HELP! URGANT! I adopted a dog....And it's not going well

artgecko

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Ditto...
I used to watch the training shows by "uncle matty" on PBS and thought that his techniques "made sense" (i.e. correct the dog for bad behavior, but immediately praise the dog when they stop/correct the behavior and always be consistent in what the dog is and is not allowed to do, etc. He could be classified as an "old school" trainer because he does use choke chains during training. However, he did reinforce how to use them correctly (i.e. quick correction and never literally choking the dog). He also gave some instences when food could be used as a reward, but emphasized that praise should be the main reward (unless you always want to walk around with food in your pocket).

I felt the same way when I began watching Ceaser's show on explorer. Many of his methods and especially his way of approaching the problem by "thinking like a dog" really made sense to me. Do I agree with all of his methods and that they're always right? No. But, then again, I am more of a holistic type when it comes to dog-training and/or behavior modification. I like to pool from many different styles/resources and use different techniques that will work with my dog.

In terms of personal experience, several of Ceaser's techniques worked with my dog. Especially reinforcing order during walks and making my "rules" clear via body language. Does it make me a bad owner that I use a slip lead to walk my dog and correct him when he pulls? I don't think so. And, I know for a fact, that I would not get the same results with food rewards with my dog. Although those particular methods are not as appealing as training a dog solely with positive reinforcement (treats, toys, whatever), they did work in my case. And now, I can open the yard gate to dispose of doggy poo without having to tie him up... He won't run outside of the yard because he knows he is not allowed to.

Now, I am not saying that those methods are the only ones that I would ever use and I do still use rewards with my dog, but I balance them with disciipline and rules so that he knows that not only does good behavior benefit him, but there are some behaviors that are unacceptable.

I have a friend that only trains using treats and I think that it can really limit what you can do...when you totally discount a method or set of methods solely based on how you feel about them. Even my friend admits that she only works with dogs that her methods will work with. I know a dog like mine, would much rather chase after another dog (or the mail man) than eat a treat, so I must use other methods with him. I know that there are some dogs that LIVE for food or toys, and in their case, reward-based training would work. But IMO, it's always best to keep an open mind. It's also important to me, to think about what dogs are like in their "natural" setting...i.e. their "pack". We say that as cat owners, we have to think like a cat to help us solve behavior problems...i.e. if the cat is spraying the window, maybe he's seeing the neighbor's cat outside and getting nervous about it, etc. So, as a dog owner, I also like to think like a dog... for example, if a dog lower in the pack jumped up and started "humping" a higher-ranking dog...would the higher ranking dog let it or ignore the behavior? no. The higher ranking dog would push/ throw the other dog off and let the lower ranking dog know that the behavior is not acceptable. In the same way, I think that we have a responsibility to correct behaviors that could be dangerous and let our dogs know that they are unacceptable.

To the OP, I am very sorry about your loss and I hope that when the time is right, you can go out and find a dog that will better suit your needs. I'd suggest either getting an adult dog (where the temperment is more set and the dog less active) or going with a younger puppy (where you have more oppertunity to mold their behavior). I am no expert and have only worked with ~4 dogs, but I think the situations you described (growling when in/near crate, biting) sound like dominance (not a popular term right now, I know). My dog has growled at me twice...always over food/toys. Basically, he was saying "this is mine and I don't want you to touch it". Now that I have been taking him on walks more and doing more obedience, he has not growled at me and I can take toys from him... A big part of this was me gaining confidence around him, because it is easy for dogs to read body language and if you show any apprehension / fear they will pick up on it. A dog with a strong personality will take advantage and tell you what he/she thinks is and is not acceptable (by growling or snapping).

In your particular case, because you need a dog that is small dog and cat-safe, I'd suggest working with an adoption group (where they foster dogs in their homes) so that they can find the best match for your situation. Although shelters do the best they can, you can only tell so much about a dog's personality when they are in a kennel situation.

