What IS a backyard breeder?

abymummy

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A nasty and difficult topic but it should be discussed:

My definition:

1. A person who does not CARE for the cats in their care
2. A person who breeds uncontrollably or allows their queens to breed once every 4 months (ie. more than 2 litters a year, no respite)
3. A person who minimises cost to maximise profit (more litters at cheaper kittens, nominal vet care, non premium food, that sort of thing)
4. A person who doesn't breed for the betterment of the breed. Content to produce pet quality kittens only.
5. A person who breeds apparently "popular" cats. Has no knowledge of breed standards and what is wrong or right with what is being produced.

As for showing, a BYB would consider it completely unnecessary. There will always be a market for what they produce....

What is your definition?
 

goldenkitty45

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Basically what you've said; however, not all BYB are ones that neglect the cats/dogs. They just breed to make money with minimum care (shots, etc.)

They don't have pedigrees on the animals (if they do, they are probably falsified or from pet shops). They don't guarentee the health of the animal nor do they take back any offspring if the new owners cannot keep the animal. They don't have any contract either. One of the clear signs of a BYB are the "associations" they register the animals in - like ACA, CKC (not the legit Candian Kennel Club but Continental Kennel Club), and several other puppy mill/byb associations. If the puppies are not from CKC or AKC or one of the foreign registries, then beware. One of the biggest Pet registries is APRI (American Pet Registry, Inc.) - they will register ANY kind of pet!

Here's some links:

http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/truth_about_the_oeb/

http://deeanna19.tripod.com/luvapudd...ppy_mills.html

http://muttcats.com/articles/puppy_mill.htm




Now there are some people who breed pet quality kittens/dogs, but they don't show nor do they breed to a standard. They breed decent cats and have contracts. I'm not sure I'd put them in a BYB catagory, but still I think its wrong just to breed cats without breeding to a standard.
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by Abymummy

or allows their queens to breed once every 4 months (ie. more than 2 litters a year, no respite)
That puts me squarely in the BYB category.

Nearly all my bengal girls go right back into heat when their kits are 6 weeks. Some go into perpetual heat, other are week on week off.

Can't risk their infertility or Pyo problems, so after 3 strong heats they get bred. This is also under the advice of my Vet.

Bengals are different. Our girls get their first heat as early as 4 months. I once had to breed a girl at 7 months because she cycled in and out of heat every 3 days since the time she was 4 1/2 months old.

I've thought about using the pill available from Europe, but I've heard more than a few breeders say it permanently kept their girls from going into heat. I'm not willing to take that chance.
 

goldenkitty45

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Nail I would NOT put you into the BYB catagory!. Oci's are the same way - I thought it was horrible that the females were having 2 litters a year, but after talking to several Oci breeders, found out they are like the Bengals - come in season early and often. You cannot hold back on them. Jack's breeder lost several breeding females this past winter/spring cause she had to hold off breeding (pyro). As long as the girls are healthy and can handle a few litters like that, I see no problem.

That might be why you see breeding girls being spayed after 2-3 yrs max of breeding so they don't have to be breeding machines their entire lives.
 

arlyn

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I would have to lump in the irresponsible pet owners, who, for one reason or another, refuse to get their pets fixed.

Once is an oops litter, twice or more yearly is a BYB whether they sell the kittens or not.
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Nail I would NOT put you into the BYB catagory!. Oci's are the same way - I thought it was horrible that the females were having 2 litters a year, but after talking to several Oci breeders, found out they are like the Bengals - come in season early and often. You cannot hold back on them. Jack's breeder lost several breeding females this past winter/spring cause she had to hold off breeding (pyro). As long as the girls are healthy and can handle a few litters like that, I see no problem.

That might be why you see breeding girls being spayed after 2-3 yrs max of breeding so they don't have to be breeding machines their entire lives.
Thanks Martice!
Putting a finger on a BYB is actually difficult unless it's completely obvious to the most casual observer.

BYB,(I hate this term), imo, have different categories. Some are one or two litter wonders, some are hoarders with 60 or more breeding cats, others are calculating money hungry misguided entreprenuers who make a small profit at the cats expense. There are other categories as well.

