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post #121 of 141
Bruce is right. Suppose the residents of a Cul-de-sac in "Anytown, USA" had a block party. And during the party, someone reported that someone had been touched inappropriately. So, the police swoop in and take all the children into protective custody?

That is almost exactly what happened here. They are "still investigating" the phone calls they received, but they do already know that the phone belonged to a woman with a well documented history of "crying wolf".
post #122 of 141
They were looking for a reason to go in. It was flimsy but they jumped on it.I don't think for subversive reasons though.
post #123 of 141
Now British Columbia is looking into a polygamist sect: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/am...amy/index.html
post #124 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Bruce is right. Suppose the residents of a Cul-de-sac in "Anytown, USA" had a block party. And during the party, someone reported that someone had been touched inappropriately. So, the police swoop in and take all the children into protective custody?

That is almost exactly what happened here. They are "still investigating" the phone calls they received, but they do already know that the phone belonged to a woman with a well documented history of "crying wolf".
Actually that's not exactly how it happened. The first phone calls only got a response from the police. While there they saw teenagers that were pregnant or that told them they were "married."

According to posters on another message board there were eventually three local warrants and one federal one. So they had more reason to go in than one phone call. The judges are not that lenient.
post #125 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
Actually that's not exactly how it happened. The first phone calls only got a response from the police. While there they saw teenagers that were pregnant or that told them they were "married."

According to posters on another message board there were eventually three local warrants and one federal one. So they had more reason to go in than one phone call. The judges are not that lenient.

Actually that is how it happend. they got a phone call ,they jumped up and down cause now they had there excuse to raid which if fine, they had the paper work that is need.

how much you want to bet that if they had looked into the person that was making the call, they would not have gone in. but the caller gave them there excuse.

WHAT they dont have the right to do, is take EVERY kid. Without due process of the law. which is what was ruled by courts.

if you think they have that right, then we need to just start truning over every new born to the state to raise.
post #126 of 141
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...polygamy_N.htm

This is an article detailing some of the investigations and information that the judge used in issueing the warrent order allowing the children to be seized.

I give you that I cannot find the information about the first visit to investigate the original call, which led to police discovery of pregnant teens.
post #127 of 141
First off, this is much different then a neighborhood or cul-de-sac. These people all belong to 4 families (4 original families that started this sect). They all live under the same rules. They all have pictures of Warren Jeffs in thier homes with the words Pray and Obey underneath. This is a much closer tie to each other then a neighborhood.

The CPS probably got what they wanted most. Control of the children long enough to get the DNA tests done. Although I would bet most of the cowardly men didn't get tested. I would bet that most of the babies to underage girls will not have a father on record. But hopefully they did get the DNA and will have real proof. I only hope they use it and start issueing warrents once they have all their ducks lined up. Also sounds like Warren Jeffs is going to have a few more charges to face.

I don't understand why charges can't be filed in regards to the Lost Boys. I read that even after being abandoned they don't want to testify against their families. Well charges of abandonment, neglect and child abuse doesn't necessarily need to the permission of the child in question. They should file charges for every boy tossed out.
post #128 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
First off, this is much different then a neighborhood or cul-de-sac..
To me, it isn't about the particulars, or the mechanics of the raid. It's the precedent that it would set. If this raid were to be declared legal land proper, then the very same methods can be used against any group, anywhere. No, it's not a cul-de-sac. But it may be next time. Or a neighborhood; or private school, or church. I agree with Bruce completely on this one, it's a dangerous precedent.
post #129 of 141
I think it boils down to can you consider them one family unit, and I can see plenty of reasons for considering them one family unit. Not just here either. All the sects that follow Warren Jeffs. In fact I have seen single families that are lot more splintered then these people are.
post #130 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
I think it boils down to can you consider them one family unit, .
what it boils down to,
is how much power you want to give the goverment over your life. Do y ou want them to have the power just to walk in to your house, without due process of the law?.

they could have just as easly gone in and taken the dna.
they could have removed the young girls etc. BUt that is not what they did. they removed a large number of kids. without a plan what to do with them.
post #131 of 141
And the little children suffer. Sadly, that is always the way it is.
post #132 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
To me, it isn't about the particulars, or the mechanics of the raid. It's the precedent that it would set. If this raid were to be declared legal land proper, then the very same methods can be used against any group, anywhere. No, it's not a cul-de-sac. But it may be next time. Or a neighborhood; or private school, or church. I agree with Bruce completely on this one, it's a dangerous precedent.
Although this case is an exception to many rules, and unusually complex, CPS (by whatever local name they use) has very broad powers. It is one of those very difficult points of tension between the need to protect the children and the rights of the family.

There are always going to be mistakes in both directions. If CPS does not protect the child and the child dies (this has happened) it is a tragedy beyond bearing. If they protect when they should not (this has also happened) it is a slippery slope.

In this case, it is a cult that demands complete allegiance by its members -- even to the point of demanding that some men marry more than one woman (or girls), or to taking away their wife, or wives, and children and giving them to other men.

The leaders can demand that parents allow their girls to be married before they are willing and their boys be abandoned.

These leaders can demand that the members lie to the "outside world" and in their horribly ugly phrase "bleed the beast" by committing welfare fraud.

Warren Jeffs is still the avowed leader even though he "married" a 12-year-old girl. Who with ordinary good judgement would accept that in their spiritual leader?

I can't see this group as religious in any sense of the word. The members are more than willing to conspire with the leaders to commit the crimes of polygamy, child abuse, unlawful sex with a minor and financial fraud including tax and welfare fraud.
post #133 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
I can't see this group as religious in any sense of the word. The members are more than willing to conspire with the leaders to commit the crimes of polygamy, child abuse, unlawful sex with a minor and financial fraud including tax and welfare fraud.
yep, i see them more a cult then anything else.
post #134 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
actually, that isn't what i said. i said that LDS will say they are Christians. i also said that when i had missionaries visit my door, i attempted to turn them away. when they asked me why, i told them... & they then attempted to argue w/my opinion.
believing in Christ does not make a person a Christian - if it did, Satan would be counted amongst the faithful.
i'd prefer to let the subject drop - but i wanted to correct your misunderstanding about the incident.
i suggested PM so as not to detract from the original subject of the thread... not for so-called "fishy" reasons.
well im sorry that I misunderstood what you said but this is not what you said you responded to someone that said do they believe in Jesus and you said they say they do I even had a couple of missionaries argue with me. So what you are saying now is not what you said then at least thats not the way it came across, and its not up to you nor any other man to say weather someone is christian or not including weather Mormons are christian. That is between them and God it is Gods decision not mans.
post #135 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazycatlover View Post
well im sorry that I misunderstood what you said but this is not what you said you responded to someone that said do they believe in Jesus and you said they say they do I even had a couple of missionaries argue with me. So what you are saying now is not what you said then at least thats not the way it came across, and its not up to you nor any other man to say weather someone is christian or not including weather Mormons are christian. That is between them and God it is Gods decision not mans.
While you raise a valid point, I do believe that point was already raised AFTER the post you have quoted. Please could we ALL stop passing judgement on other people and return to the subject of the thread, i.e. the seizing of the children of that sect. Of course, if we've tired of the subject, we could always close the thread... Thanks.
post #136 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Joseph Smith did NOT write the Book of Mormon, all he did was translate it.
Amen to that
post #137 of 141
A little update from the local newspaper. Good article, I think I agree with her.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008...-on-yfz-ranch/
post #138 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
A little update from the local newspaper. Good article, I think I agree with her.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008...-on-yfz-ranch/
The first part of this opinion piece is the most excellent analysis of this case I've seen. I'd add that the warranted searches were as important as the DNA evidence. I'm hoping the documents and DNA evidence lead to arrests in the future.

The part concerning Warren Jeffs are good, too, but seemed to belong to another line of thought. I understand that Jeffs has been arrested (although still in prison) for sex with minors because of his illegal marriages to three little girls. The pictures and other evidence seized in the searches will provide the legal proof needed in court.

The documents will also shed a lot of light on the financial machinations of the group. The twisted trails will likely let investigators decide if there have been illegal financial activities.
post #139 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
A little update from the local newspaper. Good article, I think I agree with her.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008...-on-yfz-ranch/
Very good editorial.
post #140 of 141
Did anyone notice that the newspaper I linked to has disabled their comment section under the articles? They said they are "re-evaluating" the comment section. I had read many of the "comments" by people when this thing was hot and heavy and WOW, it brought out the whacko's for sure.
post #141 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Did anyone notice that the newspaper I linked to has disabled their comment section under the articles? They said they are "re-evaluating" the comment section. I had read many of the "comments" by people when this thing was hot and heavy and WOW, it brought out the whacko's for sure.
I saw that, and wondered when they'd decided to "re-evaluate". Now I know.
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