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post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Yes, I did. I stopped when I saw CAIR. CAIR is a terrorist organization as far as I am concerned. Mouthing words means nothing anyway.
How many Muslims have turned in other Muslims for terrorism. Now, THAT I would respect.
That is an interesting method of debate. When presented with facts that counter your point, simply raise the bar. Interesting indeed. Originally, the issue was the Muslims were not "speaking out" agains Muslim extremists. But now that evidence is presented that Islam is speaking out, and loudly, speaking out means nothing anyway. Now the bar has been raised to physically taking action against extremists. But not to worry; they're doing that too...Muslims fighting and turning in Muslim terrorists.

Actually, I was unaware that CAIR was a terrorist organization. I didn't know that they'd claimed responsibility for any acts of terror, but then, I've been known to miss a news story every now and again. Could you supply a link?
post #32 of 52
That is in Pakistan. Commendable though. Isn't that the country Obama wants to invade?
http://a.abcnews.com/Politics/story?id=3434573&page=1



http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2811

Another link about CAIR, I guess you must have missed the first one I posted.
CAIR fits my criteria for being a terrorist organization.



http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1775

Link about the Moderate Muslims in America
post #33 of 52
Quote:
I haven't seen the peaceful majority do much of anything
I think you forgot about this sentence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
That is an interesting method of debate. When presented with facts that counter your point, simply raise the bar. Interesting indeed. Originally, the issue was the Muslims were not "speaking out" agains Muslim extremists. But now that evidence is presented that Islam is speaking out, and loudly, speaking out means nothing anyway. Now the bar has been raised to physically taking action against extremists. But not to worry; they're doing that too...Muslims fighting and turning in Muslim terrorists.

Actually, I was unaware that CAIR was a terrorist organization. I didn't know that they'd claimed responsibility for any acts of terror, but then, I've been known to miss a news story every now and again. Could you supply a link?
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
That is in Pakistan. Commendable though.
So now Muslims in Pakistan don't count?

Quote:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2811

Another link about CAIR, I guess you must have missed the first one I posted.
CAIR fits my criteria for being a terrorist organization.



http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1775

Link about the Moderate Muslims in America
I've never heard of Daniel Pipes. He sounds a tad radical himself. Does he have any kind of credibility, or is he just another blogger?
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think you forgot about this sentence.
Well then, by your own definition, the peaceful majority of Christians aren't doing anything to stop abortion clinic bombers, Westboro Baptists picketing funerals, or the KKK burning crosses, because they've not done anything physical to stop them. And, as you said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Mouthing words means nothing anyway.
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Well then, by your own definition, the peaceful majority of Christians aren't doing anything to stop abortion clinic bombers, Westboro Baptists picketing funerals, or the KKK burning crosses, because they've not done anything physical to stop them. And, as you said;

Quite the stretch there Skippy. LOL. I haven't seen any abortion clinics being bombed in how long? I wouldn't think twice about turning a violent criminal in to the authorities.

And since when is picketing and burning crosses (however disgusting I may find it) against the law? Do you want to change the law?
And picketing and burning crosses is a far, far cry from beheadings, and flying planes into buildings and murdering thousands of innocent civilians.
But I'm sure some people think it is comparable.
post #37 of 52
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Oh yeah, he is a real radical.

Why does he sound "radical"? Becuase he found a conntection between CAIR and Hamas?

Oh yes, those abortion clinic bombers are running rampants aren't they?

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic...Bombings.Islam

I don't think so. But I guess some people think so.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Oh yeah, he is a real radical.

Why does he sound "radical"? Becuase he found a conntection between CAIR and Hamas?
I'm not so sure that Wikipedia link is a recommendation of Pipes, Cindy.
Quote:
Views on Islam

Pipes is a harsh critic of what he views as Islamic radicalism, for which he has attracted both opprobrium as a bigot and praise as a prophetic figure.

