Turtles....

arlyn · Apr 20, 2008

I'll be taking lots of little treks through the desert, hopefully I'll get out there before it gets too hot so I can get pictures of the Mojave desert tortoises before they dig in to wait out the heat.

I know Strange Wings will enjoy pics of the reptiles out here in their wild state.

I hope to get pics of tortoises, gila monsters and desert iguanas as well as native tarantulas and snakes.

strange_wings · Apr 20, 2008

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Well you should have told our box turtles they were vegeterians - cause they ate far more meat then veggies. They liked tomatoes and grapes, but would not eat any kind of lettuce or plant material in the garden. The only plants I ever saw them eat was the dandilion flowers - not the leaves. They survived many many years.

They tend to do that when you indulge them - a bit like children and junk food, but everyone knows cookies aren't a primary diet for kids.

(My cats would also rather eat my dinner then their own... not happening.)

Mine eat lots of veggies, even my babies. I do not give them the choice. They eat the veggies I serve or they have to settle with what they catch for themselves that day. I won't have my babies getting grossly deformed shells due to improper diet. Turnip greens, shepard's purse, and dandelion greens are always favorites. I use red and yellow bell pepers and brightly colored squashes to attract them - too much fruit isn't a good idea as it's higher in sugars and isn't something they would find in large amounts in the wild.

My adult male munching on his veggies

My babies when they were inside the winter before last, most people don't have luck getting them to eat veggies in the first year.

________
It's possible, even with aquatics - the delivery just gets a bit... messier. Because you're wanting to get hatchlings you really must do right with diet and supplementing. The gelatin recipe does work if you're willing to make up veggie gelatin - just imagine if company comes over and sees that in the fridge.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Read on the diet part on the box turtles - they are more meat eaters then plant eaters!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_turtle

"During their first five to six years, the young are primarily carnivorous while they grow. Adults tend to be mostly herbivorous"
Wikipedia shouldn't be one's only source of information for anything as info can be posted by anyone - often incorrect or bias in some cases. Some of the links claimed as references are alright. I like some of the basic info this one gives http://www.ornatebirdgarden.com/html/turtleaspet.html -a lot of good before getting any type of turtle.

goldenkitty45 · Apr 21, 2008

Well its not like we didn't try to give them veggies - we did; they didn't eat them. They would walk away. Maybe I just had weird box turtles

And mine were NOT babies - they were all full grown adults who did not eat veggies!

vixen16 · Apr 21, 2008

UPDATE:
So I was a lil unsure about the Pet Store I had chosen to get my Turtle at as they order the Turtle when you pay.. which means I cant se it first and choose the healthiest most active one... and im more likely to end up with a sick one cuz I have no clue where he gets his turtles from and theres a no refund policy. So even though I said I had chosen that one ive actually been calling several other Pet Shops in OH also.

If I hadnt found a Pet Store ((besides the one that orders the turtles)) I was gonna put an add in CL next week to se if anyone was rehoming a turtle... Well I found my pet store today! lol Umm its located in Youngstown OH which is quite a drive from where im at but for some reason my mom doesnt mind. They have RES and they have them right at the store so I can se them before I purchase it!!
I really wanted either a Peninsula Cooter or a Rio Grande Slider but I guess they dont have them here.

------------------------------------------------------

On other note.. I thought id share with you my moms story of saving a Turtle Yesterday! lol

So shes driving down a busy road when she spots a Turtle in the middle of the road... she pulls over and runs as fast as she can to get to it before an oncoming car.. she won. The car goes around her.. as do all the other cars and tractors.. shes then nudges the turtle with her foot a lil to se if he'd try to eat her or just stay in his shell.. he stayed in his shell.
She picks him up to move him and as soon as hes off the ground he comes out of his shell.. stretched his neck as far as he could and started snapping at her hands!!! FL turtles are way friendlier than here!!

so while shes moving him off the road shes also trying to avoid getting bit!!
She also mentioned that it was ugly, scary, prehistoric looking, oval in shape and smelled really bad!

New Lesson For Today: Do NOT mess with Pennsylvanian Turtles!!!

