Originally Posted by Cocoalily
Would you consider it cruel if it was used as a tool - not how he's using it? After reading everyone's replies I can see how he sometimes handles thing wrongly, cruelly, however you'd like to say it. However, I'm going to disagree and say that it's not cruel in all cases. When I'm walking Shaggy it's not choking him - it's never tight enough to, and while I may tug at it, I would never pull it tight enough to choke him. I won't say they're right for every situation, but when they're used as a tool instead of a punishment it wouldn't be considered cruel.
No - certainly not. I mean, they were developed as a tool, as you say. And used properly they can be effective - I don't deny that and they wouldn't have been around for as long as they have if they weren't. But the problem is, many people are NOT going to use them properly - I see it all the time - and many people are not going to understand how they are supposed to be used. There is too much room for abuse and misunderstanding and that is one of the reasons they should not be used at all.
Plus, just generally, it's not nice or kind to jerk on or pull at a dog's neck. They have delicate necks and throats as we do, and there are several alternatives to choke collars - I mean, even their name! CHOKE collars. Not very nice, don't you think? They were developed with one thing and one thing in mind only - to choke the dog if it pulls. That is fundamentally cruel - even if they can be used in a gentle way. There are other methods, and other tools. Choke collars need not be used at all.
|I'll agree with you on the fact that the situations he practices his techniques in are not what the usual dog is and most should not be practiced on the average dog. However, I won't say he's wrong in everything he does.
He isn't. He has some good ideas such as exercise, discipline etc. It's just that his fundamental understanding is flawed. He has worked with many thousands of dogs and that has given him an affinity that I do not deny. But many of his methods are outdated, cruel and misinformed - and that makes his whole
approach dangerous, even if a small part of it isn't.
And the fact that he has worked with many thousands of dogs actually means that the `usual dog' as you say, IS his subject more often than not.
|I was expecting controversy, I just wasn't expecting five pages of debating. Maybe a few replies, but not this much. Regardless, I do feel like this thread has been worth something - though I'm not going to completely shun his methods for doing what he's doing, I have seen things in a new light since people have been replying. Like stated earlier, there're some good ideas, some bad - they change depending on the situation.
2dogmom - perfectly illustrates this thread - thanks for sharing it. I'd also like to thank everyone who's shed some light on Cesar Milan's methods. There's no way possible that everyone it going to agree on a certain opinion, idea, or method, but it was interesting to hear what everyone's thoughts were.
And that's where you're absolutely right and this thread is a very important one. Nobody is ever going to agree but there is a vast majority consensus that Millan is not a good trainer and that his methods should not be followed. If you are discerning enough to take what you can from his and other people's methods to develop what works for you and your dogs, then that's wonderful, and that's what many people do. But I would prefer to see that people didn't try to emulate him at all
, because his attitudes towards aggression and dominance are very wrong, and if people try to follow him and don't do it with as much experience as he has (which happens all the time) it's a disaster waiting to happen.
No trainer expects every dog owner to have as much understanding and experience as we do - otherwise they'd all be trainers, wouldn't they!
And so we try to teach people in a way that makes sense to them, in a way that they will understand and can emulate safely. I don't think this can happen with Millan's followers because he doesn't get it right, either - so how can people who try to copy him? I have to be honest, watching his show really makes me feel so anxious and sad and angry. It scares me that people think he knows what he's doing.
Positive and gentle methods of training have been consistently proven to work - over and over and over - even with very aggressive dogs. There's just no need to treat them the way he does.