Pipes' ally Jeff Jacoby writes: "To hear his critics tell it, Pipes is an 'Islamophobe' and an anti-Muslim bigot whose ignorance about Islam is matched only by his hostility toward it." But in Jacoby's view, "these are gross and vicious libels."[14]

Tashbih Sayyed, editor of the Muslim World Today and the Pakistan Times, calls Pipes "a Cassandra. He must be listened to. If there is no Daniel Pipes, there is no source for America to learn to recognize the evil which threatens it... Muslims in America that are like Samson; they have come into the temple to pull down the pillars, even if it means destroying themselves."[5]. Sheikh Dr. Ahmed Subhy Mansour, a former visiting fellow at Harvard Law School, writes, "We Muslims need a thinker like Dr. Pipes, who can criticize the terrorist culture within Islam."[5]

However, in The Nation, Kristine McNeil describes Pipes as an "anti-Arab propagandist" who has built a career out of "distortions...twist[ing] words, quot[ing] people out of context and stretch[ing] the truth to suit his purpose."[13] James Zogby argues that Pipes possesses an "obsessive hatred of all things Muslim", and that "Pipes is to Muslims what David Duke is to African-Americans."[14] Christopher Hitchens, a fellow supporter of the Iraq War and critic of political Islam, has also criticized Pipes, arguing that Pipes pursues an intolerant agenda, "confuses scholarship with propaganda", and "pursues petty vendettas with scant regard for objectivity", making him a "poor if not useless ally".[15]

Pipes' views gained widespread public attention when they triggered a filibuster in the United States Senate against his nomination by President George W. Bush to the board of the United States Institute of Peace.[8] Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) explained that he was offended by Pipes' comments on Islam, and that while "some people call [Pipes] a scholar... this is not the kind of person you want on the USIP."[16] While defending Pipes' nomination, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer distanced Bush from Pipes' views, saying that Bush disagrees with Pipes about whether Islam is a peaceful religion.[17]

In addition, Pipes has sparked local controversies as an invited speaker at college campuses. When Pipes was invited to speak at the University of Toronto in March 2005, a letter from professors, staff and students asserted that Pipes had a "long record of xenophobic, racist and sexist [speeches] that goes back to 1990."[18] University officials said they would not interfere with Pipes' visit.[19]
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Why does he sound "radical"? Becuase he found a conntection between CAIR and Hamas?
My apologies. "Radical" was simply my nicest as possible way I could think to say that "I'm at work, and our corporate intranet blocks his blog as "promoting intolerance and hatred"."
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Quite the stretch there Skippy. LOL. I haven't seen any abortion clinics being bombed in how long? I wouldn't think twice about turning a violent criminal in to the authorities.

And since when is picketing and burning crosses (however disgusting I may find it) against the law? Do you want to change the law?
And picketing and burning crosses is a far, far cry from beheadings, and flying planes into buildings and murdering thousands of innocent civilians.
But I'm sure some people think it is comparable.
Picketing is sometimes against the law. The way the Westboro Baptists do it is definitely wrong. Burning crosses is a form of hate speech and is also against the law.

You keep repeating that the crimes of the abortion clinic bombers and KKK, etc. don't measure up (down?) to 9/ll, but that is not a defense of them. It is still hateful and dangerous to the society harmed by it.

Actually you sound like an apologist for the Christian terrorists. That may not be your intent, but that is how it is coming across.

That's not to say Muslim extremism doesn't frighten me. It does. What frightens me most, though, is the Christian vs. Islam tone of some of the arguments on this thread.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Oh yeah, he is a real radical.

Why does he sound "radical"? Becuase he found a conntection between CAIR and Hamas?

Oh yes, those abortion clinic bombers are running rampants aren't they?