I think the term "back yard breeder" is a misnomer. It's a term used in general to degrade breeders of animals, legit or not. What would be the appropriate and acceptable term for a breeder? Living room breeder? Cattery breeder, In home Breeder?

Our cattery and our outdoor enclosures are both in our back yard. So, technically, we are back yard breeding.

I'd like to see the acronym LB used at some time in the future. Legitimate Breeder. ILB (illegitimate breeder) can be used for those in all the other categories.

I know my wife and I are LB's. We do everything for the good of our cats and kittens. Housing/care/nutrition/socialization/entertainment/health/comfort are all equally provided for.
 
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abymummy

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Thanks Martice!
Putting a finger on a BYB is actually difficult unless it's completely obvious to the most casual observer.

BYB,(I hate this term), imo, have different categories. Some are one or two litter wonders, some are hoarders with 60 or more breeding cats, others are calculating money hungry misguided entreprenuers who make a small profit at the cats expense. There are other categories as well.

I think the term "back yard breeder" is a misnomer. It's a term used in general to degrade breeders of animals, legit or not. What would be the appropriate and acceptable term for a breeder? Living room breeder? Cattery breeder, In home Breeder?

Our cattery and our outdoor enclosures are both in our back yard. So, technically, we are back yard breeding.

I'd like to see the acronym LB used at some time in the future. Legitimate Breeder. ILB (illegitimate breeder) can be used for those in all the other categories.

I know my wife and I are LB's. We do everything for the good of our cats and kittens. Housing/care/nutrition/socialization/entertainment/health/comfort are all equally provided for.
Ohh I like the term LB...and no, you are in no way a BYB even though semantics (since your cattery is in your back yard) would put you there!

I find myself in your position of having to mate my girls far more frequently than expected...from 3 x every two years to perhaps (depending on the calender) 4 litters every two years...Ms. Bulan and Reecie tell me to do so...Bu's babies are 4 months old and she is now experiencing her 2nd severe heat...I must mate her soon to avoid any other complications...so maybe Nail, what we discussed may be happening sooner than expected!
 

missymotus

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I've thought about using the pill available from Europe, but I've heard more than a few breeders say it permanently kept their girls from going into heat. I'm not willing to take that chance.
Have you thought of keeping a vasectomised boy? Many breeders over here keep toy boys and report it keeps the girls off heat for around 6 weeks.

with persistent callers you still need to mate them twice a year, but they get a bit more of a break in between.
 
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abymummy

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Originally Posted by missymotus

Have you thought of keeping a vasectomised boy? Many breeders over here keep toy boys and report it keeps the girls off heat for around 6 weeks.

with persistent callers you still need to mate them twice a year, but they get a bit more of a break in between.
The problem with that is that once "mated" the queens can go into false pregnancies which is a whole other problem. Until the "pill" for queens is perfected I'm sticking with the "cold, dark room" solution for as long as I can....
 

sol

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I agree on everything you wrote except from on no. 1. I believe a whole bunch of the ByBs care about their cats, they just don't have enough knowledge to breed them well. Maybe not enough to be able to tell when it's time to contact the vet either. A lot of misery is caused by lack of knowledge. I discuss this more or less on a daily basis with stable owners who let their cats breed without any control whatsoever. The owners love their cats and they value them highly, but they don't really know what they can cause by allowing the cats to breed like they do. They don't know about pet ensurances (which basically is a must here if you wanna be able to pay for more advanced veterinary care) or when it's time to contact the vet.

Some of them are however quite willing to learn if they're informed (and not blamed).
 