Good luck to you and I hope you find just the right dog for you and your furry crew!
Art
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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Originally Posted by Liza24

Unless you have facts to back up what you say and not HERESAY, then i suggest you be careful what you say. Your NOT a dog behaviorist. Cesar has worked with millions of dogs, and has turned them around. You dont have a right to say those things about him. His lessons have helped me with so called " bully breeds". He must know something, or else he would be in jail and not quite as famous if he goes around " killing dogs" as you say.
I didn't say he goes around killing dogs. You misquoted me. I said there are two dogs that have died because of his methods.

And actually, I have a business in dog behaviour and training, and I DO have a qualification, so I feel that puts me in a position to speak with experience about other trainers and their questionable methods. My business is called `Citizen Canine' and I registered it last year. I am in the process of building my clientele and setting up my website. If I wasn't pregnant I would also be in the process of getting my SECOND qualification, which I will now be starting next year instead of this year.

And I do have back-up to all of the things I was saying - I don't just make stuff up out of thin air - so there is no need for you to get so personal and aggressive with me. Here is an example. Animal behavior expert Patricia McConnell writes (regarding the ludicrous alpha roll) in her book The Other End of The Leash "Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground. . . . Within their social framework, you're acting like a lunatic." She is a very well-known behaviourist who has published several books and worked with many, many dogs.

Another very well respected behaviourst, Jean Donaldson (the San Francisco SPCA Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers), said of Cesar Millan "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and the use of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like `whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable."

Some more `back-up' for you:

On September 6, 2006, the American Humane Association issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper" and called on the National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately.

In October 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants wrote a letter to the National Geographic Channel regarding concerns "that the program may lead children to engage in unsafe behaviors." The Association called for a change in the program's rating of TV-G.

January 2008, DogTime.com interviewed professional trainers associated with the APDT, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, and although these trainers pointed out that Cesar's TV show works with dogs needing rehabilitation that his methods may not be long term solutions. Trish King, Director of the Animal Behavior and Training Department at the Marin Humane Society observes: "In some of his shows, Cesar tells the owner how 'calm and submissive' a dog is, when to me, the dog looks shut down and fearful."

I am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. You may feel that I am not a dog behaviourist - I feel that Cesar is not one. Certainly I am young in my field and have many more years before I have worked with as many dogs as Cesar - which, I'm sorry, I don't think is `millions'. I don't think that's actually physically possible?

Many experienced and reputable dog trainers and behaviourists do not agree with his methods, whether you find that palatable or not. I am one of them, and I have cited several examples to `back me up' as you suggested I should. You do not have to agree with me.

Cesar Millan has been sued, his television show has been banned, and there is a great deal of discussion about him in the dog world - because of his approach. He has some methods that work - of course he does, otherwise he wouldn't be as successful as he is. But that does not make him a good behaviourist or trainer, and it does not mean he has a good understanding of dogs. Many methods in training are used across the board - and he uses some of them, too, so he gets some success.

It is my opinion that he has limited understanding of dog psychology and behaviour - and it is not just my opinion. You are welcome to disagree with me. You are not welcome to attack me personally. If you feel the need to do so again you may do it in a personal message.
 

miagi's_mommy

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I highly doubt she meant to bite you she's just a puppy. If it was an adult dog, I'd be concerned - but you NEED to enroll her in dog obdience classes first and foremost. she's gorgeous.
you need to do your research on them if you haven't yet. http://www.pbrc.net will help you with that. good luck!!
 
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EnzoLeya

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An update.....

They put her back on petfinder!!!! And it says nothing about her not being good with other animals or being aggressive! It says the exact same thing as before, "good with all kinds of animals." The only thing new on her profile is that a new shelter is posting her profile for the shelter I got her from!!!

 
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EnzoLeya

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Originally Posted by mews2much

If this helps you we had to take a Doberman back to the Pound once because she tried to attack the Cats and was very mean. My Sister took her to the no kill Pound instead of the kill Pound. We hated taking her back but it was not safe to have her.
It's nice to know I'm not the only one. If she wasn't such a danger to my cats (and me), I would have done everything I could to keep her.
 
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EnzoLeya

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Originally Posted by NinaCaliente

I think you did the right thing by returning the dog. Just this weekend, an acquaintence of mine adopted a dog that was supposed to be good with cats; at the first dog-cat introduction, the dog broke loose and killed their cat. You have to put your family's and your resident pets' safety first.

