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How can the Pope

post #1 of 34
4/11/03 at 6:31pm
Thread Starter 
stand on his balcony and condone this war as immoral and not address all the priests who are proven child molester within his control?
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post #2 of 34
4/11/03 at 7:06pm
Hissy, its spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
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post #3 of 34
4/11/03 at 7:29pm
Pope John Paul II
Needs to look to one of his own Saints, Saint Augustine gave a guidelines for a "just war"
We meet all six.
Want to know more; I will post them.
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post #4 of 34
4/11/03 at 7:54pm
I would find that very interesting to read. Please do post them.
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post #5 of 34
4/11/03 at 8:34pm
St. Augustine's guildelines for a just war are still helpful.Let's look at the guildelines.
First,a legitimate aurhority must delcare the war.In other words,wars must not start because of a personal grudge or an accident.A soverign head of state must make the decision.
Secondly,the war must be carried out with the right intention.The purpose must be to protect or restore peace,not seize land or oil.
Thirdly, the war can only be approved only as a last resort.Other alternatives must be tried frist. Twelve years and 17 UN resolutions are long enough.
Fourthy,the war must be waged on the basis of the principles of porportionality. The good to be accomplished by the war must outweigh the suffering and killing that will be unleshed by the war.
Fifthly, the war must have a reasonable chance of success.
Sixthly the war must be waged with all the moderation possible.That is,the accepted rules of the Hague and Geneva Conventions must be followed. To the greastest extent possible,civilans and prisoners of war must be protected.
I think we have covered all of them.
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post #6 of 34
4/12/03 at 1:31am
Interesting! Do you think the Pope is trying to distract people's attention away from the sex scandals? Sherral, thanks for posting those guidelines.
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post #7 of 34
4/12/03 at 1:43am
Thread Starter 
That was my thought jcat. I don't think the Pope is per se, but I believe those who claim to guide him are urging him down this path distraction.
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post #8 of 34
4/12/03 at 10:45am
Kind of a Vatican "Wag the Dog".

Tucson just got a new bishop and he is cracking down VERY hard, on this stuff. The Diocese of Tucson has MUCH tougher policies, than the Vatican. They need to - they've paid out about $11,000,000, in settlements, that past two years.

Documents have turned up, going back through at least two bishops. Most of the molestations occurred at one parish and were known by the pastor. He covered it up and transferred the associate priests invloved. HE should be held liable, too. Unfortunately, he is STILL the pastor, there.
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post #9 of 34
4/12/03 at 12:36pm
They're probably afraid they won't be able to replace the pastor. There is a definite lack of priests - I believe that eventually the RC Church will be forced to either part with celibacy or ordain women.
It's funny - I just had a discussion with my mother-in-law this afternoon about the Pope. She was saying how wonderfully sharp he still was for his age, and I pointed out that he just read his statements, and there was no way of knowing whether he determined policy or someone else. My in-laws are very devout Catholics, and prefer not to discuss sex scandals in the RC Church. Just their luck to end up with an agnostic son and a Jesuit-educated daughter-in-law!
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post #10 of 34
4/12/03 at 4:10pm
I have a problem with the way most religions treat women. It is inconceivable, to me, that God would create 51% of human beings, to be second-class citizens.
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post #11 of 34
4/12/03 at 4:42pm
God created us as we are, now the way men perceive us to be! Some men pick and choose verses in the Bible that support their own beliefs. Unfortunately, most pastors are men. I have noticed, however, in the last ten years, that many pastors are going out of their way to correct the impression that women are not equal to men.
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post #12 of 34
4/12/03 at 4:44pm
I have a real problem with that, too. Apparently we're such dirty, sinful creatures that we have to be totally ignored or confined to cloisters! And it's not just the RC Church that thinks that way - shouldn't we all be forced to wear chadors?
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post #13 of 34
4/12/03 at 5:28pm
Most pastor's are working very hard to make sure they preach women are equal! Ted does!!!!![as some of you know he is a pastor]
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post #14 of 34
4/12/03 at 5:46pm
I'm very glad that he does. They're are very many who don't. My family has gone from being absolutely WASP in the mid-1800s to including every race and almost every religion in 2003. We don't have any Hindus at the moment, but I figure that within 5 - 10 years that will be rectified.
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post #15 of 34
4/12/03 at 5:49pm
"I have a real problem with that, too. Apparently we're such dirty, sinful creatures that we have to be totally ignored or confined to cloisters! "