sol

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I've thought about using the pill available from Europe, but I've heard more than a few breeders say it permanently kept their girls from going into heat. I'm not willing to take that chance.
I've never heard about any female becoming sterile from the pills, not from the pills we have in Sweden. From the shot, yeah but that's the pill injected multiplied with... 1000? I'd say most breeders in Sweden do use the pill, I've used it myself (short term) and most never have any problems with it. However, when the pill do cause problem it's serious problems like pyometra, mammary cancer and diabetes mellitus.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Now there are some people who breed pet quality kittens/dogs, but they don't show nor do they breed to a standard. They breed decent cats and have contracts. I'm not sure I'd put them in a BYB catagory, but still I think its wrong just to breed cats without breeding to a standard.
I believe this is the category I would place Bijou's breeder. She does have a contract, she has a vet who gives the shots before kittens are picked up from her (except for the boosters of course), she feeds a fairly good quality of food, socializes the kittens beautifully, and really cares about her cats as one can tell from being in her home. Her kittens are naturally cheaper than a show type breeder, but then I don't want or need a show quality cat and having papers that say my cat is from a Grand Champion isn't important to me. I understand why it would be important to other show breeders though and appreciate those folks who are keeping a quality line of breeds going.

In essense, for people like me there are "breeders" like Bijou's breeder.
 

ferriscat

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BYBs serve a market that demands distinguished, beautiful, and high quality kittens at a low price. Of course, we all know that such kittens don't really exist and this leads to countless tales of heartbreak.

Not only this, however, there are BYBs that seek to distinguish their pretty house cats by registering them as an established breed with a paper registry (eg: TCA) We get this a lot in the world of minority breeds; people will self-certify a cat and try to pass off the kittens as an established breed. Here, a BYB becomes a destructive force towards the established breed, especially when reciprocity agreements exist between registries. It's a horrible practive for all involed; the cats involved go from one hard life to another, the kitten buyers are cheated and don't get what they think they pay for, and the breed's reputation is tarnished.
 

ferriscat

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Originally Posted by Sol

I've never heard about any female becoming sterile from the pills, not from the pills we have in Sweden.
Perhaps it isn't the pill, but the abuse of the pill. I have heard of quite a few females that were put on the pill to keep condition while campaigning. Come May, when the season is over, they can't conceive.
 
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abymummy

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Originally Posted by Yosemite

I believe this is the category I would place Bijou's breeder. She does have a contract, she has a vet who gives the shots before kittens are picked up from her (except for the boosters of course), she feeds a fairly good quality of food, socializes the kittens beautifully, and really cares about her cats as one can tell from being in her home. Her kittens are naturally cheaper than a show type breeder, but then I don't want or need a show quality cat and having papers that say my cat is from a Grand Champion isn't important to me. I understand why it would be important to other show breeders though and appreciate those folks who are keeping a quality line of breeds going.

In essense, for people like me there are "breeders" like Bijou's breeder.
Ahhhhhh - I was waiting for someone to say this....


Would Bijou's breeder qualify as a BYB? To all intents and purposes, no. Notice I didn't put showing as a numbered point.

This post may ramble, I hope you can understand, hard to put thoughts in order when exhausted!

Some LBs serve a higher purpose - especially those preserving rare breeds such as the Trad Siamese.

Now we come to the crux of the matter - Contracts. Contracts cover both buyer and seller. Most importantly, a speuter agreement is there, a no de-claw, no selling to pet shops nor to research facilities), no outdoor activity unless supervised and also, a return agreement for any reason (touching only the basics here).

What do we call then when really good breeders who do not qualify for any of the points above sell ALL cats entire? Are they BYB's or ILBs then?
 

goldenkitty45

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A breeder who doesn't spay/neuter their kittens nor require the new owner to do so in a contract are backyard breeders and not legit/good breeders.

Yos - you can still breed to a standard and produce pet quality kittens too - but to breed ALL pet quality kittens is wrong. Not every kitten produced is show quality - in a litter of 4 kittens you might get 1-2 kittens that are worthy for show, the others would have minor faults as far as a standard, but make very good pets.

The GOAL is to produce quality cats - not just pets.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by Abymummy

Some LBs serve a higher purpose - especially those preserving rare breeds such as the Trad Siamese.

Gaye's gorgeous cats are a wonderful example of this. I hate to say it, but I personally really dislike the look of the modern Siamese cat.

What do we call then when really good breeders who do not qualify for any of the points above sell ALL cats entire? Are they BYB's or ILBs then?
If they sell the cats intact without a clause for neutering, then IMO they are being irresponsible and should be run out of business.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

A breeder who doesn't spay/neuter their kittens nor require the new owner to do so in a contract are backyard breeders and not legit/good breeders.

