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Ethics Question - Showing

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Ok here's a question for breeders - if you would do this.

A person calls you up and wants one of your cat to show as a neuter/spay. They don't want a kitten, but want an older cat - say 8 months to 2 yrs old - old enough to put right into adult classes.

This person does NOT want to pay for the cat other then shipping and the cost of neuter/spay - so basically wants a show cat for free. They will show the cat at their expense.

Would you hand over one of your neutered/spayed cats to this person - for free - no other charges?

What would you do if you found out that this person not only got a free cat from you but turned around and when the cat was done showing or not winning any more, would give the cat away to someone else OR sell this cat to another?

BTW this person also shows very poor sportsmanship at the shows - when the cat doesn't win or is beat by another cat (same breed), they get mad and do not show the next day.
post #2 of 28
yeah...i don't think so. honestly with what you're saying, i wouldn't even sell your cat to this person.
post #3 of 28
Originally Posted by okiron View Post
yeah...i don't think so. honestly with what you're saying, i wouldn't even sell your cat to this person.
not a breeder, but i wouldn't even give this guy a moggie.
post #4 of 28
If I were looking for a home for a stray off the street I would not want it to end up with them.

Doesn't sound as if they really enjoy showing that much either, seems a bit pointless.

As to the ethics of giving away cats for free, any cat, then with the exception of a private arrangement between friends where you know it is going to a good home (and it doesn't sound as though this is!), otherwise no.
post #5 of 28
First, I wouldn't sell any older cat as a show cat, they normally won't behave well at a show. They need to be shown as kittens to develope the right mentality.

Second, who gets a show cat for free, unless it's a good friend or breeder you're in good with?

As for the last part, good sportsmanship is a must! You win some you lose some and you come back next time. It's supposed to be fun. It's not the Olympics, and you don't dump your show cat because you get beat a few times.
post #6 of 28
I don't think so. However I do know someone who was willing to give me a retired show cat (who I could have shown in alter class) for free because they just wanted to make sure she went to a really good home...
post #7 of 28
I'm not a breeder, but my two cents would be that I wouldn't give away a show quality cat but to family. If I was coaxed into it I'd still write up a contract saying the cat comes back to me if they no longer can care for/want the animal, same as with selling a kitten...

Because if I didn't and they sold/gave it away, I don't think I'd have any recourse to reclaim/keep tabs on/etc. the cat in question.
post #8 of 28
I would not!!!
post #9 of 28
No way would that person get a kitty of mine. I am not a breeder of cats but if I was I would value the home of the cat more than showing. Showing doesn't last forever, the cat can live 20 years and the home is so important as that will be where the cat should be for their entire life while showing and after they are finished showing. Any person with a history of selling/giving away a cat that a breeder placed with them means they will do the same with any cat I give or sell to them, they are not a stable home and would not get one of my cats or a recommendation from me if other breeders inquire. If I was a rescue I would also not place any of my cats with them.

Breeders can only do their best with the information they have at the time, and all signs on this person point to don't place a cat with them. Ethics - that is if the breeder has the cat in mind first and foremost, as they should. If they value showing over the cats home and stability, then the ethics are poor IMO.

Most breeders I know sell altered show kittens and altered retired adults, they sell them regardless of if they will be shown or not. They understand there is always a percentage that says they will be shown or shows an interest in showing, but some don't always follow through with that, but if they are a great forever pet home that works and is okay. They also rarely place unaltered show quality kittens for this reason. And show cats, alter or not, are rarely given away for free for any reason.
post #10 of 28
Pretty easy question, no I would not give that person a cat. I wouldn't even sell them one.

I don't know any breeders who give away cats, even retired breeding cats are sold even if it's just the cost of desexing.

Can't stand poor sportsmanship, geez it's just a cat show.
post #11 of 28
I don't sell cats to people who want them for free. No matter the age of the cat or if the only want a pet, a show cat or a breeding cat.
post #12 of 28
I don't even know why you would even ask the question in the first place - it's a no-brainer!
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
I knew the answer, just wanted to see what others would say. A lot of breeders at the show were pretty upset.
post #14 of 28
Anyone who has feeling, a soul, and morals, would want any cat they bred to end up in a home where it would be happy and loved the rest of its life. At the same time if that cat were show quality and taken to shows and did well it would be a boon to the breeder. But when it comes to finding a home for your cats (whether purebred or moggy) home for life and happiness are paramount, showing is the cherry on top, and should never be the only consideration.
post #15 of 28
I wouldnt sell to this person EVER a kitten, cat or retiree. I do place my retirees at a fraction of my kitten prices and a good home comes first. A cat that has already been bred is going to be retired and if they want to show for fun, thats great.

If a family is looking for a show alter as a kitten and the person is running an altered cattery, its a plus for me for the cat to win and final, and the cat may be petted out if the person chooses, but either way a cat should only retire one time IMO unless its a best friend or co ownership agreement.
post #16 of 28
Thread Starter 
I did do a little research on her past cats. One came from France, one she "co-owned" so the cat may have gone back to the other person.

