Texas Illegally Seized Polygamist Sect’s Children

I agree with you. It seems like they moved in a bit too quickly to take them all out and upset their lives. Even my friend who's a social worker says that the Texas Department of Child Services made a huge mistake. Taking children out of their home is a tactic of last resort.

i dissagree with the lifestyle, but to take 440 children!? my boyfriend and i were mad when we heard about this

The really sad thing about this is because there is not enough proof, many of these children will be returned to that place and the pedifiles living there can continue having sex with any child they want! It was a known fact there were pedifiles in there molesting kids - just not enough proof!

I really feel so sorry for the damaged kids.

How dare the law interfere with their religious beliefs! Hmmm, this reminds me of another thread somewhere.

to a certain extent, i agree - altho, if i'm not mistaken, some of the 'wives' were underage.
i saw an interview in the paper w/the father of some of the kids [he was expelled from the colony for disagreeing w/the practices there] & he felt he should get, at least, temporary custody, since they are his kids, too.

I can't think of this objectively because the whole situation turns my stomach. It seems there must be some way to end the polygamist practices of this group.

Gender inequality is a basic part of polygamy. It can never be a marriage of equal partners.

I've done some thinking and it is obvious that no society can have polygamy for all men. It is clearly impossible for all men to have 3-4 wives.

Generally men and women are roughly equal in any population. So if all men marry than so will all women. If some men marry 2 women than half the men will have to remain unmarried. If some men marry 3 women than 2/3s of the men will remain unmarried. If some men marry 4 women than 3/4s of the men will remain unmarried.

Some members of the church leadership have had as many as 20 wives. That's a lot of single men.

The FLDS leadership has dealt with this quandry by:

1. Taking the wives of some men and giving them to men more favored by the leadership,
2. Expelling young men,
3. Reducing the marriagable age of women from that of high school graduation, to 16 and now to 14.

Number 1 is clearly unfair to the husbands, wives and children. Numbers 2 and 3 amount to child abuse.

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20...RSS&source=RSS
http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20...RSS&source=RSS

I disagree with the lifestyle strongly. I don't think it is the healthiest environment for children. BUT we do have something called due process. If there were abused children then they should have proof to remove them. Any illegal activities should have been prosecuted. It is against the law to marry a minor.

It should be, but it's not. Parental consent is usually all that's needed for a minor to get married. Most states won't marry anyone under 16 or 14, depending on the circumstances, though. Presumably, since the parents and children were all happily involved in this religious group, they had parental consent.

I think the legal age to marry should be 18 across the board, personally.

So, while I think these people are weirdos, if there's no proof of any illegal activity, you can't keep their kids, and it's debatable whether or not they even had sufficient reason to raid the place and take hundreds of kids away from their family members.

I agree. While the law can regulate behavior, it cannot regulate beliefs. And it has to be done on a case-by-case basis. If they have evidence that a child is being abused in any way defined by the law, then they have to gone in and get that child. There's no way all 400-some were in danger.

I saw some of their women interviewed on TV. While we may think they're kooky, and we don't agree with their lifestyle, or their beliefs (in my case....can't speak for anybody else ), I thought they looked and sounded fairly harmless.

Jeffs is in prison on aiding and abetting but the guy who they say did it, is still out and free. I don't know what their motives are there, but it sure looks like they want to shut this place down. Of course, they have to enforce the laws, and if there's wholesale illegal activities going on there, I'd say go for it. But frankly this sounds an awful lot like the state trying to step on a religious group they don't like.

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

I know that there are some in the cult who are not practicing polygamy and are raising their own children in a family unit with one mother and one father, but they are exceptions to what is expected and dictated by their prophet.

It is a very complicated issue. However we must listen to those who have escaped the cult - like Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop and Laurie Allen - all of whom say that the majority of the children are physically and emotionally abused, many teen boys are abandoned, and young girls are being forced into marriages they don't want, and often with close blood relatives.

Many of you who feel that the children need to be reunited with their parents are viewing this personally, as if these cultist people have the same feelings for their children as you and I. Sadly that is not always the case. These people are conditioned to view child bearing as their duty to produce as many children as their fertility will allow. The women are breeding machines. They are taught to NOT establish close emotional ties with their children and to allow them to be raised and diciplined by their plural mothers and father who often doesn't know their name or which mother bore that child. These poor kids are communal property of the cult. This is totally contrary to how we are conditioned to love and care for our children.

I understand how we would all like to believe that these families mirror our own and that they just wear funny clothes. But the sad fact is that it goes much deeper than this.

It isn't about whether this is a "popular" decision or not. It is about the welfare of the children. So I am curious about how closely thouse of you who are against the actions of the Texas CPS have followed this story. Have you read the links where former FLDS women have spoken of the child abuse that routinely goes on? Have you read any books about this cult? Are you aware of the changes in the cult rules after Warren Jeffs took over?

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I just want know that it is an informed opinion, and not just relying on headlines to color your belief.