I'm curious, jcat..are you actually Catholic or did you just go to a Jesuit college? I never got the sense growing up as a Catholic that women were considered dirty, sinful creatures. It is true that Catholics do not ordain women as priests, which is upsetting to some women but is not something particularly important to me. But that hardly translates to the attitude that you describe.
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post #16 of 34
4/12/03 at 5:59pm
I have never heard that women are dirty, sinful creatures. I've been a church musician all of my adult life-in several different denominations other than my own. Perhaps that's being taught in some churches, but it's my understanding that Paul (who had been Saul) taught that celibacy was a better state than matrimony, but not that it was sinful to be married. All churches with which I am familiar do teach that sex outside of marriage is not allowed for either man or woman. It's reserved in some churches for procreation, however. But that rule would effect both sexes.
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post #17 of 34
4/12/03 at 6:19pm
I went to public school until ninth grade. I completed grades 10- 12 in a Roman Catholic school that also had a large number of Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Jewish pupils. I then attended a Jesuit university that had a resident rabbi and quite a few Moslem and Hindu students. That is not unusual for Philadelphia. After that I was in Germany, and then did student teaching at the University of Pennsylvania, which had a large Jewish student body, but quite a number of foreign students of different religions. I grew up in a family that was very split between Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant. I have Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, and Native American relatives, and my family has members of all races. My sister has four children, all baptized in different religions. In other words, I don't believe there is any "true" religion, and find diversity the best answer. I have never been able to answer to my own satisfaction if God exists or if there is only one God. I also don't find it important.
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post #18 of 34
4/12/03 at 6:28pm
There are absolute truths, of course. We have to find the faith that we believe comes closest to the truth. Man is not omniscient, of course.
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post #19 of 34
4/12/03 at 7:19pm
Too many religions pick and choose, from their particular holy book(s).

The Koran teaches that women are to be respected and treated well. Modesty in dress is decreed for both men and women. It also teaches tolerance for other religions.

I was raised in a Pentecostal church. They prohibit drinking, smoking, dancing and mixed swimming. Makeup and jewelry are also no-nos. Until the early 60s, even wedding rings were not allowed. About 20 years ago, they finally allowed women to wear pants. As a child, I was not allowed to go to movies or carnivals. These were all taboo. They STILL don't allow women to preach.

I've noticed that most religious prohibitions seem to apply to women. WHAT are these men afraid of?
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post #20 of 34
4/12/03 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by katl8e
Too many religions pick and choose, from their particular holy book(s).

The Koran teaches that women are to be respected and treated well. Modesty in dress is decreed for both men and women. It also teaches tolerance for other religions.

I've noticed that most religious prohibitions seem to apply to women. WHAT are these men afraid of?
Right! It drives me crazy that men in many different religions use vague verses from their holy books to justify oppressing women. I've always heard that Islam is actually a good religion in it's attitude towards women, except that the fundamentalists took over. Mohammed's wife Kadija (And I'm sorry I mispelled that, and if any of this is wrong, feel free to correct me) was a sucessful trader who proposed TO HIM! And she's held up as an example for Muslim women to follow. So where does the burka and not being able to get medical care come in?

I don't know what they're afraid of, but the subject makes me feel very rebellious! I think it will bite them in the a$$ one day, and it's coming sooner for some than others!
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post #21 of 34
4/13/03 at 2:37am
From what I understand, there is nothing in the Koran telling women they have to cover their heads, wear burkas, etc.. Those rules were obviously made up by men other than Mohammed. The Taliban were extreme examples. As far as the RC Church is concerned, I have always been bothered by the status of women in the church. It has always appeared to me that nuns have to kowtow to priests. I went to a co-ed high school, but that was not the norm for parochial high schools in those days (seventies). The church has come a long way - there are altar girls now, and female deacons, but bestowing sacraments is still reserved to men. Maybe it's society as a whole that is to blame - little boys are taught to be competitive, and when they grow up, they have so many male competitors that they can't deal with female ones, too. Over here, people are still shocked that the U.S. has female soldiers who actually fly bombers, get involved in combat, are KIA or taken prisoner. Try explaining that our armed forces are equal opportunity employers, and that equal rights also mean equal duties. My students were shocked when a woman ended up KIA. "But she's a mother - how can a mother serve active duty?" When I pointed out that many of the men are fathers, they said, "That's different." Why?
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post #22 of 34
4/13/03 at 4:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by jcat
My students were shocked when a woman ended up KIA. "But she's a mother - how can a mother serve active duty?" When I pointed out that many of the men are fathers, they said, "That's different." Why?
Because since the beginning of time, a woman's role was looked upon as the nurturer of the family. I suppose all that is changing.
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post #23 of 34
4/14/03 at 11:37am
Did you know (I'm pretty sure this is correct, anyway) that they are talking about a bill that will allow women to be drafted? That's definitely different, isn't it?

