First gay marriages in California - Page 4

Some posts bring up some interesting points. Why DO we have so many young people's futures being decided by crotchety, hateful older people. Perhaps we (those of us that are old and crotchety) should all step aside and let the new generation decide what they want their world to be.

I like to think that I'm still a work in progress and able to make changes for the better. I also like to think that my diversity of experience gives me something extra to add to young 'uns willing to listen.

I am still confused about the whole marriage vs civil union and why that is important. I think this is what the argument is:

Those who are adamant against the term marriage for homosexuals hold the belief that marriage (term and act) was originated as a sacred religious ceremony between a Man and a Woman and that is its only intention. Some of the people who believe this can allow homosexuals the same legal rights as all others (note this does not mean condoning homosexuality or the behaviors associated with it) if it is within a civil union or draw up separate legal papers to given them the rights. However legalizing marriage would be infringing upon their religious beliefs and akin to forcing them to accepting the homosexual lifestyle

The problem with the above reasoning is that marriage has been a legal term for a very long time ( no matter what may or may not have been the "original" intentions according to any religion). The fact that so many laws are hinged upon the term marriage without a religious affiliation makes the term marriage the logical choice for a legal decision to give equality to homosexuals and heterosexuals.

The "legal documents" option has been shot down repeatedly in court cases as "next of kin law" which is defined as a spouse (either sex) for married people trumps a personal legal document for homosexual couples. There have been many cases where vengeful, hateful parents have overturned the wishes of their deceased homosexual children to allow their long term partners to inherit their belonging and to make their funeral arrangements. If these homosexuals were married their partners would be their spouse, thus their legal next of kin, and all is settled.

Additionally some religions do allow for homosexual marriages and do not define homosexuality as being against God. So it is not all religions that are against this.

Looking at these points it seems if there are some religions that feel having the unions their churches perform must be something separate and above what homosexuals are allowed then why don't they institute a Religious Union which is sanctioned by their particular God?

Homosexuals would be allowed the equality in everyday society that is the right of everyone and religions would be allowed to choose to keep what they believe is a Divine given stance against homosexuality.


On the other aspect of infringing on religious rights and sinning.


It is interesting how many people who are strong in their faith feel that allowing same sex marriages somehow is requiring them to condone something that is against their beliefs. I have mulled this over all day and cannot make this connection.


Asking same sex couples to refrain from having sexual relations is asking them to follow a religion they may not believe in. Now if they are of that particular religion then yes they should refrain from sinning under their own beliefs. However if they are not of that faith, how do their sexual relations make someone else a sinner? Allowing homosexual couples their rights as human beings does not strip the beliefs from the religious. It doesn't say that those who religious beliefs declare homosexuality a sin must now accept them into the fold. So I am still having a hard time understanding how this is infringing on religious rights. I can see how it would not be liked, but not the infringement.


I am really heartened to read so many people echoing my sentiments about allowing homosexuals to be who they inherently are as a beings. CC12 and Zissou's Mom your posts about children growing up in environments where their parents hate who they are brought tears to my eyes. How horrible to be a child knowing that the people who are supposed to love and support you unconditionally find you repulsive and deserving of hatred. How much more defeated does one get?


Sarahp, how lucky for your young cousin that his father is learning to come to an understanding about the reality of homosexuality. There is hope here

i'm a bit confused... when you refer to the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally finding you repulsive & deserving of hatred - are you speaking of the parents of those who choose this lifestyle or the religious who consider said lifestyle sinful?
speaking personally - one of my male relatives [now deceased ] was most likely gay. i say most likely because he never openly 'came out' to the extended family... but i always had my suspicions. i respected his privacy & never asked. didn't keep me from loving him & mourning his death.
i kinda think he knew [as i did] that the majority of the family would be unaccepting of his choice.
while i consider such a choice sin, there are many, many people who sin every day in other ways. i think the main difference is that our society here in the U.S. tends to consider those sins [murder, rape, adultery, etc.] also unacceptable, while this one [like extra-marital sex, which i also consider sin] is socially acceptable, for the most part. by which, i mean, should one choose to voice a dissent, one is accused of being intolerant, bigoted, & the like.

I totally agree with that statement Linda, and i use it often myself.

I've been good and kept my nose out of this so far. But....

For those of you who have said you have family members who were gay at young ages... how can that be? Is not the definition of homosexual "Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex" ? If so, how can you possible conclude that someone aged 3 or age 10 is "going to be gay" ?

I read a definition about "gay" and "lesbian" that explains what Coaster has been saying all along. Many people now avoid using homosexual because of the emphasis this term places on sexuality. Indeed, the words gay and lesbian, which stress cultural and social matters over sex, are frequently better choices. Homosexual is most objectionable when used as a noun; here gay man and gay woman or lesbian and their plural forms are called for. It is generally unobjectionable when used adjectivally, as in a homosexual relationship, although gay, lesbian, or same-sex are also available for adjectival use.

Dress it up, make it sound nice, so the rest of us will tolerate it better, right???

OK, I'm done.

I don't think anyone wants to impose any particular set of beliefs upon anyone else. I would just hope they come to that point of their own volition. But how can anyone make an informed choice if they don't hear the other side?