Yos - you can still breed to a standard and produce pet quality kittens too - but to breed ALL pet quality kittens is wrong. Not every kitten produced is show quality - in a litter of 4 kittens you might get 1-2 kittens that are worthy for show, the others would have minor faults as far as a standard, but make very good pets.

The GOAL is to produce quality cats - not just pets.
I agree with you and you responsible breeders are producing quality cats. Having said that, I doubt that I could afford one of your cats, even pet quality.

Bijou's breeder is nowhere near your caliber of breeder, but she is producing quality cats from dames and sires that are well cared for and loved. Every couple of years she gets new breeding dames from other breeders. I have only seen the one sire, Isaac. But then I haven't seen her but once since we got Bijou. We went to visit one day with both Bijou and Mika and she was thrilled to see how loved and cared for they were.

I don't want to see kitty-mill types of breeders thrive but I do believe there is a place for breeders such as Bijou's for the ordinary folks like us that crave a breed but can't afford the high end breeder prices. My dream was a lilac or blue point Siamese since I was very young. Bijou is my dream cat that I waited 40+ years to get. Would I get another? I don't know. After volunteering for a shelter, I would probably give a shelter kitty a good home, but then again, for 40+ years I gave shelter kitties and barn cats a warm, safe, home so perhaps I've paid part of my debt to help these dear animals.
 

missymotus

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A spay/neuter contract is not good enough IMO, all too often they are not adhered to. Kittens need to leave already desexed, to unsure they don't reproduce either from a BYB or an oops litter.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I don't want to see kitty-mill types of breeders thrive but I do believe there is a place for breeders such as Bijou's for the ordinary folks like us that crave a breed but can't afford the high end breeder prices
Sorry but I disagree, I think everyone can afford the 'high end prices' it just means some have to save up a little longer rather than get what they wish for right away.
Nothing wrong with saving for several years before purchasing a cat/kitten from a breeder.
 

sol

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When some breeders sell cheap purebreeds I can't stop thinking about what costs they're cutting down on. It doesn't cost me more to breed a breeding or show cat than a pet cat. The vet costs are the same, the food costs are the same, they use the same amount of litter etc.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by missymotus

A spay/neuter contract is not good enough IMO, all too often they are not adhered to. Kittens need to leave already desexed, to unsure they don't reproduce either from a BYB or an oops litter.



Sorry but I disagree, I think everyone can afford the 'high end prices' it just means some have to save up a little longer rather than get what they wish for right away.
Nothing wrong with saving for several years before purchasing a cat/kitten from a breeder.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I guess I really should have said that I probably would not PAY the higher price if I can get my healthy dream cat at a lower price.

Originally Posted by Sol

When some breeders sell cheap purebreeds I can't stop thinking about what costs they're cutting down on. It doesn't cost me more to breed a breeding or show cat than a pet cat. The vet costs are the same, the food costs are the same, they use the same amount of litter etc.
I may be way out to lunch but are the breeders charging the higher prices for pet kittens in order to pay their expenses for perfecting their show cats? My friend bought a pet quality Ragdoll and paid $700 for it several years ago. I think they are beautiful cats but I would not pay that much money nor do I think it cost the breeder $3,500 for this litter of 5 kittens. Maybe she had to pay high prices for stud fees - in which case the other breeder is probably charging high prices. I don't want to pay for those stud fees for a pet quality cat.

I'm not trying to negate what you quality breeders to. My friend is in a financial position that $700 is a drop in the bucket to her. For me it isn't so I would not pay that price no matter how badly I wanted a Ragdoll. There is a market out there for the more expensive bred cats. I doubt they are any more well cared for than my cheap cat, but nevertheless there are folks that can afford and will pay the higher prices. I won't.

So, as I said before, I got a quality cat who is totally awesome and the most wonderful cat we've ever had for $225. Yes, I had his booster shots done and paid for the neutering myself so theoretically if you add this to the cost of the cat you would have to add another $150 so Bijou cost me $375. I think that's a fair price. Mika is the same - healthy and beautiful with a perfect disposition/temperament - from the same breeder. Our friends got one of her kittens after meeting Bijou and again - excellent cat, happy cat parents.
 
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