But her statement about "I don't keep them - I either give them away or sell them" got me upset. Apparently it was verified by some others who know her better - this was my first time meeting her. I was NOT impressed to say the least.
post #17 of 28
Then she should be operating as a alter cattery and getting kittens and showing them, not trying to get free show cats and repetting them out. A show cat should retire one time. I do have girls that have retired from breeding and are actively showing but they are cherished pets and at the end of the day, they will be a pet until their ripe old age (hopefully).
post #18 of 28
Originally Posted by moonandstarkatz View Post
Then she should be operating as a alter cattery
I've never heard of an alter cattery before, I take it they show alters then re-home them later on?

I know why breeders have to retire breeding cats, I didn't know people did that with alters too.
post #19 of 28
NO Absolutely NOT! I wouldn't do it. Not for a show cat, if that was their only purpose and then rehome the cat. I've had friend breeders offer me show cats and/or breeders for shipping only. But they know me, we're friends and they trust me and know my character. Plus I've taken in some of their handicapped cats in the past and they are very grateful for that. So I think that's a little different. I sure hope you don't go for that scam!

I have a registered cattery (CFA) for the purpose of rescue (can get vet meds easier) and now showing. Up till now, all my cats have been altered. Who knows what will happen in the future
post #20 of 28
There are catteries that do show alters and pet out their alters when they have titled. I usually find these folks are the ones that are serious into shows and usually are in show management or are working to become a judge without breeding and they need 5 LH and 5 SH in TICA to title at various levels to become a judge. In what way is this different than I as a breeder buying a breeding cat from someone else, showing and breeding it and then petting it out (done with plp I trust for the cost of speuter and health cert and carrier).
I suppose it depends on the type of person showing and how the cats are treated at home. Altered catteries don't have to worry about males spraying and thats a big plus in my book. But I have yet to place with one of these folks, all of my show alter kittens go as pets that can be shown and are shining examples of the breed and typically siblings to those I keep back for breeding.
post #21 of 28
Hi Daisy, I have never heard of alter catteries before this thread, I feel more enlightened having read your post! Just out of interest, which breed do you specialise in? And welcome to TCS
post #22 of 28
Hi Epona,

Thanks for the warm welcome.
Glad my post made sense, it can be confusing as the cat fancy has so many ways of doing things ie. collective catteries ect.

My experience with alter catteries mostly seems to be those of a retired age who may be limited in their own time due to age, and love being able to show as a hobby while not having the long term housing requirements of a permanent companion. They get to enjoy their show cats, participate in the fancy commonly with their friends and see the alters off to great pet homes.

My mini intro:
I work with Traditional Siberians (I don't breed colorpoints) here in Ohio, USA. I have 4 girls and 2 gorgeous boys.
My girls are: Rajjah, solid black
Bella, a blue cream tortie smoke
Marigold, black classic torbie
Kisa, Marigolds daughter, brown mackerel

My boys are:
Tayga, a blue classic
Armand, brown mackerel with white who is from my first litter.
I also have 1 solid black girl who is a poly from the pound.

post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
That's a new thing to me. Its possible this is what this person does - she fits the "profile" on some levels.

But as far as I know she's not going in the judging program and her attitude of "if my cat doesn't win, I'm going home and dumping it" is what us and others don't like about her.

What doesn't make sense is her claim of breeders handing over cats to her for free to be shown. Still don't think that many of them know she doesn't keep the cats long. And the fact that she never has cats from the same person/cattery is a bit suspicious.

But thanks for a different look to the situation
post #24 of 28
I wouldn't sell to this specific person. Just not willing too. The attitude, the not keeping long (titling a cat takes time and patience plus to see the long term development) and I don't know a soul who just GIVES AWAY a show cat. Plus the big difference here is she wants a cat ready for permanent retirement while most alter catteries get kittens.
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
I found out a little more to the story. But she didn't make this clear at the time - apparently she takes these cats for free, shows them and most of them do return to the original breeder who "gave" her the cat.

That sounds better, but the way she put it at the show was not the same thing at all. If she had told the truth of "I show breeder's cats for them and then return them when done" would have made a lot more sense.

Still think its wrong to just give them away or sell them unless the original breeder oks that.
post #26 of 28
When I place a kitten, I am VERY specific that if a breeder has a cat from me or a pet owner has the kitten, I will rehome the kitten or cat for a family and have first right of the cat back if they are retiring it and in the least require knowledge of the new owner. If I trusted the breeder to get a kitten from me, I trust they can place it, I just need to be aware.
post #27 of 28
Sorry I haven't been posting but I have been following this thread with interest.

My take? No, I wouldn't give away a cat. Some sort of money and contract MUST change hands to make a sale valid, even if it is for a token amount.

You know that I now show Maine Coons. Not mine. The breeder of these Maine Coons is Handicapped. So, for the new show season, and for purposes of Granding/DW, instead of being agent on record, I will temporarily co-own the Maine Coon with no breeding rights (don't want it anyway, at least not for now). When what is wanted for the cat is achieved, the co-ownership is dissolved, and the cat is returned to his breeder (with great sadness in my heart). In this manner, both the breeder and myself bears the costs of keeping the cat in show condition, grooming and showing the cat.

This "deal" gives me what I need - Long hair grands under my name, the knowledge of Maine Coons and it also gives the breeder what he needs - being able to grand a cat in the shortest possible amount of time. However, this is not for everyone. There is a large amount of trust and respect between the breeder and myself for this to work!
post #28 of 28
Thats very nice of you to work with the MC breeder and I agree completely with a contract especially to make everything exact.
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