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The War Discussion - Page 6

post #151 of 271
Not to sound negative but Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan told reporters in Baghdad that coalition forces are being allowed to move north from Kuwait uncontested, but he said U.S. led forces will face certain defeat once they approach Baghdad.

Why does that give me the creeps?
post #152 of 271
because it sounds like a set up
post #153 of 271
Thread Starter 
What the Iraqis will do when we get to Baghdad scares the cr@p out of me, too. That's their last stand, and they know it. I have no doubt that they aren't smart enough or care enough about their own people to surrender. They will try to inflict as many casualties as possible, with whatever means they have. I think that's when we'll see those WMD come out.
post #154 of 271
I am a Democrat, the daughter of a man who spent twenty years in the military, fought in a world war and the sister of a navy veteran, who served in the Pacific during the last war. I am one of the few people who are willing to stand up for those who love this country, but are unsure about this recent decision to start a war. There are usually two sides in a discussion, and most of you are being quite respectful of each other, but I personally take exception to the insinuation that liberals are cowards or unpatriotic. Noone on the opposite side is calling conservatives warmongers. This is a respectful discussion among Americans and their friends. Noone should be afraid to post her beliefs.

There were draft dodgers from all political parties during the Vietnam War. They went to college if they could afford it, or left for Canada. That does not excuse the people who did not give the veterans the honor due them, but not all of those people were liberals. If you remember correctly, it was a Democrat who escalated that conflict, and a Republican who evacuated our troops. (Johnson, who added fighting men to the advisors already there, and Nixon with his "secret plan" to end the war, the withdrawal of our men.)

God bless our troops and keep them safe.
post #155 of 271
Originally posted by kimward34
I wish that we would go ahead and LEVEL Bagdad!!!!!!!

This statement really scares me. Kim, I hope this was stated out of emotional strain and anger of the moment. Otherwise, it is a sad day if one truly believes this. It's sad when citizens of one country only get in an emotional uproar when their soldiers get hit. Then, when it happens it's off with all their heads. It scares me when I read words like that. I'm not trying to pick on you, just trying to highlight this specific statement. This kind of statement always rears its head from someone sooner or later during the wars.

There are so many wars and so many innocent people getting hurt in current day and throughout history. It makes you wonder why we don't turn our emotional compassion towards the world's people rather than only when it directly concerns the country in which we live. It's horrible when it's us vs them and so many boundaries are drawn in the sand.

We would be in such a different place today if people stopped looking at border lines and looked at showing individual human compassion for individual lives.

I am saddened by all casualties and get very disturbed when all people of a certain citizenship are pointed out and targeted. After Sept. 11, it seemed your skin colour determined if you were an enemy or not. It's hearbreaking to know that racial acts like September 11 are happening all over again here in North America because of the current battle over in Iraq.

It just amazes me when the US or other countries go to war and we get tied into how many US or British soldiers are killed rather than how many lives has the world lost today. When death strikes, it doesn't matter where the person was born. Since there will be a brother, son, father, mother, or sister grieving the same as you would for your own.

Not meant to offend or anger, just another view. I usually stay out of here, but this statement really got me.
post #156 of 271
I recently wrote my father who is a veteran of a few wars and asked him his views about this.

he sent me the following:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
--Dwight Eisenhower 1953 speech
post #157 of 271
This statement really scares me. Kim, I hope this was stated out of emotional strain and anger of the moment. Otherwise, it is a sad day if one truly believes this. It's sad when citizens of one country only get in an emotional uproar when their soldiers get hit. Then, when it happens it's off with all their heads. It scares me when I read words like that. I'm not trying to pick on you, just trying to highlight this specific statement. This kind of statement always rears its head from someone sooner or later during the wars.
Yeah...I admit it. I got caught up in another American privilege, Freedom of Expression…I made that remark in the heat of anger. Sorry to offend you.

I posted that remark when I found out our soldiers were assassinated by the Iraqi Animals—carefully recorded on film, then displayed on the floor like a prize pig. When they aired the footage on TV, I was pretty ticked. Here we are treating their POW's with decency..... and our men are slaughtered?

It still ticks me off....can't say I am ready to retract the remark yet.

Not to worry, though, it's out of character for me to throw or break objects in the heat of anger.

post #158 of 271
Just a thought here- if the media had been allowed in during WWII (I know this is hypothetical) and if they had filmed the entire horror there- do you think war would of been eradicated just from the sheer horror of it all?
post #159 of 271
Originally posted by kimward34
I wish that we would go ahead and LEVEL Bagdad!!!!!!!

If you ask me, there is nothing wrong with this statement. Answer this one: why was/is it ok for innocentAmerican civilians to die in our country (for example, Sept 11th), yet its NOT ok for innocent people to die in other countries, such as Iraq????? I am sure there are some people out there who would agree that it would be fine to go level Bagdad .... It happend during WWII when we dropped the atomic bomb over in Japan.......

Sorry, but I felt I had to comment on that one .......
post #160 of 271
I think we should go ahead and level Bagdad also. You have a madman running the country (or one of a dozen body doubles), an army of men who don't really know how they believe (most are scared to have an opinion), and they are engaged in their own underhanded brand of warfare. Why does it matter if the UN sanctioned the war, when they can't even follow the Geneva Convention. Whether you feel that the US should be there or not, we are and they need to deal with us in a dignified and fair manner.Of course there is nothing dignified or fair about Saddam Huessin( or is that In-sane). Sorry just rambling.
post #161 of 271
It is never ok for innocents to die. But in war it is inevitable.
post #162 of 271
I get the feeling that some big-time, nasty stuff is waiting, for our troops, when they get to Baghdad. With exception of Nasirya, we've made too much progress, too easily.

As for that soldier, in Kuwait - he is a Black Muslim. He should not have been in that unit or deployed, in the first place. He had already been disciplined for insubordination, prior to deployment.

There are some very fine, loyal American Muslims, in the US armed forces but this guy should have raised red flags, months ago.

We have local young man, 24 years old, whose family escaped Iraq after the last war. He very proud to be a Marine and I, for one, am proud that he is one! He says that he's "paying back what he owes." Granted, he is sorry to see his home country in the midst of a war but he is doing something to make it a better place.
post #163 of 271
one of the commanders from the Pennsylvania camp was reporting about the incident Cindy and he was fighting back tears while trying to do so. I felt so sorry for him. And I agree with you, I think the hell that we have witnessed is just the beginning of what is waiting for them when they get to Baghdad. One of my clients just wrote me an email and he said:

"I cannot step away from the television, no matter how hard I try. I have turned the computer desk so that I can face the tv and as hard as it is to watch, it seems imperative to me to see it all. I wonder if secretly I am a ghoul, but I know deep down I am just immersed inside the horror of the lost."
post #164 of 271
I believe that Iraqi TV has announced that it was Saddam Hussein's plan to allow the British and Americans to enter the country rather easily, and fight them in Baghdad. They could be blowing smoke, but I'm sure this won't be easy. Perhaps they want to lull us into a false sense of security.
post #165 of 271
Saddam pulled the best of his troops, back to Baghdad and it was reported, before the war started, that he had issued them chem/bio weapons. But then, he doesn't have any of those - right?
post #166 of 271
Baghdad TV reports whatever it wants. How convenient that we rolled into the country so easily! If it was their plan at what cost? Civilians, buildings, palaces, military personnel.:confused2
post #167 of 271
Perhaps they want to lull us into a false sense of security.
Our military lulled? Ya think?
post #168 of 271
Since the Pentagon has access to a LOT more information, than we do I'm sure that they are prepared, for almost any contingency. There's no way to cover ALL of the base but I'm sure they're doing everything possible, to contain the situation.

I'm concerned that Saddam has one big, dirty nuke stashed away and will try to go out, in a blaze of glory and take as many people as he can with him. We know that he doesn't give a hoot, about his own.
post #169 of 271
But don't you think our technology would detetect a nasty bomb like that? Just wondering.
post #170 of 271
I have been moving, so I have just caught up reading this thread. I am very proud of all of us for staying so civil, and very much enjoyed the input from our new Israeli friend. Welcome, nunny, I hope you and yours continue to be safe.
I just spent the day with several dozen Marines about to be deployed to Kuwait. They are proud and anxious to serve. God bless'em. Some of "our guys" from Camp Lejuene are among the ones processing and caring for the captured and surrendered POWs. They are very weak, starving, and seem to see it more as being in the care of the USA, rather than being imprisoned. The big buzz was the captured American maintenance division. 4 have been executed, and they are not clear on exactly how many they actually captured. There was a woman among them, and she was still alive, but severely beaten and forced to walk barefooted. as much as I don't want to see anyone die, if she is lucky, they will kill her. The guys I spoke to seem to think they will torture her in front of the remaining men, hoping to get information. This is not a combat unit, that is how she got there.
I noticed that there was some discussion about the journalists over there with the troops. The ones they are referring to as "embedded" with a certain group, had to pass a rigorous physical test to be able to do that, because they were told by the military that they could not be bothered to protect them. I admire these folks greatly for puting themselves in harm's way so the rest of us can know what is happening, disturbing as it is.
It was so hard to be among those young men today, watching the news, and knowing these same kids that got proudly got their Marine Corps tattoos today will be the ones fighting next week. I sat in the back and cried like a baby after about 3 hours of it. I was glad to see the race come on. At least I didn't have to print up any meat tags. I don't think I could have done it.
post #171 of 271
Originally posted by kimward34
But don't you think our technology would detetect a nasty bomb like that? Just wondering.
Not necessarily. He's been hiding stuff, for 12 years.
post #172 of 271
krazykat thank you for what you just offered.