Someone who has his blinders off. He gets it.

My parents spotted it with my childhood friend Kevin from when he was about 12 years old. Then when he finally came out the closet in our early 20's the first thing my parents said to me was "Could you not tell when you were young how he never played football or any sport with the boys, and he always prefered to play with you girls?.

To me it never crossed my mind because i was just a kid, but now that i think back i can see what they saw.

Why NOT tolerate it?

I knew when I was six. Well, probably before I was six, but I "came out" for the first time at six I told my mother I was going to marry Darlene from Roseann. (Turns out the actress that played her is a lesbian; go figure. Guess my gaydar was pretty good, even back then! )

I came out again about a million times afterward, but my feelings of attraction/admiration/romance/whatever towards women were present for as long as I can remember. Those feelings are not absent in children. Little kids chase each other on the playground and try to kiss each other. Little kids play doctor. Children have an awareness of these sorts of feelings and emotions - obviously not as sophistocated as our adult understanding of them, but on some level, they're there.

If you speak to people in the LGBTQ community (and for those of you who think our rights aren't important, that might be something you should try), most of us will tell you that we knew at three, or six, or ten, or twelve. If you speak to some of our families, they'll tell you that they knew, too, or at least suspected, when we were three, six, ten, twelve.

It's who we are. It's how we are made. It's as natural as our hair color, our eye color, our skin tone. It's present from childhood - at least, it was for me, and it was for pretty much everyone else I know in my community. It might've been discouraged or repressed or made "dirty" by those around us, and so we learned to play along - but it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

I agree. I'm sure theres something in all of us that someone doesn't like, because lets face it none of us are perfect!.

My sister for one doesn't like the idea of Kevin being gay, but she's accepted that's what he is, but she would never turn her back on him because of it.

I really wish having gay people in the community is all we had to worry about on this planet, i really do

These are the two Google ads at the top of the page:

Personally, I'm offended and disgusted I should be served up such ads. So, this change in society doesn't affect me? I don't have to pay any attention to it if I don't agree with it? B.S.

There are offensive ads everywhere. Personally, I don't like the "got milk" one's. And I really hated "Beef...it's whats fer dinner!". You just have to overlook stuff like that, and don't reply to the ads.

No one is forcing you to get married. You have a choice.

I could draw up a list of things that i don't like seeing in ad's or on t.v., but the easiest way is to flick over the page or switch off.

Well we thought it when he was three and he is 21 now. He is gay. So obviously there were things about him that led us to believe this and we were right. We also noticed he was unusually intelligent in science and math and he is now a student at MIT.
He identified strongly with things little girls the same age liked. We would go on vacation and he would want to play dolls with the girls unless his parents were around of course. I am woman from a large family sandwiched between 2 men. There were things they did at similar ages that he did not. His mother was a caterer and he loved going to weddings to see the bride's dresses. But like I said he is on the spectrum of very feminine.

Sexuality is not only about the sexual act. It has to do with orientation and identity as well. I don't think about the sex act when I think about gay and lesbian people. I don't think about it when I think of straight people. What consenting adults do in their bedrooms is between them and it is none of my business. My gay friends are my friends because of the human beings they are and the fact that are gay is irrelevant in my opinions of them. I choose my friends because I like their personalities and for how good they are to me as friends. Gay, straight, black, white, asian, latino or whatever.
Intolerance is tolerated in our democracy. People are free to be closed minded about any issue they want. It just isn't my style or the way I think. I am not dressing up anything because in truth my statements here were to share my opinion but not change others. I wanted to express my pleasure that people in love are being allowed equal rights. If it did move someone toward tolerance then I feel glad that it did but it was not my intent.
I will be honest and say it does sadden me that there are people in opposition of this. I could not imagine the frustration of just wanting to legally commit to someone and being told no. Hopefully this changes all over America.

It may not be available to you - but you might want to check - a friend at my work put her BF on her insurance as a domestic partner. They had to declare that although they are not legally married, they are in a permanent relationship. I think more insurance companies will be offering that in the future to both straight and gay couples.

Of course, the better solution is to make health insurance more available/affordable so that people will not have to depend on employers for it... but that's another thread.

Sorry for the hi-jack.

[emphasis mine]

Another excellent post, thank you.

Ah, Sarah, I was hoping someone would mention that. Thank you!! That makes my point about not being unaffected. Unless Premier status is free now? And as far as the other options presented, it's not like TV; flipping the page or turning it off would preclude me from participating. It's like the ads scrolling across the bottom of your screen during your favorite show. Either you see the ads or you miss the show.

And they say Canadians are conservative!

BTW, we are gearing up in Toronto for our Gay Pride Parade - we would welcome any visitors that would like to see how a conservative country deals with homosexual issues.

For the life of me I cannot understand what the big fuss is about. Homosexuals are human beings, with human feelings, work and pay taxes, shop, cook, eat, sleep, entertain, all the things that pretty much everyone does - the ONLY difference is they are not attracted to the "opposite" sex. How in the name of heavens does that impact anyone else's personal life if they are not hitting on that person or asking that person to go to bed with them? Surely there are more serious crimes and matters out there for folks to be concerned and worried about! I personally am more concerned about rapists and child molesters - now I can see that as a REAL problem. What some other male or female does in the privacy of their own homes is their business. What would some of the heterosexual people do if someone told them they weren't allowed to have relations in a certain position or as in the olden days during ones menstrual time. This is the 21st century folks.

