracy. So I've done 180 in my thinking on this - it seems like a way to think about it would be as if the gangs in Los Angeles did a take over and then staged a vote about whether Gangland should replace L.A. County and only gang members could vote; and an alternative group formed as the L.A. for Peace which held a vote that included all eligible voters who voted to remain L.A. County...
Bottom line - homes are being destroyed, children are scared, injured & worse, the women are grieving; God help them all, including the innocent pets
post #11 of 11
Am I right in thinking that the EU can't be anti-Georgia as a vital gas pipeline to Europe runs through it?
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