This is the most considered and thoughtful response I've read on this topic.

As I tried to say before, polygamy is an impossible way of life to maintain. It produces stress on the family that makes impossible to have a happy life.

Even the nuclear families that are living in the FLDS community are under stress as long as the male leaders can take the wife and children away from the husband and give them to another man to live with. No happy family should have to face that possibility.

At the same time, if this happy nuclear family has a son that reaches the late teen years and makes the leaders unhappy in any way (like catching the eye of a young woman) he can be expelled from the community. How impotent they must feel facing that possibility.

Then, what happens when their daughter reaches the age of 14 and is given as a second, third, or fourth "celestrial wife" to a man her father's age or older? If they don't feel any twinge of sadness over this what kind of parents were they, really? Most 14 year old girls realized that they are not old enough to give up their childhood and marry, so I doubt most of these are voluntary first marriages.

Most of the girls given in marriage that are younger than the age of consent are illegally taken as "celestrial wives" because they are not first marriages. They are second, third, or fourth wives, which means they are cannot be legally married. Sex with an underage minor is illegal.

Just as an aside, the young woman taken into custody by CPS that later were shown to be 18 or older, probably originally lied to CPS about their ages. By saying they were underage and taken into custody, they thought they would be able to stay with their children. CPS has been saying over and over that the ages, names, and parents of the children (and these young women) were very difficult to establish because of the lies they were being told.

When I wrote that I was talking about the 12 and 13 year olds. The issue I have with it is the brainwashing and lack of choices. I also don't like that they have some of the 'wives and children' living off of the government even though the cult is extremely wealthy. So you use my tax money when you see fit but you don't want to be governed by the same laws?
They want things both ways.
The things I have read about what goes on from the mouths of people who were lucky enough to escape is scary. People are trapped and threatened if they want to leave.

There is no "freedom of religion" unless people are free to leave the religion when they so choose. This is not the case with the FLDS. They built that compound in Texas with walls, razor wire and guard towers to keep people IN! Read Carolyn Jessop's book "Escape". She writes about how she had to plot to escape with her 8 children, and how she was pursued after her escape. Read Flora Jessop's website http://www.childpro.org/about.htm. Flora is another woman who escaped from this cult.

The problem with this form of polygamy is that there is bound to be an excess number of men. Some of the men in the cult have 20 or more wives. That means that given a nearly equal number of males and females in the population, many men would have to go without wives. So what happens to these excess males? Many teen boys are evicted from the cult without money and abandoned outside the gates. These "Lost Boys" often turn to male prostitution to earn a living, since they have no education or marketable skills.

This is an evil cult, not a religion! Don't be fooled by the PR campaign of the FLDS. Do your own research. There's lots of information on the internet. It isn't pretty.

I applaud Texas for having the guts that Arizona and Utah lack. The Texas CPS acted on good faith when they entered the compound. Again read Carolyn Jessop's book. Read what Flora Jessop has to say about this cult. Become informed. Texas was acting on information that these children were being abused, and they stepped in to protect the children as they should.

I agree with this. This is the classic definition of a cult. Yet they believe it's a legitimate religion. It's their religion. Who's to decide what's a religion and what's not? The state of Texas? The federal government? Neither. It's in the Constitution that the government will not get involved in the "establishment" of religion. Deciding what's a religion and what's not is establishment. The state cannot constitutionally declare this is not a religion.

Yet, the state can regulate behavior. So if any individuals in the "cult" are in violation of any state or federal law, then the state can arrest and prosecute. It's the law that has to be the deciding factor, not whether it's a religion or a cult. And the law cannot make that distinction.

But according to Judge Napalatano, a "religion" cannot make up its own rules if those rules are contrary to the rule of the land. You cannot establish a religion that believes in murdering your first born child, and claim exemption from prosecution under the "freedom of religion" argument. So yes, the courts and the state can declare that a religion is not a religion for the purposes of being able to live according to their "beliefs."

Forcing a 12, 13, 14, or 15 year old girl to "marry" her first cousin and engage in sex is AGAINST THE LAW and not protected under any freedom of religion argument.

Yes, that's correct. I agree with that -- except the part about the state declaring a religion not a religion. That part is unconstitutional. How is the rest of it in any way contrary to what I said?

BUT.......if the religion "believes in murdering your first born child" but never actually does it then you can't arrest and prosecute the whole religion just because they believe that. You could possibly take a child away if they said that child was on their list for the next sacrifice if you thought they meant it and the child was in danger. But you couldn't actually arrest any member of the religion until they actually break the law. We don't have "thought crime" in this country. Not yet, anyway. But Big Brother is at the door.......

I don't disagree with you, but there are documented cases of girls being married off at ages well below the age of consent and against their will. That is enough probable cause to be able to investigate and remove those children that are in danger.

I just finished watching a documentary, "Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen. Ms. Allen was raised in one of the polygamist cults, and this documentary is based on the FLDS cult in Colorado City and Hildale, and toward the end discusses YFZ. I highly recommend this film to anyone interested in learning more about this group. I have also read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer and "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop (both of whom were featured in this documentary).