A personal story: I had a SharPei that I PTS a few years ago. I raised her from a puppy, and she was 5 when she passed away. She was the most loyal, devoted dog I've ever known, but she was also aggressive with outsiders from day one. To make a long story short, I took her to a trainer, a behaviorist, and several vets, but when she snarled, lunged and snapped at the face of my 6yo neighbor boy as he walked up my sidewalk (thank God she was leashed), I knew I could not handle her anymore. I had a long talk with my vet, and he helped me understand that as much as I loved her, I could not risk her mauling my neighbors or my children's friends.

I still have a lot of guilt about this (I'm crying as I type this). I used to spend a lot of time thinking about "if only"s, things I should've/could've done differently. But now I kind of accept that I did the best I could for her with the knowledge and resources I had to work with.

I'm sorry that Inky wasn't safe for your family. I hope you find another dog that will be a perfect match. Perhaps, when you're ready to adopt another dog, try looking for a rescue dog who's been fostered with cats for a period of time. I know your kitties and your little dog love you for keeping them safe.
Oh my goodness! I'm sorry for that friend of yours!
I could most definitely see that happening with Inky and any cats in the house with her!

and I'm sorry about your dog! You did the right thing though. It's good to know when something is not safe and do something about it. I'm sure it was a horrible thing to decide, but I'm glad you did it for the safety of others.
 

sweet72947

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Originally Posted by EnzoLeya

An update.....

They put her back on petfinder!!!! And it says nothing about her not being good with other animals or being aggressive! It says the exact same thing as before, "good with all kinds of animals." The only thing new on her profile is that a new shelter is posting her profile for the shelter I got her from!!!

Use one of the pictures that you have and put her on petfinder yourself, with a big WARNING under it, hopefully people will see this and it will discourage them. This is highly irresponsible of the shelter to do this. It is quite a liability for them to adopt out a dog like that to an unsuspecting person, let alone LIE to people about her!
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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I agree. She needs to go to a home where her owner will be prepared to have her seen and helped by a behaviourist, and the owner needs to agree to this prior to adopting her. She's very sweet and beautiful-looking, so petfinder are irresponsible to be virtually perpetuating the cycle of this dog being homed and then returned, homed and then returned, so she will eventually end up even more psychologically damaged, and will possibly be beyond help, which I don't feel that she is now.

It should at the very least specify that she needs to go to a home without other pets or children, so that the owner has the chance to have her treated without being fearful for the safety of their other pets in the meantime.
 

aelurophile

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Originally Posted by Sweet72947

Use one of the pictures that you have and put her on petfinder yourself, with a big WARNING under it, hopefully people will see this and it will discourage them.
To be fair, you might want to contact the shelter (the one that placed the new ad) before doing this. It's possible that the original shelter didn't tell them this dog's full history. If they did know the history and still posted the ad, though, they are creating a potentially dangerous situation. Sad for the dog and any future adopters.
 

lindsey88

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IMO the dog should have been put down not adopted out. Either that or sent to a foster home with a behaviorist. I can't believe they put her back up on petfinder.
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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Many, many dogs with far worse aggression issues than a single bite under duress have been successfully rehabilitated and homed. Being PTS is a final resort that should only be used when other options are exhausted. Especially in a young, healthy puppy.

But the dog shouldn't be rehomed until it has been assessed and treated, or unless it can be homed to someone who is prepared to undertake the necessary treatment it needs. Anything else is irresponsible by petfinder or whoever has the dog in their care.
 

lindsey88

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Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva!

Many, many dogs with far worse aggression issues than a single bite under duress have been successfully rehabilitated and homed. Being PTS is a final resort that should only be used when other options are exhausted. Especially in a young, healthy puppy.