Anyway, I personally think they should allow women to be priests. I'm not Catholic, I'm Lutheran, and in my church, women can be pastors.
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post #24 of 34
4/14/03 at 1:03pm
That would be interesting if women could be drafted. Personally, I don't see why not. The only problem with women in combat would be how they are treated as POWs. It will be intersting to hear the stories of the two POWs from this conflict, I think this would have to be the worst case scenario of what they would go through.

Viva, you must be ELCA. I know that Missouri and Wisconsin Synods do not allow women to be pastors. Missouri at least allows them to read from the Bible during the service, but I do remember when that wasn't the case (they would have a man read the Gospel reading because women we're to read the words of Jesus ), although I'm pretty sure women still can't even read the Bible passages in church in the Wisconsin Synod. (I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, even went to a Lutheran college and taught at a Lutheran school for a while.)
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post #25 of 34
4/14/03 at 1:32pm
Antoinette Brown, an early feminist, had a call to the ministry. Needles to say, no 19th century church would ordain her. Her comment was, "Why is it acceptable for Jenny Lind to SING "My Redeemer Liveth" but not for me to SAY it?"
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post #26 of 34
4/15/03 at 6:31am
*Actually* when the Pope was in Toronto he did in fact bring up this issue and his feelings on it. In any case, this war is immoral he's got that right. And why should he bring up child molestors every time he shows up in public? He needs to practice what he preaches, and his religion is one based on forgiving. I'm sure he's been over the topic many times before and would like to talk about some other things now. I'm not biased, as I'm not religious. I'm just telling you the facts as I know them.
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post #27 of 34
4/15/03 at 7:41am
The two matters are totally unrelated. The church covered up child molestation for many years. That's a disgrace! However, those days are over. The RC church has admitted its failure. I agree that we should not expect the Pope to address the matter every time he addresses other issues. I am a Lutheran, by the way, and have no axe to grind.

I consider war the failure of people to learn to love one another. However, until all of humankind learns that, makes perfect decisions, and treats one another with respect, war is inevitable. (This is not an original idea, of course. It's a result of my religious training.) Our motives may be honorable, but I agree that war is the direct result of sin. It should be the last choice to remedy injustice. On occasion, righteous indignation demands action, but that was not the motive we presented to the U.N. I pray that the results justify the suffering and loss of life the coalition forces and the Iraqi people have undergone.
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post #28 of 34
4/15/03 at 7:56am
Actually, when they had the meeting on the seemingly rampant child molestation cases at the Vatican, he absolutely refused to put in place a zero tolerance policy. I have a real problem with that, personally. The religion may be based on forgiveness, but I find it unforgivable that this organization aided and abetted known sexual predators, practically giving them victims for the taking, for 20+ years in some cases. This policy is morally and legally wrong, period.

Does he need to bring it up every time he speaks? No, certainly not. We all know his stance on it - priests are to be protected no matter what they do.

I also don't think this war is immoral, Pope or no. Hussein's regime has systematically raped, tortured and murdered as a matter of policy over the past 25 years. Yes, there were regrettable casualties on both sides, but I guarantee that Saddam Hussein killed more people during his reign than we did in the 3 weeks of fighting. I know it's not a numbers game, human life cannot be measured simply in numbers, but neither is living in fear - both for the Iraqi people and our own country.

BTW, Welcome Lynx!
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post #29 of 34
4/15/03 at 9:23am
I checked my research. I found this quotation as presented by BBC news on the 25th. of April, 2002:

The meeting follows the Pope's strongest ever condemnation of child abuse in a statement on Tuesday.


Cardinal Law is under pressure to resign

"People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young," the pontiff said.
__________________________
However, other sources insist that there is not zero tolerance of sexual abuse. If that is true, the R.C. Church is not following the instructions of the head of their church-or the statement was not quoted correctly by the BBC. Every expert that I have heard speak says child molesters cannot be trusted around children-ever, regardless of treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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post #30 of 34
4/15/03 at 9:33am
I think that the church, in general, is just paying lip service. When the US Conference of Bishops drafted a tough policy, the Vatican rejected it.

The Dioscese of Tucson seems to be doing a good job, though. They have set up a panel, comprised of both clergy and lay people, to investigate EVERY accusation. Clarence Dupnik, Pima County Sheriff, is on the panel. Every accusation, with credible evidence, is being referred to law enforcement and, pending the outcome of the investigation, the accused priest is suspended.

Pima County has an extremely hard-nosed, aggressive sex crimes prosecutor. The dioscese encompasses the entire southern part of the state, though and I'm not sure about the other counties' prosecutors.
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