California finally came to its senses - Page 18  

I think the difference between Paul's day and today is that in his day the message was new. It was not only new, it was so breathtakingly at odds with anything else they might have heard, that it caught their rapt attention, if only to see what the fuss was all about. Today, in a western culture that's had Christianity for close to 2,000 years, people are ho-hum and blase about it. Don't bother me with it....already heard it, don't care for it. Let's go find something new and different.

I think Paul would have agreed it wasn't about "points" and acceptance, it was simply about spreading the truth of the gospel, and nothing could stop him or shut him up from doing that. Not prison, not stoning, not shipwreck, not even his brothers in Christ demanding an accounting of his teaching and his methods. (He was vindicated, BTW, with a few minor compromises to the sensibilities of Jewish Christians.)

But there were plenty of people who took offense at his message back then, too. He didn't care what they thought. He was nearly killed more than once. I guess we have it pretty easy.

That is why I didn't offer a lot of input, I've just been reading and keeping up. I was pretty sure I knew exactly how it was going to go

You sure did! Good point.

I find your attitude totally refreshing, and if it represented the attitude of all gay people and their supporters there'd be a whole lot less acrimony.

I've stayed out of replying to this thread for awhile, just because I don't want to get too heated. But I have to reply to this because it boggles my mind.

I understand you're religious and everything has to do with the Bible and God and all that stuff. But HOW can you say that homosexuality is a sin as much as murder? You're putting something as little (I know it might not be little to you) as having relations with/dating someone of the same sex with something as horrible and heinous as killing an innocent human being. You think God really thinks that homosexuality and murder are the same, in capacity of which is worse?

So basically what you're saying is Preach in people's faces, bomblast them with the interpretation of God's word that you and the members of your particular demonination or faith believe to be true, even though instead of bringing people to God, it turns them off? I can understand wanting to witness "The Good News" to those around you, but sometimes it's better to SHOW people the Good News by the way you act, and by the way you show love and understanding.

No, I don't mean you should condone Gay Marriage, but I think you should NOT go to a Gay function, and start ripping into them even if it is by standing there on the sidelines looking pious with the signs, about how all of those people in the parade are going to Hell, or how they should repent. Wait until their Parade is over to preach the message.

By the way, as this thread has gone on, I am now thinking a Civil Union (as long as it holds ALL of the rights and privileges as a marriage would be best). In fact I think very few people straight or gay should be having Religious Wedding Ceremonies. I think Civil Unions would be best for most of us.

Sin is sin. God doesn't specify a difference. If you steal something and you don't confess your sins before God and welcome him into your heart, you are no closer to heaven than a murder or rapist. Sorry, there's no "little" sins and "big" sins - we don't have choices about what wrong we do.

amen to that!!

i am a bit annoyed by what i'm finding that some of "our" supposed supporters are saying, hell some of it is downright frightening!


i wonder what they think they have to lose? or gain?

it's even more confusing to me than the attitudes of the religious right (or anyone left/right/center lol) who believe that we are evil.

So apparently, with what you are saying, since I have had sex before marriage and I have "sinned," that I am no closer to heaven than a rapist or a murderer? I find that VERY offensive. That I am no closer to heaven than someone who has killed an innocent human being. And no, I'm not gonna confess my "sin" before God because I don't feel like I have sinned. I believe in God, but I don't believe in some of the choices and values of the Bible. My boyfriend and I have been together for almost 4 years and living together for almost 2. I believe in God, and everything happens for a reason, but I don't believe in some of the values of the Bible.

I do believe that there are little sins and big sins. I don't believe God is gonna hold someone who has committed sex before marriage or homosexuality to the same standards as someone who has say, raped a young child or was a serial murderer. Those last two crimes are FAR MORE heinous and horrible than the first two. How can you say, that when there are 2 people in heaven, one a homosexual, and the other a serial murder who killed, say 10 people, that God is going to think they are equal in their sins.

