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California finally came to its senses  

post #1 of 531
5/15/08 at 10:24am
Thread Starter 
Now I wonder when the rest of the country will.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

(There are seriously no articles yet online, give it another couple minutes and it will be everywhere)
post #2 of 531
5/15/08 at 10:42am
I've gotten some news alerts, but am also waiting for a real article. Actually, I'm not surprised, as California has always been a trailblazer.
post #3 of 531
5/15/08 at 10:50am
Thread Starter 
Cnn just put up its take http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/15/sam...age/index.html

And for those who refuse to read anything but Fox
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355836,00.html
post #4 of 531
5/15/08 at 11:35am
Way to go California!!
post #5 of 531
5/15/08 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p View Post
Way to go California!!
It's about time....and I do agree that it's not surprising it was California, they seem to be so 'radical' in their thinking.
post #6 of 531
5/15/08 at 11:58am
So much for: "A country of the people, for the people and by the people."
post #7 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
So much for: "A country of the people, for the people and by the people."
Well, the way I understand it, the constitution is in place to keep states from passing laws that go against the basic rights of equality. So even if people of a state voted to have a law that discriminates based on religion, race, gender or sexual orientation, the law is unconstitutional.

So if you think each state should be able to pass any law they want, then you might as well discard the constitution.
post #8 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:13pm
I realize it is not politically correct to be against gay marriage but I have never been one to be politically correct and I AM against gay marriage.

I believe that man was made for woman and vice versa.

BUT, I also believe that Jesus loves everyone equally.
post #9 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I realize it is not politically correct to be against gay marriage but I have never been one to be politically correct and I AM against gay marriage.

I believe that man was made for woman and vice versa.

BUT, I also believe that Jesus loves everyone equally.
Well, I always say, if you're against gay marriage, don't have one.

I'm sure there are still people out there who are uncomfortable with interracial marriage, feeling that it's unnatural. But that doesn't give them the right to stop other people from having interracial marriages.

There are lots of loving gay couples out there who just want to get married and be a family. How does that affect you? I don't get it.
post #10 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:23pm
I don't believe interracial marriage and gay marriage are comparable.
post #11 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't believe interracial marriage and gay marriage are comparable.
I think the point being made was that we've come to finally accept interracial marriage after all these years when it was unacceptable by most and hopefully we will be able to accept gay marriages in the same way.

If two people love each other, I personally don't care what sex they are. If they are good, honest individuals who endeavour to live a good life, aren't hurting anyone, then IMO they have as much right to be happy together as any heterosexual couple. In fact I've met some homosexual couples that are much happier than many heterosexual couples I've been around.
post #12 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
If two people love each other, I personally don't care what sex they are. If they are good, honest individuals who endeavour to live a good life, aren't hurting anyone, then IMO they have as much right to be happy together as any heterosexual couple. In fact I've met some homosexual couples that are much happier than many heterosexual couples I've been around.
I feel the exact same way.
post #13 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
If two people love each other, I personally don't care what sex they are. If they are good, honest individuals who endeavour to live a good life, aren't hurting anyone, then IMO they have as much right to be happy together as any heterosexual couple. In fact I've met some homosexual couples that are much happier than many heterosexual couples I've been around.
Couldn't agree more.
post #14 of 531
5/15/08 at 12:59pm
I don't particularly care who gets married to whom. You can marry 20 people, for all I care. It's a legal contract for the government, and should be treated as such. Churches have always been free to decide who they will marry.

So, like the previous poster said, if you don't like gay marriage, don't enter into a gay marriage, and you'll be just fine.
post #15 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:01pm
Yeah for California!!!! The rest of the county NEEDS to follow suit!!
post #16 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:08pm
You all are free to have that opinion as I am free to have my opinon.
post #17 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't believe interracial marriage and gay marriage are comparable.
ckblv, the same arguments people are using against gay marriage are THE EXACT same arguments people made against racial marriage. Check out Loving v. Virginia. They are saying its "unnatural" and "against God", but those are the EXACT arguments the VA trial judge used in the Loving case. He said "Almighty God created the races.... He did not intend for the races to mix." to paraphrase. Thankfully the Supreme Court took up the case and outlawed any such bans.
post #18 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p View Post
Well, I always say, if you're against gay marriage, don't have one.

I'm sure there are still people out there who are uncomfortable with interracial marriage, feeling that it's unnatural. But that doesn't give them the right to stop other people from having interracial marriages.

There are lots of loving gay couples out there who just want to get married and be a family. How does that affect you? I don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I think the point being made was that we've come to finally accept interracial marriage after all these years when it was unacceptable by most and hopefully we will be able to accept gay marriages in the same way.

If two people love each other, I personally don't care what sex they are. If they are good, honest individuals who endeavour to live a good life, aren't hurting anyone, then IMO they have as much right to be happy together as any heterosexual couple. In fact I've met some homosexual couples that are much happier than many heterosexual couples I've been around.
I think the main criterion should really be, "Who is affected?" The couples themselves, that's who.

I always have to chuckle a bit when this topic comes up. My husband comes from a very strict, devout Catholic family, and his parents and their siblings were very much against gay relationships, as they considered them "sinful". That gradually changed after everybody's favorite nephew, whom our generation knew was gay, came out of the closet at a family funeral, and talked about the bureaucratic difficulties he and his S.O. were facing due to their different nationalities, residence permits, and the lack of legal protection of their relationship. I still remember some of the shocked faces.

Once a personal face was put on the lack of legal protection, the "older generation" started to come around.

This case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia is shocking to most of us today. Mildred Jeter Loving, who with her husband challenged Virginia's law against miscegnation, died in early May. May she RIP, as she really contributed to society's awareness of injustice.
post #19 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
You all are free to have that opinion as I am free to have my opinon.
Of course you are allowed to have your opinion. But even if in your opinion gay marriage is wrong, how does that give you the right to impose your opinion on others?
post #20 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p View Post
Of course you are allowed to have your opinion. But even if in your opinion gay marriage is wrong, how does that give you the right to impose your opinion on others?

In all fairness to ckblv, she is stating her opinion, not imposing it on anyone. And, as she said, she has as much right to her opinion and feelings against gay marriage as we do pro gay marriage. If she were the one making the laws against gay marriage, that would be imposing it on others.
post #21 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:37pm
It is there choice. Here is the link from Sfgate.
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NC5K.DTL&tsp=1)
post #22 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
In all fairness to ckblv, she is stating her opinion, not imposing it on anyone. And, as she said, she has as much right to her opinion and feelings against gay marriage as we do pro gay marriage. If she were the one making the laws against gay marriage, that would be imposing it on others.
Ok, I think I need to re-phrase what I said.

I know she is not trying to force me or anyone to be against gay marriage, but I think the whole "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" argument is... well... not an argument.

If she was saying that she prefers pea soup to chicken noodle soup, then she is entitled to her opinion without justifying it because it doesn't affect anyone but her.
If, on the other hand, she was saying that eating pea soup should be made into law (whether or not she is the one making the law), then she would need to justify WHY. The difference is, once you make statements about things that affect society as a whole, or at least someone else, I think you need to justify.

If she was saying that she doesn't want to marry another woman, that's fine. I don't care and she doesn't need to justify it. But if she is saying that I (or other people) should not be allowed to marry someone of the same sex, then she needs to explain WHY. Saying that it's her opinion isn't a reason.
post #23 of 531
5/15/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p View Post
Ok, I think I need to re-phrase what I said.

I know she is not trying to force me or anyone to be against gay marriage, but I think the whole "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" argument is... well... not an argument.

If she was saying that she prefers pea soup to chicken noodle soup, then she is entitled to her opinion without justifying it because it doesn't affect anyone but her.
If, on the other hand, she was saying that eating pea soup should be made into law (whether or not she is the one making the law), then she would need to justify WHY. The difference is, once you make statements about things that affect society as a whole, or at least someone else, I think you need to justify.

If she was saying that she doesn't want to marry another woman, that's fine. I don't care and she doesn't need to justify it. But if she is saying that I (or other people) should not be allowed to marry someone of the same sex, then she needs to explain WHY. Saying that it's her opinion isn't a reason.
Her opposition to gay marriage doesn't affect anyone but her so it is just her opinion. It really is just her opinion and her personal feelings on the subject.

but I think the whole "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" argument is... well... not an argument.

She's not arguing - she's just stating how she feels.

I don't think I could justify all my feelings (and yes, prejudices) since they are a product of my background and upbringing. That doesn't make me wrong or bad, just not as informed, open to new things or as progressive as perhaps some others.
post #24 of 531
5/15/08 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
So much for: "A country of the people, for the people and by the people."
Right now, at this time, I'm extremely proud of my State. I'm not gay, but I don't for the life of me understand why anyone would be against Same Sex Marriage. Are you scared that you might actually end up marrying someone of your same sex? How does it hurt ANYONE to allow Same Sex Marriage? How do you think it's going to hurt or affect your life in any way, if you're heterosexual? I think every adult should have the right to marry whomever they choose to marry, if they're in love. Personally, I don't think we have the RIGHT to tell people who they can or cannot marry.

Also, if this is a Country for the People, By the People....then it's about time the gay people had a say so..isn't it? They're also a part of this Country.
post #25 of 531
5/15/08 at 2:06pm
Finally!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
So much for: "A country of the people, for the people and by the people."
Gays are people too.
post #26 of 531
5/15/08 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
Her opposition to gay marriage doesn't affect anyone but her so it is just her opinion. It really is just her opinion and her personal feelings on the subject.

but I think the whole "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it" argument is... well... not an argument.

She's not arguing - she's just stating how she feels.

I don't think I could justify all my feelings (and yes, prejudices) since they are a product of my background and upbringing. That doesn't make me wrong or bad, just not as informed, open to new things or as progressive as perhaps some others.
The way I see it, if we live in a relatively democratic society where people's opinions are meant to be heard (whether or not they are is another question), then I think we need to be responsible about our opinions regarding social matters and question their justifications.

It's normal for people to have feelings and prejudices but if they want to have a say in shaping society, they should be able to question them and look at whether they are justified or not.
For example, many people get a gut reaction of fear when they meet a young black man because of their upbringing and the media. But in regards to opinions regarding social relations, they should not say that they want black people out of their neighborhood because that's their opinions. They should ask themselves WHY they have this gut reaction and whether or not it justifies kicking black people out of the neighborhood.

The ban on gay marriage was there in big part because people had strong opinions against gay marriage... so people's opinions do have an impact. Anything that has an impact on others should be treated responsibly.
post #27 of 531
5/15/08 at 2:32pm
Honestly, all that worrying people does about the lack of marriages nowadays, you'd think they would be thrilled to have a chance to boost the numbers!

Even if the opposition groups do manage to overturn this, its a sign that the times really are changing, and within 10 years I bet gay marriage will be allowed throughout America. And about time too.
post #28 of 531
5/15/08 at 5:03pm
i think we need to stop calling the contract 'marriage' in the legal sense - for all couples. everyone [gay, straight, whatever] should have a domestic partnership, as far as the government, insurance, etc. are concerned.
Christians, Muslims, Jews, & other faiths could then opt to also have a religious ceremony. this would be a more true representation of the separation of church & state, IMO.
many religious beliefs consider same sex relationships sinful. while we all sin, the idea is to atone for the sin & vow to abstain from it in future. this is not possible if one plans to continue a sinful relationship.
in order to truly understand the deep discomfort some of us have with such a legal recognition - equate it w/something other than interracial marriage [which is most definitely NOT forbidden by the Bible as same sex relationships are]. instead, equate it w/another relationship that our current mores consider verboten: incestual ones.
Abraham & Sarah [founders of the Jewish faith] were siblings. there are many relationships in the Bible where the participants were familially related, as well as being married [or the equivalent]. compare it to polygamy - another frequent appearer in the Old Testament.
would legislation recognizing those types of relationships as legal be as palatable to you as this one?
post #29 of 531
5/15/08 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Now I wonder when the rest of the country will.

we can only hope never.
.
post #30 of 531
5/15/08 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
we can only hope never.
.
Why?

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