But the dog shouldn't be rehomed until it has been assessed and treated, or unless it can be homed to someone who is prepared to undertake the necessary treatment it needs. Anything else is irresponsible by petfinder or whoever has the dog in their care.
I agree with you 100% this shelter should have put the puppy in a foster home with someone who knows how to rehabilitate dogs. If they cannot do this they should not adopt the dog out to someone! My Boston terrier came to be extremely aggressive. She is a complete sweetheart now but will bite if pushed too far.
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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And you can't blame them, really, can you? I mean, what other outlet does a frustrated, frightened and confused dog have? Many dogs will give several warning before they will bite - in fact, most dogs will. But dogs who have had a history of unpredictble treatment at the hands of abusive owners have all their wires crossed, and they just get it all wrong - poor things.
 

lindsey88

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Yep Maggie the boston terrier's problems started when she was purchased by someone at only 6 weeks of age and eventually passed around to 4 other homes before finally ending up with me. Maggie growls before she bites so if i'm doing something she doesn't like she will growl, and she will bite only if I keep doing the thing she doesn't like. If she was a larger dog though she would have had to have been euthanized by now...
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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Really? Little dogs can give very vicious bites, too. I still don't agree with euthanasia for aggression problems - unless they are very severe cases. It's amazing what a good `therapist' can do for a dog.
 

lindsey88

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She has severe aggression problems just with her short muzzle she can't do much harm. If she was a big dog I would probably be minus some fingers.
 

white cat lover

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I am of the opinion that Inky should've been euthanized. Sorry, but she's taking up much needed space for a dog who is more adoptable, she's a hazard to the public for that humane society, & she's a danger to the volunteers. I see the "political" side of it, should she bite someone that facility is liable & could be in for a world of hurt. I doubt they have the $$ for a behaviorist or trainer.
 

miagi's_mommy

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Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva!

Many, many dogs with far worse aggression issues than a single bite under duress have been successfully rehabilitated and homed. Being PTS is a final resort that should only be used when other options are exhausted. Especially in a young, healthy puppy.

But the dog shouldn't be rehomed until it has been assessed and treated, or unless it can be homed to someone who is prepared to undertake the necessary treatment it needs. Anything else is irresponsible by petfinder or whoever has the dog in their care.
I agree. I will be sick if she is pts because of lack of options for her. she shouldnt be pts, she needs some extra loving and I disagree that she would be better off being euthanized, she's only a puppy and probably bit out of fear and nothing else. I just pray she isn't euthanized and can be helped. they aren't out of options IMO.

she can be helped if they are willing to try, if not she will lose her life.
you see, this makes me very, very upset because so many people think pit bulls are bad dogs, they aren't most of the time they just have bad owners.
it just sounds like this dog bit out of fear and nothing else.

I hardly call her a hazard if she just bit out of fear, it can be helped with proper training methods. I am just so sorry it didn't work out for you, but I just hope she isn't put down because she bit out of fear.
 

white cat lover

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If it's any help, the place where she is/was....they're packed with Pits. Seriously, like 75% of the dogs are pits.

I just hope they tell the adopters she has bitten before. Not telling them that makes the adopter liable. And if they don't disclose past info, she could bite a kid & do some serious damage.

If she were at the humane society here, she'd be euthanized. There is no room for error, or doubts.....because it could cost a lot of other animals their lives.

I just have my doubts that this place is going to get her the help she needs. It's an animal control facility.
 

artgecko

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I agree that you should contact the new posting shelter. It may be that the old shelter passed her off to them and did not inform them of her behavioral issues. Hopefully, if informed of her problems, they will only let her go to a home with an experienced dog owner/behaviorist and/or the most appropriate permanant home. Any future adopters need to be aware of any issues she might have before they take her home and get surprised, just like you did...

I adopted an adult cat from our local shelter last year and after some mysterious health problems, found out (much time and money later) that he has an enlarged heart, all of the problems that go along with it, and seizures. On his card, it said that he was "from another shelter". I can only suspect that either the other shelter knew about the health problems and didn't inform our shelter, or that the previous owner knew (and that was why he was turned in) and didn't tell them. He is a great cat personality wise, but I would have never adopted him if I had known his medical history.

Adopters really need to be made aware of everything possible as concerns the animals' health and temperment before making a life-long committment to an animal. Even in your case, where you returned the dog, she could have done much worse damage to you or your cats before you took her back.

Art
 
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