God is hard at work....elsewhere! Creating new stars, new worlds. He has probably written this place off as a failed experiment and is working on our replacements even as we speak;

A stellar nursery...the birth of a new sun

Thanks for joining in the discussion. At this point, new voices are really appreciated.

We have no way of knowing exactly what God thinks. Of course, from our point of view, murder is much worse than homosexuality, because of the harm it does to another individual: it ends life, and life is the most precious thing we're given when we come into this world. But I think that from the point of view of getting square with God, a sin is a sin is a sin, and from that standpoint, immorality in the form of homosexuality is the same as hatred in the form of murder. Sins that harm just the sinner separate one from God just as surely as sins that harm another. You can refer back to my post many pages back in which I quoted the one scripture reference where homosexuality is referred to by name, and it's in the same list as greed and drunkeness, if I recall. The Bible is the only clue we've got to what God thinks, and if that's His word, He thinks it's a sin.

ETA - sorry for repeating basically what neet and Laureen already said. I responded to yam's post before reading the rest of the thread.

Yes, that's true, but some people have a preconceived notion of what that should be. Some people think Christians should show love and understanding by shutting up and turning the other cheek. Then when they do that, they get ridiculed for being weak and spineless, letting people walk all over them. You don't really know what a conflict that is. I think we have to remember that Jesus preached love because at that time the Jewish people were all hung up on following every little regulation of the Jewish law and He had to emphasize that's not the way back to God. They thought of God as the ultimate judge, jury and executioner. He had to teach them of God's love and forgiveness. He went meekly to His death because it was necessary to do it that way. When He comes back, it'll be the same way He left .... on the clouds .... but it surely won't be meekly.

Well, this story is apparently not true and complete propaganda. Aside from not finding any actual news articles of it, there does not appear to be any State in the Union that has Hate Laws applied to sexual orientation.

This is however, legislation being batted about to add sexual orientation to existing Hate Crime laws, but it's not going anywhere fast.

I have no idea of everyone's personal sins, the only one that does is God. And I never said anything directly to you to insult you, so don't go there, please.

Whether you confess them and ask him for forgiveness is between you and him. If you choose not to do that, it's between you and him. You'll find out how that works in the end.

Of course we have no way of knowing what God is exactly thinking. But I don't think the Bible is His word and its the only clue we have to what God thinks. I don't believe in the values of the Bible, and if that destines my fate when I get to heaven so be it. I believe God loves everybody no matter what sex, religion, race, or BELIEF equally. And I do believe that there are little and big sins in his eyes. I don't believe he's going to hold a serial murder and a homosexual to the same capacity, in terms of their sin. But that's MY opinion and MY belief system. I choose not to live my life by the Bible. But I still believe in God.

You didn't say anything directly to insult ME, but you did say that a sin is a sin. And that something so little as sex before marriage will be held to the same standards as a serial murderer or rapist. I haven't done anything wrong, in terms of MY belief system. I don't live my life in terms of the Bible. And if I find out how it works in the end, and I don't find myself in Heaven, so be it. They'll prob be a huge party in Hell anyways, because they're are a lot of people who have "sinned."

Stepping in to say my bit on the topic although i've kept away until now.

Basically the way I see it the main problem is not enough separation between the church and state.

There are two different things going on when people talk about marriage.

One is a civil and legal contract between two people. That gives them legal rights and marks them as being committed to sharing their material goods and building a live together.

The other is religious and is about two people confirming their relationship in front of their god (or gods), union of souls or handfasting or whatever depending on their flavour of religion.

I absolutely think that religions should be allowed to limit who they'll marry. If there's a branch of a church or a cult somewhere that doesn't want people who both have A's in their name or are red headed to marry that should be their right. Same if they don't want to allow interracial marriages or gay marriages or whatever.