EDIT:
Where thinking the Turtle in the road was a Musk Turtle (aka Stinkpot Turtle)

strange_wings · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by Vixen16

She also mentioned that it was ugly, scary, prehistoric looking, oval in shape and smelled really bad!

Without a better description I'd say it was a snapping turtle or maybe even a musk turtle.
Show her this picture and ask if it resembled it at all http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/snapper2.jpg

GoldenKitty - You mentioned some of your box turtles didn't make it out of hibernation when you had them in the past? Sadly one of the main reasons for this is because due to not eating properly and getting enough good fat built up to last the winter.

The other two reasons are pen problems - flooding, too moist, can't dig deep enough in that area/not properly set up for wintering and weren't healthy enough to hibernate.

abbycats · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Well its not like we didn't try to give them veggies - we did; they didn't eat them. They would walk away. Maybe I just had weird box turtles

And mine were NOT babies - they were all full grown adults who did not eat veggies!

Mine don't like veggies either. They like worms, grapes and strawberries and grasshoppers. I rescued these 2 crossing a busy street last summer. When they come out of hybernation we are talking about setting them free.

vixen16 · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Without a better description I'd say it was a snapping turtle or maybe even a musk turtle.
Show her this picture and ask if it resembled it at all http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/snapper2.jpg

Well I did show her a couple pictures of Musk Turtles and she said it looked most like this one: http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d.../MudTurtle.jpg
but much larger.

We're from FL and we were almost always moving Turtles off main roads... Mostly Gopher Turtles but also the occasional FL Snapping Turtle and/or Soft Shell Snapping Turtle and they were never that mean or smelly... so were kinda sure it wasnt a Snapper.

strange_wings · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by abbycats

Mine don't like veggies either. They like worms, grapes and strawberries and grasshoppers. I rescued these 2 crossing a busy street last summer. When they come out of hybernation we are talking about setting them free.

As I've been saying, like has nothing to do with it. Dietary requirements do. A few wise keepers and breeders have made omelette treats with chopped up veggies in them, add some red bell peppers for a bright attractive color and I doubt any turtle could resist. I chop all my veggies finely and mix fruit in - cut small as well. It makes it harder for them to pick it out.

I'm sure they hate my scheming ways to make them eat well!

If you decide to release them, they need to go back to the area you found them. Turtles have home ranges (actually most animals do), when relocated out of it they face starvation, dehydration, and predation as they won't know safe places to hide/nest. They managed that area for the last 6-30 years (maybe more) just fine.
I hope they come out of hibernation safe and sound. Make sure to give them a nice soak so they can rehydrate after the long winter.

Wild mud turtles are icky.

Wild muds, musks, and snappers always smell like something rotten. That beauty in the picture I linked to sure had an odor.

Vixen, have you been able to find all the proper lights, fixtures, and thermometers you need? If you have problems getting supplies and supplements at your local pet stores, or just want to save a little money, you can try this online store http://www.reptilesupply.com/
I have bought bulbs and other items from them a few times, no problems at all and had very quick processing + shipping. Some people have complained about their orders being slower to process, though.

...Check your state laws before messing with any wild life. Texas now has a law that if you so much as get out of your car to move a turtle they can fine you with hunting on public land.

In Arlyn's case, species like gila monsters and tortoises have strict protection in some states. You can actually get in trouble for "molesting" them just by being close enough to photograph - without proper permits. I'll look forward to those pictures, but please don't get yourself in trouble!

arlyn · Apr 21, 2008

Don't worry, I won't be trekking off the public paths, too many dangerous snakes

Telephoto is pretty decent on my camera.
Besides, I'd feel horrible if I caused a tortoise to dump his bladder in defense and possibly dehydrate itself.

vixen16 · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by strange_wings

Vixen, have you been able to find all the proper lights, fixtures, and thermometers you need? If you have problems getting supplies and supplements at your local pet stores, or just want to save a little money, you can try this online store http://www.reptilesupply.com/
I have bought bulbs and other items from them a few times, no problems at all and had very quick processing + shipping. Some people have complained about their orders being slower to process, though.