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic...Bombings.Islam

I don't think so. But I guess some people think so.
So, just to clarify; are you wanting to qualify and quantify terrorism? Break it down by how effective a tactic is, how long it's been since last action, etc. Does terrorism have to result in death to be terrorism by your definition? Does terroristic threatening (illegal) not qualifiy? Does the hate motivated murder of 1 or 2 people not count? What is the magic number by definition, 7-9, 10 or more, 25 or more?
post #42 of 52
One of my best friends is a muslim. She doesn't attend anti-radical islamic marches, nor do her family. They don't blog/write articles about how muslims need to denounce the terrorists within their religion. In fact I'm not entirely sure they have changed how they live at all as a result of 9/11 or 7/7.
She does however use public transport and enter high-rise buildings just like the rest of us. She lives, works and studies in london as I and 8 million others do.
I don't need her to take an official stance on this issue to know where she stands.
I think it would be quite a shock to her to be told that just because she believes in Allah she has to publicly denounce whatever atrocities are committed in His name by people who are worlds away from her.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
So, just to clarify; are you wanting to qualify and quantify terrorism? Break it down by how effective a tactic is, how long it's been since last action, etc. Does terrorism have to result in death to be terrorism by your definition? Does terroristic threatening (illegal) not qualifiy? Does the hate motivated murder of 1 or 2 people not count? What is the magic number by definition, 7-9, 10 or more, 25 or more?
Of course the abortion clinic bombings were horrendous, but it is not on topic, but whatever.

What I am saying is, IMO, it is blowing smoke and a diversionary tactic to compare the few abortion clinic bombings to world wide Muslim extremist terrorism. That is always your answer, "hey, but what about those abortion bombings"? when talking about Muslim terrorism. Its ridiculous.

CAIR is connected to terrorists. Perhaps this source is more to your liking.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/about.php

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/172

This organization has an impeccable reputation and the best credentials.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/sto...f1e39afbbc&p=1


Katie, are you really comparing picketing to the murder of thousands?
Because if you are, then I don't know what to tell you.

Skippy, I know some people's work internet does strange things. I had a member tell me they cannot log on this site as it is classified by their work computer as a "hate" site. Crazy.

Maybe your work computer will like the Investigative Project better.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Of course the abortion clinic bombings were horrendous, but it is not on topic, but whatever.

What I am saying is, IMO, it is blowing smoke and a diversionary tactic to compare the few abortion clinic bombings to world wide Muslim extremist terrorism. That is always your answer, "hey, but what about those abortion bombings"? when talking about Muslim terrorism. Its ridiculous.
It actually is quite on topic, but you keep denying the point. Almost any religion can be credited with extremists. Almost any extremists can be credited with violence. I'll stop using the term "abortion clinic bombings" as Christian bombers don't seem to be very good at it. The last few (from 2005 to 2007) either missed their targets, did minor damage, were detonated by a bomb squad, or were found out before they could be effective, and you seem to give that some significance. Instead, I'll just call it murderous anti-abortion violence.

The fact that you do not want those people who engage in murderous anti-abortion violence to be Christians does not change the fact that they are. There are a lot of things about this world today that people don't want to be true, that are. We just have to live with that. But their goal is not religious, their goal is political, the bible is simply their tool for recruiting and to justify their actions to themselves.

The same is true with Hamas. Hamas goal is political. They want an independent state and they want the destruction of Israel, whom they consider enemy/oppressor/bad guy or whatever. Islam is just a tool to them, a tool to recruit and justify their actions to their followers, and they warp it and pervert it and use it to fulfill their needs; but their cause and their methods are NOT Islamic, no more than the KKK's cause and methods are Christian. The term Arab terrorist is far, far more accurate than Muslim terrorist.