However I also think that the legal contract that is a part of marriage should be open to everyone no matter what configuration of people. I even think it should be open to people who aren't in a relationship per se but have decided to build a live together and buy a house or raise children (I know of one pair of friends of mine who have decided to do just that, they're not gay but live together and just bought a house together because they find it too hard to live on their own and wouldn't be able to afford a house on their own either and they get along really well)

It is sort of that way in parts of Europe, basically the legal part of the marriage is set by people getting the right forms and signing them in front of witnesses. This signing can be a part of the formal ceremony or they can do it just before or after.

Basically no religion has the power to perform a 'legal' marriage. Everyone needs to get civil unioned as well so to speak. All religions have the power to perform their flavour of a marriage of course and for religions people that's the main thing and the legal things is just a side effect and formality while for people who aren't that religious or religious at all they often skip the religious ceremony and just do the signing of the contract bit.

Anyway that's my view on the issue.

I've been staying out of this too but it has gone on and on and now is all over the map as far as topics go so why not.......

In all honesty I have a a tinge of discomfort with gayness, and I chalk this up to my pagan view of the world, which is that Tab A has to fit into Slot B in order for the species to survive. but I personally have no problem with someone who is gay wanting to declare their willingness to 'love, honor and cherish' someone of the same sex in the same way as straight people have been doing for centuries before their friends and relatives and whatever GOD they worship, with all if the legal rights and privileges that go along with it. I have had and still have gay friends, some close and some not so close. One of my gay buddies made it clear to me years ago how difficult it was for him to have to keep his gayness a secret from everyone, even his own parents.

I am appalled that anyone or any religion would seriously put being gay as being a sin in the same class as rape or murder. This is one of the many reasons I reject Christianity. Not that there aren't many many decent people who give Christianity a good name. BUt there are many who don't, like the Catholic priests I would never dream of leaving a 15 year old boy alone with (which I would gladly do with many of my male gay friends). SoI'm having a hard time when someone pulls the 'Christian morality' trump card.

I call it "ramming your beliefs down my throat" and if Paul were alive today and were to preach at me I'd tell him to put a lid on it. I suppose hollering at people on the street is an improvement over the Spanish Inquisition. Like I said, I reject Christianity and I can do without the proslytizing that is institutionalized in some branches of it. I don't go around telling people NOT to be Christian, so why are these people in my face trying to convert me?

The last time I looked we still had a separation of Church and State and I think we should keep it that way. That means no fair invoking religious beliefs as a basis for law in the US. You can still do that in many Middle Eastern countries if that is how you prefer to enact laws. And if you want to discuss morality, well, I remember someone asking who felt they the suitable person to cast the first stone. It sure ain't me so I say live and let live.

But nobody's ramming anything down anyone's throat; nobody's throwing any stones. Nobody is forced to listen or read these posts. They can skip over them. We have a Constitutionally-protected right to free speech. Paul wouldn't put a lid on it today any more than he would have back then. And to refute the notion that Christians should be seen and not heard, this is what went on in the New Testament:

Acts 4:29 - enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. (Peter)

Acts 2:40 - with many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them. (Peter)

Acts 4:20 - For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard. (Peter)

Acts 9:28 - So Saul stayed with them and moved freely about Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of Christ.

Acts 17:17 - So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. (Paul)

Acts 18:9 - One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent."

Acts 19:29 - Soon the whole city was in an uproar. (Paul)

Acts 21:30,35 - The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions.......When Paul reached the steps, the violence of the mob was so great he had to be carried by the soldiers. Wherever Paul and the other apostles went, trouble ensued, because those who didn't want to hear the message thought he was trying to "ram it down their throats." So they agitated mobs to try to prevent him from speaking, run him out of town, and hopefully, kill him in the process. But he continued. And toward the end he was able to say:

Acts 23:1 - Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day."

while i personally hold to the belief that my life, lived according to the tenets of my faith, is my best witness... people who do fervently proselytize do so in according to Christ's commandment:
Matthew 28:19 (The Message)

18-20Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: "God authorized and commanded me to commission you: Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age."

As people who have stated that they don't follow the Bible are getting responses in the form of quotes from it, this thread has deteriorated to the point that it will now be