Actually I am having trouble finding the proper Lighting for Basking (light bulbs and clamp lamp)... im kinda confused at what it all means so we were gonna go to the Pet Store and ask them... unless you know somethin better and cheaper... we are trying to keep the prices on the low while getting the correct stuff.

The filter I have in mind for now ((at least till we get a larger Tank which ill buy a bigger better filter then)) is the Rapids Mini Canister Filter for Terrariums.
And the Water Heater im buying is the Visi-Therm Deluxe Heater.

abbycats · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by strange_wings

As I've been saying, like has nothing to do with it. Dietary requirements do. A few wise keepers and breeders have made omelette treats with chopped up veggies in them, add some red bell peppers for a bright attractive color and I doubt any turtle could resist. I chop all my veggies finely and mix fruit in - cut small as well. It makes it harder for them to pick it out.

I'm sure they hate my scheming ways to make them eat well!

If you decide to release them, they need to go back to the area you found them. Turtles have home ranges (actually most animals do), when relocated out of it they face starvation, dehydration, and predation as they won't know safe places to hide/nest. They managed that area for the last 6-30 years (maybe more) just fine.
I hope they come out of hibernation safe and sound. Make sure to give them a nice soak so they can rehydrate after the long winter.

Wild mud turtles are icky.

Wild muds, musks, and snappers always smell like something rotten. That beauty in the picture I linked to sure had an odor.

Vixen, have you been able to find all the proper lights, fixtures, and thermometers you need? If you have problems getting supplies and supplements at your local pet stores, or just want to save a little money, you can try this online store http://www.reptilesupply.com/
I have bought bulbs and other items from them a few times, no problems at all and had very quick processing + shipping. Some people have complained about their orders being slower to process, though.

...Check your state laws before messing with any wild life. Texas now has a law that if you so much as get out of your car to move a turtle they can fine you with hunting on public land.

In Arlyn's case, species like gila monsters and tortoises have strict protection in some states. You can actually get in trouble for "molesting" them just by being close enough to photograph - without proper permits. I'll look forward to those pictures, but please don't get yourself in trouble!

You have so much good information that I could learn so much from. Maybe I will work with these turtles. I have 1 male and 1 female. The female is really a nice turtle! I really like her. She is a happy turtle

I did bookmark your sites that you posted for Box turtles. I will have lots of questions for you!!

I'm glad I popped into this discussion.

strange_wings · Apr 21, 2008

Vixen - Turtles are very very dirty creatures. They eat, they poop, they spend a lot of time in the water. Because of this you have to either get a filter made for a turtle or get one for double the amount of water you intend to put through it. 20 gal water = 40 gal rated filter.

Cheapest way to do the lights since you are only using a 20 gal for now is to get a large enough fixture to hold your fluorescent bulb. A 20 gal is what, 24" long? (I only have 29s and 30s) To cover that and be able to reuse it when you upgrade tank sizes I would suggest no smaller than an 18" bulb. The common brands are exo terra and zoomed. Exo terra makes higher percentage bulbs (7%, 8%, 10% UVB output) but because your turtle(s) will be sitting close -ie less than a foot away from the light fixtures and bulbs you can probably use a 5% by either brand.
Prices for the hood tube fixtures range around $25-$45 for 18"-24" type sizes. Or at least they should if your pet shop isn't over priced. UVB fluorescent tube should be around $20 for an 18".

For heat lighting, you can use a normal incandescent house hold bulb. Since you have a 20gal you may only want to use a 40watt. I think the bulb type is called A19? (fixture name?). You will check on the clip lamp to see if it is rated for this - most are that size. Exo terra makes a clip lamp with a built in dimmer, zoomed does as well but despite saying it was for A19 size bulbs they don't fit.

Lamp should cost $10-$15. You can turn them off in the evening. If your house get very cold during the winter you will need to use a red heat bulb.