The Bible was written many, many, many years ago so a lot of what it contained could not possibly be applicable today as it pertained to that time in history and just doesn't translate to the modern-day world.

But the way Google works is, it uses keywords in the thread and your posts to determine your interests. As you have made it quite clear that you have an interest in homosexual matters, Google is showing you the ads. If you don't display an interest, you won't see them.

And it has nothing to do with you searching it, it bring up ads based on the content it finds on the page. So any page you click on that has google ads will generate ads on the subject matter, whether you like it or not.

THAT is one aspect of the "in your face" personal stuff people are talking about.

And Tim, thanks for actually reading what I posted earlier a few pages back, about definitions. I'm not sure anyone else here (probably Cindy tho) sees the same thing we do when they read those definitions.

Uh oh, there's that "hateful" word again.

Why is it, one cannot be against something without being "hateful"?

One can. But in the case of same-sex marriage, there is no other valid reason to be so opposed to it.

And it does that on any subject. I mainly see ads on Cat behavior and pet-friendly cleaning products.

This looks like SUCH a fun thread, I have to throw my $0.20 in! (Yes, I meant twenty, not two. I know I talk WAY too much!)

Most important: Marriages are a GREAT thing. Anyone willing to ball and chain themselves to another and promise to LOVE AND CHERISH each other forever is awesome. If only more people could stay commited, I'd be happy. So, CONGRATULATIONS to ALL who can get "married", or whatever you want to term it when you and the love of your life, your family, your community, and your government acknowledge your love for and dedication to each other.

Also, I'm Chirstian, but if the one true God says it's a sin to love another person, then I think I'd rather to go to h*ll. Like a story most of you here probably know:

"An old man and his dog died and went to the next life. They arrived at the pearly gates, with an angel at the door. Beyond the gates the man could see streets paved in gold and towers of diamond buildings, everyone was beautiful. The angel said "welcome sir. Please come in and enjoy!" The man and his dog walked towards the gates, and the angel said he couldn't bring his dog in. So, the man decided, if my dog can't come, I'm not going. So he kept walking.

In a bit he came to a beautiful garden overflowing with springs and fruit and flowers. People were relaxed and happy. He sat next to a man under a tree, and the man gave him and his dog some water. The old man told the other man how he passed up heaven for his dog. The other man said "Oh, the pearly gates? No, that's h*ll, the devil tries to trick people to abandon those they love. This is heaven, we would never ask you to abandon a loved one."

Sorry, kind of random, but I feel the same way about homosexuals. Why should they abandon someone they love to get to heaven? That just can't be right. The bible says many things, but five instances of homosexuality and one or two lines about how in certains ways it's bad does not make it a sin. Look at the 10 commandments. No where does it say "Thou shalt not love another of the same sex."

And finally, just a story. I have an acquantance I work with at the theater who is gay. In his mind he and his partner are married, which is really all that matters (screw the gov't!). So I asked him if they were thinking of children, which totally floored him. He said "You know we're gay, right? Two men?". He must've thought I didn't know (he is one it's plenty obvious). My response was "Yeah, but that doesn't stop you from having kids, you just can't conceive the old fashioned way." He actually paused for a second and thought about it, then said he did want kids and was going to have to bring it up to his partner. Just goes to show that society has such heavy stereotypes that even this man just EXPECTED me to not ask about kids because he was gay. So when I was being totally open, he was caught off guard. It's sad when openness and acceptance is what gets the shock.

So says you but that isn't my opinion.

Opinion is the entire purpose of this section

There are many excuses to hate, and I'm sure that the people that embrace those excuses are convinced of their validity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp
One can. But in the case of same-sex marriage, there is no other valid reason to be so opposed to it.


Personally, I am opposed to people deciding to have sex before marriage, have children out of wedlock, smoke, breed dogs and cats, do drugs, drink, get tattoos, get multiple piercings, wear way too baggy pants, like rap music, be vegetarian / vegan, drive SUVs, divorce, and yes, have homosexual relationships. Have I offended every single person on here yet?

But, I DO NOT HATE THEM, NOR THEIR DECISIONS. I just don't like one action. Like my previous post, if you are homosexual, GREAT. Marry the one you love, have a wonderful, happy family and life. We can be best friends. Doesn't mean I want to think of what you do in bed. I'm not against what you do, it just kind of tickles me the wrong way. For that matter, I don't want to think of what MY HUSBAND AND I do in bed. But look at that list of things that do that to me! If disliking an action made me hate people, I'd hate everyone!!

But in reality, I love probably more people than I should. I'm very open minded and accept a lot of things I probably shouldn't. I have cousins in gangs and friends heavily in to drugs. I still accept and love them for who they are. Maybe not trust them, but that's a different IMO! But certain things on my icky list are totally innocent and up to the individual and GREAT. Homosexual relationships is one of them.