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The End of Guilty Israel - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
The fact is the us had nothing to do with it until russia was going to come to egypt. Yes i know when france left Nato, but that was the start of the bad feelings with the french(its all been down hill since)
Actually, the US and Great Britain were going to finance US$270M of the Aswan Dam project. It was an effort to bring Egypt to the "allies" during the cold war - but they pulled the funding after Egypt signed an arms agreement with the USSR and recognized the PRC knowing full well what would happen.

Laurie
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Sarah, honestly, I didn't see or feel any agression in Kitten's post at all.
Really? Well, perhaps the sarcasm was also lost on you.

I hate the `with us or against us' mentality that abounds these days. Just because I have a capability of criticising Israel, it doesn't mean I am an anti-Semite or am unable to acknowledge the atrocity of their history.

I would just prefer to keep an open mind about things and acknowledge that it always - always - takes two to tango.
post #33 of 42
Thread Starter 
We are talking about something much more serious than the "tango".

Seriously though, if I interpret you correctly, do you ascribe to the opinion that 9-11 was our own fault then?
post #34 of 42
Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups are why there will never be peace in that region. As long as Hamas and other groups continue to lob rockets into Israel then I feel that Israel is justified in their responses.
post #35 of 42
To answer your question Cindy - no, I don't. Not your `fault'. Certainly not the fault of the thousands of innocent people who died, and that is the tragedy of it.

But I remember specifically thinking at the time that I wasn't really surprised that something like that had happened. If you push people long enough, they will retaliate. It's just a shame that it ended up in the hands of extremist murderers rather than diplomatic relations. Perhaps the oppressed parties felt they could not negotiate diplomatically with the US. The same way that the Israelis and Palestinians feel that they cannot negotiate diplomatically with one another.

And seeing as the US responded to 9/11 in kind, there will never be an end to your enmity with the middle east, either. Unless it's Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or someone currently on your `ok' list, who are important to you economically and militarily, despite their actions (Saudi Arabia in particular).

The US has the means, the people and the power to end such conflicts peacefully. You cannot expect extremists to want a peaceful end to anything. But as long as you continue to respond to violence with violence, war with war, retaliation with retaliation, nothing will change.
post #36 of 42
And I just wanted to add to my previous post - to those who will respond to it in anger, and say `we will never sit back and let people attack us, we will never lie down and take hostility, we will do whatever it takes to protect our country and our people, even if that means war', well, that's exactly what the Palestinians are doing, in their eyes. And the Israelis, for that matter. You have more in common with them than you think. I can't honestly say I wouldn't be the same if Australia were attacked. But I can say I hope I would not be.

It is easy to see how that kind of mentality never, ever leads to a resolution of anything.
post #37 of 42
I am the first to admit that I'm not nearly as well versed in the conflict surrounding Israel as Laurie, Bruce and a few others. But while I don't feel that Israel is beyond reproach, if they have a right to exist then by god they have a right to defend themselves against those that wish to destroy them. This isn't just about them being jerks and starting skirmishes with everyone in the area. There are nations surrounding them that would be more than happy to drop a nuke on Israel (if it wouldn't destroy their holy sites). If you don't think they should defend themselves, then you may as well say that they don't have a right to exist as a nation.

I'm also noticing something in the replies here. The people who are very critical of Israel are also very critical of the US. Could it be that the vilification of the US has rubbed off on Israel because we do support their right to exist and defend themselves? It's pretty obvious that the idea that Israel is just a mini-US or at least under the US's wing is pervasive within the reasoning behind being against Israel. Just a thought...
post #38 of 42
And a fair thought at that. I'd like to clarify, though, that that is not my opinion, Heidi. I am critical of US foreign policy - I'm not critical of THE US as a country or nation, or its people. Same with Israel.

I would suggest that the reason people don't drop nukes on Israel is because Israel has one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals. It's just plain common sense not to bomb them. I think that is a significant underlying reason for the US's alliance with them, too.

I also never said that Israel did not have a right to defend themselves. Not at any point. My entire premise in this debate has been that Israel do not have a right to do whatever they please in the pursuit of that defence, and expect anyone and everyone to accept it, because of the atrocities of their history.

If you read my and others' posts more thoroughly, you would see that the assumptions you make are just that - assumptions. I'd really like to add that you seem to be perpetrating the `with us or against us' mentality, too. It's really not fair. It is possible to be critical of something without being 100% against it. I spent 10 years being critical of my country's government whilst still loving my country and being proud to be Australian.

Just because I am critical of some of Israel's actions it doesn't mean I think they should be wiped out, not have any land, not be listened to, not defend themselves. Same with the US. Bruce spends a lot of time on here assigning blanket motivations and making blanket assertions about liberals. So I'm going to make a similar assertion. I find that it is a common trait amongst conservatives to be only black-and-white. Cut-and-dried. With us or against us. Love us or hate us.