This is an extremely complicated issue, and I certainly have no easy answers. But interestingly this cult wants it both ways. They have failed to file as a 501c3 non profit (necessary to claim tax exempt status as a church), while still trying to claim "religious persecution" when they are closely looked at by government officials.

The leaders of this group, men like Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop are evil and authoritarian. They are forcing their congregants to live in poverty and on state aid while receiving thousands of dollars in tithes and "contributions" used for their own benefit. Warren Jeffs was arrested in a RED Cadillac Escalade which directing that none of his followers are permitted the color red in their clothing or possessions because that color is reserved for Jesus. Can we say hypocrite? These people are taught to give to the Prophet until their families are starving. They demand unquestioned obedience or risk beatings, banishment, or even "blood atonement." Birth control is absolutely forbidden, and sex is planned around the fertile period of the women so that they can bear as many babies as physically possible.

There is a pecking order. First comes the Prophet, then the men, then the women, and lastly the children. Abuse flows from the top, and the most vunerable are the children.

We have allowed this group to grow to the astounding numbers estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands because we did nothing during the past 50+ years. The numbers will continue to grow and grow until it bleeds taxpayers to the point of breakage. The cult calls it "bleeding the beast" and they are proud of it. Over 75% of the people in Colorado City are receiving welfare compared to 15% for the remainder of Arizona.

I don't know what the answer is, but to do nothing just ensures that more and more children will be born into this bondage to be abused and grow up to be the abusers. Somehow, some way this must be stopped.

Well, we certainly don't need another Waco. However it's handled, it's got to be handled within the law. When there are documented cases of abuse, then they have every right to step in. They can't just haul away 400+ children on spec.

I agree with you Dusty's Mom.

And here I was under the impression that they took NOTHING from the government and were totally self sufficient. I am so naive and gullible, I should have known better.

I thought I would mosey on over to the San Angelo local newspaper and see what the locals had to say about this turn of events.

HOLY COW!!!! Picture of Warren Jeffs and a 12 YEAR OLD GIRL. (Not sexual)

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008...wn-in-hearing/

I've never understood what is illegal about polygamy? The man is only "legally" married to one women. He basically has a spiritual tie with the others, but he is not "married" to them legally.

Basically the man has one wife and several mistresses who call themselves wives, and who all know about each other and don't mind.

Now, where I have a problem is when it involves forcing children into that lifestyle. If it's between consenting adults, fine. If it's between children and adults....not fine.

So far as taking the children from the parents. They did it to protect the children because a serious allegation had been made.

This is a settlement that consists of large family units....really large family units. When CFS comes to take one child from a family, who they deem is at risk, they also take the others too. But they don't take every child on the block. So I can agree if they took the children who were living in the same house and the abused child who called in, but I can't agree taking all of the other children who live on the compound who did not live in that same house.

In Texas they recognize common law marriages, which makes polygamy illegal there. In states where common law marriages are not recognized, then you are correct, since the man is only legally married to one woman.

The problem with the practice of polygamy is not what consenting adults choose to do in the bedroom. It becomes a logistical problem because many more girls are needed within the society to satisfy the many wife requirement of the adult males. Since there is usually a fairly even number of males and females being born, the problem then is what to do with the excess males once they reach the age to marry.

Young people are not allowed to date and cannot choose their spouse. The younger and younger women are assigned to the elder men in the community, and the teen boys are left without. The older men, the ones in control know that they need to reduce the young male population within the cult to eliminate the tendency for the young men and women to socialize and fall in love. As a result most of these young men are forced out of the cult for the most minor infraction, like rolling their sleeves up. These teens are often driven 100 miles from home, forced out of the car without any money, and told to never come back. This is such an emotional shock that many of these boys turn to drugs and male prostitution in order to survive.

This is child abuse any way you cut it. Polygamy wouldn't be much of a problem if none of them ever had kids. It is the kids that suffer the abuse.

It's not polygamy that's the problem, it's the fact they're forcing children into marriage.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html

Here is a link to a website giving Biblical reasons why polygamy is wrong. Practically it is impossible to make polygamy work for the population at large because for every man that has two wives, one man has to remain unmarried.

It also means marriage cannot be a marriage of two partners, since each woman must compete for her partner's attention, time and money. Naturally, each woman fights for the welfare of herself and her children. The left-over men have to be dealt with, too, providing more instability for society at large.

Although the nuclear family and the extended nuclear family stabilize a society and provide for the children, polygamy makes for a destabilizing force for the population as a whole.

It's also cultural. No other group of people have ever attempted to practice polygamy among the general population. Where it has been practiced, it is only among the rules and very wealthy It goes against the traditional beliefs of marriage for most people.

I'm glad the Texas CPS Dept. as realized that this culture is disfunctional and harmful to children by its very nature and I hope that they succeed in keeping it out of Texas.