An easy way to make sure the lights are on 12-14 hours at the same time everyday is to check a hardware store or walmart for a cheap appliance timer. $5-$10

If you have problems getting a digital thermometer with a probe for putting on the basking spot you can check hardware stores and walmart. These may vary in price from $12-35, depending on how fancy you get. This is important - if the basking spot is too hot your turtle won't use it and may stop eating.
For the water you can use an aquarium thermometer if it has the 60-80s range. Don't use the silly stick on thermometers, the glass temp is completely useless to you.

Also, as I've been going on and on about diet. You can't feed pellets everyday. They're more like a couple times a week meal, with 2-3 veggie days, an insect day, and a day of no food. You don't need to feed the turtle a lot with it's little, meals should be about the size of it's head and what it can eat within about 10-15 minutes. An obese turtle isn't a happy turtle and can have serious health problems along with even swimming problems.

Too much info? (again?)

Originally Posted by abbycats

You have so much good information that I could learn so much from. Maybe I will work with these turtles. I have 1 male and 1 female. The female is really a nice turtle! I really like her. She is a happy turtle

I did bookmark your sites that you posted for Box turtles. I will have lots of questions for you!!

I'm glad I popped into this discussion.

I hope all of this can be helpful to you.

What kind did you say you have again? And do know, if you get the setup right and provide them with even the basics they will start breeding. Be prepared for babies even if you do not collect eggs for indoor incubation. I had an oops clutch over winter outside, boy was that a surprise in spring.

Check your state laws concerning limits. One oops clutch and you could have passed the legal limit (though I fail to see how it's any of their business, that would be captive breed and not wild caught

).
The same to Vixen, if you get a boy and girl and do everything right... in a few years eggs may be an issue.

abbycats · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by strange_wings

I hope all of this can be helpful to you.

What kind did you say you have again? And do know, if you get the setup right and provide them with even the basics they will start breeding. Be prepared for babies even if you do not collect eggs for indoor incubation. I had an oops clutch over winter outside, boy was that a surprise in spring.

Check your state laws concerning limits. One oops clutch and you could have passed the legal limit (though I fail to see how it's any of their business, that would be captive breed and not wild caught

).
The same to Vixen, if you get a boy and girl and do everything right... in a few years eggs may be an issue.

I have 2 Box turtles. What do I need to do for their outdoor enclosure. The last turtle we had was in an outdoor enclosure in our garden and she dug under the wood that was surrounding it and ran away from home.

The turtles we have now are in the house hybernating.

strange_wings · Apr 21, 2008

Originally Posted by abbycats

I have 2 Box turtles. What do I need to do for their outdoor enclosure. The last turtle we had was in an outdoor enclosure in our garden and she dug under the wood that was surrounding it and ran away from home.

The turtles we have now are in the house hybernating.

That depends on how you want your pen to look and what your local animals are - raccoons, dogs, neighboring children.

Some people use concrete blocks, some use plywood -painted, I've used picket fence panels on one of my pens.
You need to have the walls buried 2 feet down or have the pen bottom lined with chicken wire. I prefer burying the pen walls as they need to dig fairly deep when hibernating outside, chicken wire would get in the way. If that won't be an issue you can use it.

1 adult box turtle needs a minimum of 4'x4' of pen, so 2 would be around 8'x8' or anything totaling up to very close to the same amount of square feet.

Here's some above view pictures of my male's pen.... I let it get a little wild in there last year, though he loved it that way. 8'x11'x3 1/2' tall (2' down)
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...tpen-right.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...ltpen-left.jpg

...I can't find the pictures of my babies' pen. It's 8'x5' plywood (unpainted, I was lazy), has 2' underground and about a foot and a half above. With 3 wire mesh lids.

The pen needs good morning sun exposure and some evening sun. Mid day doesn't matter so much as they're usually hiding then. - BUT, if the female lays eggs she'll need a nice sunny spot to put her nest. Drainage needs to be good, and of course don't use a part of your lawn that floods. lol

If your soil is clay you'll need to add other soil, sterile top soil that usually cost $1 a bag from any garden center (or walmart) works, I add a bag or two of play sand too. You need to make a couple spots in the pen where you dig down 2-3 feet and mix in peat moss, this is for winter and you'll put their hides/turtle houses over it. The peat helps hold moisture too for the those dry summer days. Water can be provided in a number of containers, try to use a food grade plastic or other safe plastics, and remember UVB might break it down some (though it's cheap to replace containers each spring). Some people have successfully used litter boxes

New ones of course, with some large rocks in them to make it easier to get in and out. Shallow rubbermaid or sterilite containers work too. Water needs to be changed daily so find something that won't be too difficult for you to take care of.