They just reported that Russian Intelligence was selling to the Iraq's some of the equipment that could be used to the detriment of the coalition troops. night vision goggles GPS jamming systems and anti-tank artillery shells

There is just so much information about so many grim topics it is hard to assimilate it all.

I did hear on the news tonight that Michael Moore got an Oscar and got up for his *speech* and started slamming Bush- and by golly the Hollywood crowd booed him!
post #173 of 271
It seems that Saddam is still alive. I have to say that i am dissapointed. I fear the worst is yet to come.
post #174 of 271
Some Marines were attacked, while taking a surrender. The Iraqis were under a white flag and turned on the Marines. Its probably good that I'm not a military commander - I'd issue a "shoot on sight" order.

Other Iraqis are operating without uniforms and driving non-military vehicles. Saddam has blown his nose on the Geneva convention.

It has been noted that the Defense Ministry, in Baghdad, is not being targeted. Senior defense ministers are negotiating surrender terms. In addition, CIA, Special Ops and Iraqi resistance are carrying out sabotage, in Baghdad.

I still believe that Saddam has something big waiting for us, when we get to Baghdad. We can only hope that our commanders are farsighted enough and have the intelligence, to be ready for it. This is not the time to get overconfident.
post #175 of 271
Has anyone heard about the fate of the crew of the apache helicopter? I saw on the news they have an intact one, but haven't heard about the crew aboard?

They say they found a plant in the middle of the desert and were it not for the fence around it they say it blended with the desert perfectly. It is booby trapped and they believe it to be a chemical weapons plant but so far cannot get inside.
post #176 of 271
I just got back .... I've missed out on some things.

I haven't heard anything new about the Apaches. Just that Sahhaf said the POWs would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions.... I sure hope so.

I wonder if Sahhaf said that before or after the Iraqi Soldiers danced around our aircraft with their automatic rifles? I bet they bust out laughing everytime the words "Geneva Convention" are said.

I thought we were supposed to blow up our "Downed" aircrafts?

What's the scoop on the 4 new explosions in Bagdad this morning? Were those Tomahawks?

post #177 of 271
My tv has been glued to MSNBC for five days now, but I am not "up" on the morning news. I had a guest all morning. I did want to comment on a couple of posts. Last night, I watched the Academy Awards, as I said I would. I needed a break! (But today MSNBC is glued in place again.) One person gave a peace sign when going up for an award, a young man from Mexico said something about peace, Michael Moore did make his remarks, but the thousands in the audience whistled and otherwise made it known that this was the wrong time and place. At the end of the awards, Steve Martin made a remark which was, more or less, a dedication to our troops. There was decorum at the awards, and I'm glad to have had the break.

Kim, you asked if I thought we be could be lulled into a false sense of security. Can our troops be lulled? I think we were, but that we now know better. Up until yesterday, the official story said we were way ahead of schedule, and 72 hours would tell the tale. Since then, Iraqi tv has announced the plan to lure our troops to Baghdad. Our troops also believed that the civilians would consider us as liberators, and have discovered that they were capable of deceit. Our military is the best in the world, but it is not infallible.

About flattening Baghdad? We might kill Hussein, but that's questionable. We would certainly kill the women, children, elderly, animals, and many men. We would most certainly be considered by our former friends in the world as monstrous as the monster we're trying to oust.
post #178 of 271
I'm more concerned that Saddam will flatten Baghdad, himself. He has already flouted the Genenva Convention, by torturing and parading POWs and having his soldiers operate out of uniform. Why would he stop at killing his own people and blaming us?
post #179 of 271
Thread Starter 
Saddam just doesn't play by the same rules we do. He sees nothing wrong with ambushing the enemy under the guise of surrender or soldiers dressed as civilians. He has no problem with using civlians as human shields, in places where we would least suspect them, and then flouting the number of innocent people "we" killed. I have no doubt he is capable of anything.

Hubby just told me that the Academy Awards had the lowest ratings in the history of the show. I think the people have spoken, and I am glad they were listened to by the stars themselves. I'm glad they boo'ed Michael Moore, it wasn't the place for him to spout his radical views. Thank you for telling us how civilized the others were as well, Jeanie. I'm glad they showed some decorum.
post #180 of 271
Not only did the stars whistle and make low, mumbling sounds, they looked completely disgusted, but Moore tried to out yell the music and the audience. I don't think those who were there came to make statements. They have every right to express their opinions, of course, but I don't think they had any intentions of making the Academy Awards a political soap box.
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