Life just doesn't work that way, and being critical of something and thinking that it could be handled better doesn't mean you think it should be wiped out or destroyed, or that you hate it or wish it harm.
post #39 of 42
Thread Starter 
We helped Afghanistan expel the Soviets. We helped Kuwait expel the Iraqui's. If I do remember correctly, both countries asked for our help.
In Kuwait we were part of an actual coalition of countries that included many Arab, Muslim countries. But WE "push people long enough they will retailiate"
How soon they forget. Well, thank you for your response, I know where you stand now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
To answer your question Cindy - no, I don't. Not your `fault'. Certainly not the fault of the thousands of innocent people who died, and that is the tragedy of it.

But I remember specifically thinking at the time that I wasn't really surprised that something like that had happened. If you push people long enough, they will retaliate. It's just a shame that it ended up in the hands of extremist murderers rather than diplomatic relations. Perhaps the oppressed parties felt they could not negotiate diplomatically with the US. The same way that the Israelis and Palestinians feel that they cannot negotiate diplomatically with one another.

And seeing as the US responded to 9/11 in kind, there will never be an end to your enmity with the middle east, either. Unless it's Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or someone currently on your `ok' list, who are important to you economically and militarily, despite their actions (Saudi Arabia in particular).

The US has the means, the people and the power to end such conflicts peacefully. You cannot expect extremists to want a peaceful end to anything. But as long as you continue to respond to violence with violence, war with war, retaliation with retaliation, nothing will change.
post #40 of 42
There's that black-and-white, with us or against us, love us or hate us mentality again. It's such a shame - because once people have decided how you think, they rarely listen to what you actually have to say.
post #41 of 42
OMG! Seriously?

You know, I've found that so much of my issues with many different things is that I don't see much of anything in the ol' "black and white" you presume us conservatives to only see. And as far as "with us or against us", it seems you're guilty of that too, Sarah. Anyone who has stood up for Israel's right to defend themselves is obviously only for Israel and against you. I didn't say that at all. And perhaps reading my thread more critically would have shown you this statement:

Quote:
But while I don't feel that Israel is beyond reproach, if they have a right to exist then by god they have a right to defend themselves against those that wish to destroy them.
I never said they didn't do some things I didn't think were bad. I don't think all their targets for retaliatory bombings are military targets, but you know what? I also fully admit that I don't live there and I don't understand the conflict enough to truly pass judgement on them for choosing their targets. At least they do choose their targets, as opposed to Hamas and Hezbollah, which are now the leading political parties of Palestine . You wanna pass judgement? How about voting in known terrorist parties to lead the country. Yeah, that's going to lead to peace.

Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. Do you think they wouldn't have been invaded before now if they didn't?

I realize you don't think anything is ever solved by military conflict. That's your right to beleive it. In a perfect world, you would be SO right! But I don't think that idea would work well in this part of the world. Based on the Palestinian people's actions in choosing their leaders, as well as other nations in the region (i.e. Iran), I don't think that peace is something they would actually work toward except by giving it lip service. I think that Israel actually does strive for peace. Perhaps not always in the past, but in the present I think they do. For as long as I've been paying attention, I don't recall Israel attacking without it being a reaction to their people - their citizens, not just military targets - being indescriminately attacked by either the PLO or other PLO/Leboneze backed terrorist group.
post #42 of 42
Lol! So it seems that, in essence, we pretty much agree. And that's why I like these discussions - because the deeper people get into the things, the more they talk, the more it appears that their aims at the heart of the issue are pretty similar. Which also kind of goes with my more general view of life and conflict.

I also never said I don't think that anything can ever be solved by military conflict. But I don't think it should be the first port of call, either. I am an idealist in that way - I admit that, I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Like you - I don't know enough to make educated comments about this conflict one way or another. But I do feel that rather than blaming the Israelis for everything, or the Palestinians for everything, it wouldn't hurt people to acknowledge that there is fault on both sides. The Palestinians probably feel that their attacks have all been `retaliatory' as well. That's why these kinds of conflicts never get resolved - and won't until one party just sits back and says `Well, this isn't working. We'll have to try something else' and takes the biggest slice of responsibility for peace - whether they feel it's fair or not.

Sometimes when you enter an argument (as I did) with a particular premise (which in this case for me, was that Israel is not faultless) it can appear that that is your ONLY premise. People do tend to single out one point and argue that point - but it doesn't mean it's their only point or their only opinion.

My opinion may be `typical' of a `liberal' opinion on this issue - but I would prefer not to compartmentalise myself into one ideology. I am a pacifist, and that is something I can't see changing. It's not an absolutism, though - nothing ever is!
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