Old logs, large bark pieces, large flower pots with holes in the sides or anything else you can creatively turn into a house or decoration works.
For the pen, bigger is better. You get to plant stuff in it.

Last year I planted yellow squash in my baby turtle pen... they kept eating them, so I didn't get any.

The leaves make great shade. Greens like turnip and collards grow very fast, provide great shade, and if the turtles don't eat them... attracts grasshoppers. I'm going to plant green beans this year. If they don't eat them, or eat much, we can eat some ourselves. (I bet I get a bunch of beans with little wedge shaped bites taken out of them

)

No nightshade family plants - tomato, potato, peppers as the plants are toxic - but, tomatoes may be fine with adults who won't try munching on the plants (not sure about the flowers). Also, anything you plant in the pen is potentially at risk for being crushed by the turtles walking over it.

Similar set ups work for aquatics when it's time to put them outside, with more focus on a pond.

It is a lot of work, the toughest part is the digging. I really suggest you start that before the weather gets too warm.

abbycats · Apr 21, 2008

Thank you!! I have a lot of yard space to chose where to put the enclosure. I need to check in the garage tomorrow to see if we have left over fence slats from when we put our fence around the house. This will be a cool project!

We have a 6' privacy fence around our whole perimeter so dogs and kids are not a problem. Cats don't seem to mess with the turtles.

I will make a plan tomorrow to work on this!! Thanks

goldenkitty45 · Apr 22, 2008

Our box turtles were in a brick enclosure. But be careful that the bricks cannot be climbed up on - just enough of a foothold on a crooked brick and they can climb out. We had that happen a few times.

I always checked the bricks every few days. I would say the bricks were probably 5-6 bricks in height. At least double the height of a turtle standing on its hind legs.

abbycats · Apr 22, 2008

Bricks are a great idea too!!!

strange_wings · Apr 22, 2008

Originally Posted by abbycats

Bricks are a great idea too!!!

From GoldenKitty's description - if small bricks where used and not secured, not really... It's a bit like leaving your front door partially cracked open and hoping that your cats don't realize it and get out.
Box turtles are amazing climbers. (I love this person's pictures, I always get a good laugh out of them

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1506971,1506998 )
If you're going to build a pen, do it right so you won't have to worry about any escapes. You shouldn't have to check and fix it daily or every few days. If/when an escape happens you'd probably be very upset!
You can use concrete cinder blocks ( sat here for 15 minutes the other day and couldn't remember the word cinder

) but you need to reinforce them so they won't move as a falling cinder block or even a smaller brick can seriously injure a turtle. Wood driven down through the holes can work to secure them. Just beware that the slightest toe hold is all they need. Adding a wooden lip that overhangs the inside of the pen walls by a few inches could prevent that, as could adding lids. You still need to prevent dig out escapes.

And for some good news, I found 7 out of 9 of my babies up today! Three of them ate some grubs I found in the pen when I was cleaning the winter straw out.

goldenkitty45 · Apr 23, 2008

These were good size bricks - they worked well as long as you didn't have that toe hold like you mentioned. If you use fencing, then be sure the holes are not big enough to get their shell thru.

I guess a more solid wall (brick or boards) would be best outside.

vixen16 · Apr 23, 2008

Hey Ive got another question...

How does the Water Heater thing work.. I got one with my fish tank (used) but im not sure if its broken or not...
Right now when I turn it on it gets really hot.. like untouchable hot... is that what its suppose to do or is mine broken??

-

And as for the Turtle Pic strange_wings posted...

I didnt know Turtles could be so acrobatic!!!

Turtles....

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter