What IS a backyard breeder?

Thank you Linda for the view I have of what I call the non cattery breeder ... they breed quality but not at the $$$$ that those like you and I cant afford

I tried SOOOOO hard to stay out of this discussion ... but I find I can't so, here I go, on a soapbox again *sigh*

I like Nial's versions ... Legitimate Breeder and Irresponsible Breeder ... it works for me much, much better than the term Backyard Breeder.

That all now being said - according to some of you, I fall squarely into the Irresponsible Breeder category. My cats most certainly do not meet the current breed standard for Siamese in the association I choose to pursue. If I want to change their breed name AND history, I can register them in a different association and call them Thai. Or, if I want to completely change the look of the kittens I breed, I can register them in yet another association and call them Old Style Siamese - but the standard for that organization looks nothing like the Old Style Siamese. All one has to do is look at the old pictures and see this for themselves.

I do not show my cats simply because I cannot. There are no sponsored shows anywhere at all nearby me ... I cannot travel far due to both time and money restrictions at present.

I do not alter my kittens before placing them because I cannot find a reputable vet I feel I can trust to do pediatric spay/neuter for a reasonable price. I do sell my kittens with a spay/neuter agreement and as an incentive, I offer a rebate of the purchase price to the buyer when the spay/neuter documents come back to me from the vet for that kitten.

I take extremely good care of my cats. They get the highest quality foods I can afford, they have more toys and condos than any other cats I know and they are pampered, respected, and well-loved members of my home. They are not allowed outside unless my husband or I have them securely in a carrier.

OK, now for the part I was really hoping to avoid here ...

I resent the attitudes of those who feel that because I am not producing kittens that meet the current breed standards that I should not be breeding. This kind of closed-minded philosophy is what (if you'll pardon the expression) breeds the misinformation which is used against reputable breeders of many of the breeds we are trying to preserve.

OK, off my soapbox now and on to fixing lunch.

Originally Posted by gayef

I tried SOOOOO hard to stay out of this discussion ... but I find I can't so, here I go, on a soapbox again *sigh*

I like Nial's versions ... Legitimate Breeder and Irresponsible Breeder ... it works for me much, much better than the term Backyard Breeder.

That all now being said - according to some of you, I fall squarely into the Irresponsible Breeder category. My cats most certainly do not meet the current breed standard for Siamese in the association I choose to pursue. If I want to change their breed name AND history, I can register them in a different association and call them Thai. Or, if I want to completely change the look of the kittens I breed, I can register them in yet another association and call them Old Style Siamese - but the standard for that organization looks nothing like the Old Style Siamese. All one has to do is look at the old pictures and see this for themselves.

I do not show my cats simply because I cannot. There are no sponsored shows anywhere at all nearby me ... I cannot travel far due to both time and money restrictions at present.

I do not alter my kittens before placing them because I cannot find a reputable vet I feel I can trust to do pediatric spay/neuter for a reasonable price. I do sell my kittens with a spay/neuter agreement and as an incentive, I offer a rebate of the purchase price to the buyer when the spay/neuter documents come back to me from the vet for that kitten.

I take extremely good care of my cats. They get the highest quality foods I can afford, they have more toys and condos than any other cats I know and they are pampered, respected, and well-loved members of my home. They are not allowed outside unless my husband or I have them securely in a carrier.

OK, now for the part I was really hoping to avoid here ...

I resent the attitudes of those who feel that because I am not producing kittens that meet the current breed standards that I should not be breeding. This kind of closed-minded philosophy is what (if you'll pardon the expression) breeds the misinformation which is used against reputable breeders of many of the breeds we are trying to preserve.

OK, off my soapbox now and on to fixing lunch.

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I was wondering if you would be able to resist very long.

Seriously Gaye, I would take any one of your cats over some other breeders any day, any time. Your cats are beautiful IMO. Although Hope has a beautiful Siamese, I personally do not care for the new Modern look. As for the change of name to Thai cats, Thailand was formerly called Siam and IMO the cats should not be renamed because the country was renamed.

If we only had "reputable" breeders, there would no longer be old style or applehead Siamese being bred or available and that would be a very big loss as far as I'm concerned. I am a member of a Siamese site in the UK and their cats are all the modern cats which some folks love and I admit some are aesthetically OK IMO, but others I find not so "pretty". One member there was looking for an old style or applehead cat and could not find one in England and if my memory serves me correctly, not even in other areas of Europe. That is more of a tragedy to me than having breeders like you keeping this line of Siamese alive and well.

And, then - there is George. Now for him I well might pay $1000. My husband would leave me but I'd have George.

Gaye hon, you serve a higher purpose...preserving a breed! I'll not comment on the pediatric speuter...a lot of slow maturing breed breeders (try saying that quickly!) speuter late...

I did not start the thread to cause friction. I started the thread to help people identify LB's and ILBs (a term I also prefer, thanks Nial!).

In the end, I believe there is room for all breeders EXCEPT for kitten mills.

(I'm going to get killed over that last statement, aren't I....)

Gayef,

I understand some of your points, but have a few questions for you. If you cannot show in the association you are registered with, then why not re-register them into the other association and show them as the Thai Siamese?

I'm sure you are a very good breeder, but I don't agree with you on not breeding to a standard. IMO if they fit the Thai standard, breed to that.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Gayef,

I understand some of your points, but have a few questions for you. If you cannot show in the association you are registered with, then why not re-register them into the other association and show them as the Thai Siamese?

I'm sure you are a very good breeder, but I don't agree with you on not breeding to a standard. IMO if they fit the Thai standard, breed to that.

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Naturally I'll let Gaye answer this for herself, but my understanding is that they wouldn't be allowed to use the name "Siamese" - they would have to be called Thai cats and Siamese folks don't take kindly to that which I would take issue with myself. (Forgive me Gaye if I'm wrong but if so, at least I too will be getting an education.)

The thread is in here because a lot of us here (in this particular forum) are/were breeders and/or pedigree cat owners. It's not in IMO because I believe (and apparently, correctly so) that we can discuss this in a rational manner without the thread degrading to the usual breeder bashing!

Originally Posted by Abymummy

The thread is in here because a lot of us here (in this particular forum) are/were breeders and/or pedigree cat owners. It's not in IMO because I believe (and apparently, correctly so) that we can discuss this in a rational manner without the thread degrading to the usual breeder bashing!

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Did I miss something? Was there bashing?

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Did I miss something? Was there bashing?

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Nope! Just trying to AVOID bashing!

I fully agree that there should be a place for the traditional applehead Siamese; as a Siamese and not something else. I can think of a few other breeds that have also become so extreme that their traditional counterparts can no longer be recognized.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

We'll have to agree to disagree. I guess I really should have said that I probably would not PAY the higher price if I can get my healthy dream cat at a lower price.

I may be way out to lunch but are the breeders charging the higher prices for pet kittens in order to pay their expenses for perfecting their show cats? My friend bought a pet quality Ragdoll and paid $700 for it several years ago. I think they are beautiful cats but I would not pay that much money nor do I think it cost the breeder $3,500 for this litter of 5 kittens. Maybe she had to pay high prices for stud fees - in which case the other breeder is probably charging high prices. I don't want to pay for those stud fees for a pet quality cat.

I'm not trying to negate what you quality breeders to. My friend is in a financial position that $700 is a drop in the bucket to her. For me it isn't so I would not pay that price no matter how badly I wanted a Ragdoll. There is a market out there for the more expensive bred cats. I doubt they are any more well cared for than my cheap cat, but nevertheless there are folks that can afford and will pay the higher prices. I won't.

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I personally have no problems believing the breeder had costs on about $3,500 on a litter of five. I haven't done the math on my latest litter but I did count on my second litter (3 kittens) and I simply stopped counting when I got to $3,000. This for one litter of 3 healthy kittens, no c-section or other complication. But I know vet care in general is more expensive in Sweden than in the US so costs can't be compared straight off like that.

Why wouldn't pet buyers pay for stud fees? Without a stud, no kittens. No pet kittens, no show kittens and no future breeding cats. It costs money even to produce pet kittens, a lot of money.

I am in no way a wealthy person and I certainly wasn't wealthy when I bought my first purebreed, 17 years old. No steady job, only savings from badly payed jobs I had had during the summers. I still managed to save up for a purebreed. I just took some time.

I still get suspicious when purebreeds are sold cheap... I can't get away from that.

I guess I would have to ask is it wrong for a person to want to raise a litter or 2 a year because they love their chosen breed but can't really afford to show or maybe work on weekends or like someone else posted they are preserving the orignal breed? What if they chose their breeding stock from very decent lines, had all the necessary testing, and had contracts? I would make exceptions for this breeder.

IMO a backyard breeder is someone who breeds animals that are not in good health, knowingly breeds animals that can have or have passed on health problems, does not take in age or how many litters produce by the animal into any consideration, does nothing to learn better husbandry/genetics/vet care practices, does not provide appropiate socialization, has poor sanitary conditions.

Originally Posted by kitytize

I guess I would have to ask is it wrong for a person to want to raise a litter or 2 a year because they love their chosen breed but can't really afford to show or maybe work on weekends or like someone else posted they are preserving the orignal breed? What if they chose their breeding stock from very decent lines, had all the necessary testing, and had contracts? I would make exceptions for this breeder.

IMO a backyard breeder is someone who breeds animals that are not in good health, knowingly breeds animals that can have or have passed on health problems, does not take in age or how many litters produce by the animal into any consideration, does nothing to learn better husbandry/genetics/vet care practices, does not provide appropiate socialization, has poor sanitary conditions.

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I don't see showing as a necessary part of serious breeding. My current queen comes from a breeder who doesn't show much at all, hardly anything. However, she's got a good eye and manage to breed beautyful cats. She also has a distinct look in her cats, you simply can't miss that a cat comes from her cattery because they have "her look".

I haven't shown a cat in 2 years. I simply don't have anything to show. I only have my one queen now and she's retired from showing.

Originally Posted by Sol

My current queen comes from a breeder who doesn't show much at all, hardly anything. However, she's got a good eye and manage to breed beautyful cats. She also has a distinct look in her cats, you simply can't miss that a cat comes from her cattery because they have "her look".
.

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This caught my interest and I would love to expand on this.
If she doesn't show actively then how does she know for sure they are standard and beautiful for their breed? How did she get that "good eye"? A lot of people say they have a good idea, but I don't think that means all of those people should be breeding.

Showing is more than a lot of people think, it educates the breeder, they get to lots of other cats, get familiar with other lines, see the various styles of others, and get a better rounded knowledge of their breed by attending and competing. It helps the breeding stock, the lines, the cats too, the experience and exposure and collective knowledge is important for overall health and to access more about the breed. This information is critical IMO when breeding cats, it is dynamic, always changing, and one or two past experiences can't give you the same depth of knowledge that being active and involved can, no book can give that to someone. To me, as a buyer, it shows commitment to the breed and that they are interested in being active with their cats and with their knowledge of their breed(s). Of course, the breeder has to do more than just show to be a good breeder, I also expect a high standard of care in all ways, etc.

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

That puts me squarely in the BYB category.

Nearly all my bengal girls go right back into heat when their kits are 6 weeks. Some go into perpetual heat, other are week on week off.

Can't risk their infertility or Pyo problems, so after 3 strong heats they get bred. This is also under the advice of my Vet.

Bengals are different. Our girls get their first heat as early as 4 months. I once had to breed a girl at 7 months because she cycled in and out of heat every 3 days since the time she was 4 1/2 months old.

I've thought about using the pill available from Europe, but I've heard more than a few breeders say it permanently kept their girls from going into heat. I'm not willing to take that chance.

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Same goes with me. Two of my girls got pyo a few months ago just from me trying to hold them off until the kittens were 12 weeks old. Most of my girls go into and stay in heat when the kittens are 3-5 weeks old. Just trying to hold them off until the kittens are weined is often difficult.

Originally Posted by cococat

This caught my interest and I would love to expand on this.
If she doesn't show actively then how does she know for sure they are standard and beautiful for their breed? How did she get that "good eye"? A lot of people say they have a good idea, but I don't think that means all of those people should be breeding.

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I generally agree on your post but would like to expand on only the above:

For certain established breeds (like Abyssinians for example) there is a certain "type" which is generally preferred (registries notwithstanding). When one has been a breeder and active in showing you can generally spot a "top show/breeder" without really holding the cat. Also, the lines (the pedigree) will tell you a true story.

The breeder of my soon to be new foundations is thinking of retiring in the next couple of years. Once she does, the world will lose an awesome breeder of Abyssinians. Since she will not be actively showing anymore does not mean that she wont know what she is looking at when she looks at an Aby!

Even though trends change in various breeds itself, the core of a breed should remain true. A good eye is simply that - a good eye.

An example if you will:

There is a certain famous exhibitor in the CFA show circuits. She no longer breeds but now merely shows for other people. The cats she shows never fail to become a National Winner. A lot of people ask her to be the show agent for them and yet she only chooses to show one cat or two a year. Invariably the cat is almost always a Persian. This lady doesn't have a good eye, she has fantastic eyes!

I think that once you know what you are doing as a breeder you develop the skills to see a top show or breeder to a pet. I may not breed Persians, Exotics even Maine Coons but I do know a good one when I see it!

Originally Posted by cococat

This caught my interest and I would love to expand on this.
If she doesn't show actively then how does she know for sure they are standard and beautiful for their breed? How did she get that "good eye"? A lot of people say they have a good idea, but I don't think that means all of those people should be breeding.

Showing is more than a lot of people think, it educates the breeder, they get to lots of other cats, get familiar with other lines, see the various styles of others, and get a better rounded knowledge of their breed by attending and competing. It helps the breeding stock, the lines, the cats too, the experience and exposure and collective knowledge is important for overall health and to access more about the breed. This information is critical IMO when breeding cats, it is dynamic, always changing, and one or two past experiences can't give you the same depth of knowledge that being active and involved can, no book can give that to someone. To me, as a buyer, it shows commitment to the breed and that they are interested in being active with their cats and with their knowledge of their breed(s). Of course, the breeder has to do more than just show to be a good breeder, I also expect a high standard of care in all ways, etc.

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I think a breeder can develop a good eye and not show. I rarely show, because I don't enjoy being around a lot of people, but I talk with lots of breeders all of the time and visit other catteries. I get opinions from other breeders as well. I certainly think I have a "good eye" and know if a bengal fits the standard.

If what your saying about needing to show is true, then the same could be said for bengal breeders who have never seen a ALC in real life. Since our standard is modeled after the ALC, how could they truely know the standard well unless they have been exposed to the ALC.

See what I am saying? There are other ways to learn the standard without actually showing. Showing is not for everyone.

Great thread! I've had fun reading through the posts! Very interesting information about the more wild breeds like bengals!

To all intents and purposes I believe that it all boils done to what the Malays call "HAJAT" which means intention.

Why does one breed at all, knowing that there are many, many strays looking for loving homes?

An irresponsible breeder breeds to satisfy market demands...in Asia it is for Long Hairs. You get your hands on a couple or more long hair cats, breed them silly and sell the kittens anywhere from US$200- even US$500!

We even have a market for imported "pedigrees" that sell for a higher price than locally breed, papered pet quality pedigrees!

So in the end, there are responsible, reputable breeders who go all out to:

1. Breed according to standards and a strict code of ETHICS
2. Breed a dying and/or traditional breed

And then there are the PURE kitten mills - people who breed for the money. And yes, if you ARE a kitten mill you WILL make money...

Comments?

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I was wondering if you would be able to resist very long.

Seriously Gaye, I would take any one of your cats over some other breeders any day, any time. Your cats are beautiful IMO ...

... If we only had "reputable" breeders, there would no longer be old style or applehead Siamese being bred or available and that would be a very big loss as far as I'm concerned. I am a member of a Siamese site in the UK ... One member there was looking for an old style or applehead cat and could not find one in England and if my memory serves me correctly, not even in other areas of Europe. That is more of a tragedy to me than having breeders like you keeping this line of Siamese alive and well.

And, then - there is George. Now for him I well might pay $1000.

My husband would leave me but I'd have George.

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Thank you, Linda, for the compliments on my cats. I also prefer the look they have ... more refined than an "applehead" with that elegant slender body and taller legs.

I believe there are at least a couple of breeders in Germany, I think, who are breeding to the TICA Thai Standard. However, as I mentioned before, I find it unfair and historically incorrect to call a Siamese anything other than a Siamese. In fact, a lot of the so-called Thai cats do not possess any of the old blood lines and IMO should never be confused with an Old Style Siamese - the proof is always in the pedigree.

George would have you, too, sweetheart. *smile* He really is one of the mushiest mush-buckets I have ever known. And "Bruce" wouldn't leave you ... George would wrap his soft little blue paws right around "Bruce" and that would be that.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Gayef,

I understand some of your points, but have a few questions for you. If you cannot show in the association you are registered with, then why not re-register them into the other association and show them as the Thai Siamese?

I'm sure you are a very good breeder, but I don't agree with you on not breeding to a standard. IMO if they fit the Thai standard, breed to that.

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Martice, I choose not to register my cats as Thai cats because they are NOT Thai cats. They are Siamese. ALL of their ancestors are Siamese and all of their offspring are Siamese. By registering my cats as Thai cats, it effectively wipes everything out and they start over ... with NONE of the history behind them. I find that to be incorrect, unfair and simply put, WRONG and I won't do it. I also strongly disagree with how the whole Old Style Siamese thing came about in CFF and have been extremely disappointed with their adaptation of the Old Style Siamese breed standard ... which, if you read the standard, does NOT at all describe an OSS, it describes what amounts to a domestic shorthaired cat in a Siamese colored wrapper.

And for whatever it may be worth, I ~do~ breed to a standard. It isn't today's currently recognized standard, but it used to be ... and as a Breed Preservationist, that is my goal - to protect the traits of the original Siamese cats. I cannot breed to produce cats who meet today's current standards as that would be totally defeating the purpose of preservation. If you are unclear about the original standards throughout the years, there is a great article showing all of the Siamese breed standards and how they have evolved into the current standard.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Naturally I'll let Gaye answer this for herself, but my understanding is that they wouldn't be allowed to use the name "Siamese" - they would have to be called Thai cats and Siamese folks don't take kindly to that which I would take issue with myself. (Forgive me Gaye if I'm wrong but if so, at least I too will be getting an education.)

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For those of us who object, it isn't so much the name as it is the total anihilation of the true origins of the cat. When an otherwise Siamese cat is registered as a Thai, they effectively give up their ancestry and will forever more be known as a Thai cat. All of the offspring they produce will never be Siamese again.

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

I fully agree that there should be a place for the traditional applehead Siamese; as a Siamese and not something else. I can think of a few other breeds that have also become so extreme that their traditional counterparts can no longer be recognized.

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Can anyone say "Persian"? *smile*

Originally Posted by kitytize

I guess I would have to ask is it wrong for a person to want to raise a litter or 2 a year because they love their chosen breed but can't really afford to show or maybe work on weekends or like someone else posted they are preserving the orignal breed? What if they chose their breeding stock from very decent lines, had all the necessary testing, and had contracts? I would make exceptions for this breeder.

IMO a backyard breeder is someone who breeds animals that are not in good health, knowingly breeds animals that can have or have passed on health problems, does not take in age or how many litters produce by the animal into any consideration, does nothing to learn better husbandry/genetics/vet care practices, does not provide appropiate socialization, has poor sanitary conditions.

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By making exceptions for the types of breeders you mention in your first paragraph, you would apparently be in the small minority. As you can see from some of the responses here, unless a breeder produces kittens who meet the current breed standard and unless they show those cats, they are summarily dismissed as an irresponsible breeder.

Is that fair? No. It is right? No. But it is a fact.