Quote:
CAIR is connected to terrorists. Perhaps this source is more to your liking.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/about.php

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/172

This organization has an impeccable reputation and the best credentials.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/sto...f1e39afbbc&p=1
While at work I was being distracted a great deal, and don't even know why we went off on this tangent. The real question is, why do you feel all the reputable news sources on that listing are discredited simply because their link shares a page with this one?
post #45 of 52
And why do you feel CAIR is not connected to terrorism?
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
And why do you feel CAIR is not connected to terrorism?
I said that; where exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Actually, I was unaware that CAIR was a terrorist organization. I didn't know that they'd claimed responsibility for any acts of terror, but then, I've been known to miss a news story every now and again. Could you supply a link?
And the links you supplied were blocked by the corporate intranet, according to the system message, because the blog is "promoting intolerance and hatred". Once I got home, I did read his blog. He's done a great deal of research, or perhaps, made up some really incredible stories. Either way, I think I'll look more into his figures, they're quiet interesting. But, the most interesting is all the full blow psychopaths that post replies to his blog

So, how does sharing a link page with CAIR take all credibility away from otherwise reputable news sources?
post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I'm sure your work computer won't say the same for the above links.

And when the top of the list of the so-called "Muslim Leaders" is CAIR, the rest just loses credibility. Maybe it's just me.
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I'm sure your work computer won't say the same for the above links.

And when the top of the list of the so-called "Muslim Leaders" is CAIR, the rest just loses credibility. Maybe it's just me.
Thank you for the links, I can see why you would think the way you do.

But, impeccable is a very powerful word of very high standards, and I think it may not be appropriate here. A quick search turned up a snafu in their past of international significance. But hey, it happens to the best of them
post #49 of 52
Can you supply a link to that alleged "snafu"? I would be very interested to read it.

As far as the Muslim extremist terrorists not being Islamic, I have to disagree with that. When you pray 5 times a day facing Mecca and want to die a martyr to obtain the 72 virgins and one of your primes objectives is the worldwide forced conversion to Islam, to me that makes them Islamic terrorists.


http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic...Bombings.Islam

Interesting article about pro-choice people murdering pro-life people.
post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Can you supply a link to that alleged "snafu"? I would be very interested to read it.
Why certainly. There are still a few actual news sites that carry the story, even though it's over 2 years old;

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1655657.shtml

Quote:
As far as the Muslim extremist terrorists not being Islamic, I have to disagree with that.
Of course they're Islamic. Their goals and their methods are not Islamic.

Quote:
When you pray 5 times a day facing Mecca and want to die a martyr to obtain the 72 virgins and one of your primes objectives is the worldwide forced conversion to Islam, to me that makes them Islamic terrorists.
Which is exactly what they are told by the very people that I mentioned are warping and perverting Islam. Do you honestly feel that the way a person prays is what makes them a terrorist? As for that "forced conversion" thing. How is it that one of the Iranian MP's that thoroughly denounced the National Post for their "religion badges" story, is Jewish? Iran is an Islamic Theocratic government. If what you are saying is true, then he should have been converted long, long ago. At least before becoming a politician in their government, don't you think? And what about the thousands of people he represents? Or Iran's Zoroastrian, Christian, and Baha'i populations?

Quote:
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic...Bombings.Islam

Interesting article about pro-choice people murdering pro-life people.
What is the point being made by the writer of this opinion piece? That Christian pro-life terrorists are dismissed by the fact that they are sometimes attacked by pro-choice terrorists? That you can forgive the Christian terrorists and simply write off the lives of the few people murdered because they are few, and because he supports their cause if not their methods?

I also find it interesting that he insinuates that murderous anti-abortion violence is a thing of the past by cutting off his statistics 5 years ago, before the new rash of anti-abortion violence. Once attack involving driving a firebomb car into a clinic happened 3 months prior to his writing his opinion piece, yet he left that out. Wonder why?
post #51 of 52
I was talking about the Investigative Project not the National Post. The Investigate Project has impeccable credentials.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/about.php


I don't believe the government of Iran is interested in anything but destroying Israel and ridding the world of all Jewish people. The president of Iran has said it over and over again. Iran is a terrorist nation IMO.
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Iran is a terrorist nation IMO.
I can't agree with this, there are far too many people in Iran that disagree with the governments stance. Their student protests attest to that. But I will be honest, their President and his "elite forces" actually scare me. They are dangerous people that sadly, I believe the world will eventually have to deal with.
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