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Court Orders Navy Must Protect Marine Mammals

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,1,25266.story

Appellate courts have upheld the lower court rulings that the Navy must follow guidelines to protect marine mammals from sonar. What has to happen for the Navy to accept this?
post #2 of 10
It never ceases to amaze & disgust me, what humans do to the other intelligent beings on this planet... if you take into account all of the greater beings on the earth, dolphins, whales, elephants, the apes, wolves, lions & others, they are all part of a close family structure...
I wonder how humans would feel if beings from another world would invade our lives by dumping garbage into our livingrooms, peircing our eardrums with loud unexpected sound, culling our numbers, taking our skins, chopping off our hands & leaving our bodies to rot in front of our families. Something tells me it wouldn't be ok anymore. So why do humans do it now? And why do we search for intelligent life on other worlds when we treat the intelligent life on our own world with such callous disrespect?
post #3 of 10
Ok, I'll probably get flamed for this, but when it comes to training the military to protect our land and our freedom to help animals, I'm all for it. Believe me, I don't want to see dead dolphins or whales, but I also don't want to be dead myself. Sending out a warning (as in a minor sonic signal) would be good to send the whales and dophins away would be great. But, that might also alert anyone else in the area that the US is doing training.

I dove in Guam for 4 years. I have seen the destruction done to the reefs during WW2 when Guam was taken back from the Japanese. I can only imagine the destuction done to the ocean life during the war. There are still US and Japanese planes underwater that have become "man made" reefs now. I've dove on ships that were sank in WW2 and it is a freaky experience. The caves are still there where they held the residences as "prisoners" and they lived there until the war was over.

Basically, if it's between me or the dolphins/whales...I chose me. And, if the military is allowed to train, we will still be around to be able to help any marine life that needs help. If the navy isn't allowed to train, then the US could be attacked and then the dolphins, whales, and all other marine life could be screwed....along with us.
post #4 of 10
Thread Starter 
Actually calico2222, yours is the majority opinion on these forums. I have posted other articles on this ongoing situation.

However, it seems to me that the judges -- the original judge, and the three appellate judges -- are in the best position to decide whether it is necessary to risk the lives of the marine mammals in order to hold these exercises. The judges have seen the navy's arguments and their documentation, even classified information, and have worked out conditions to protect the mammals while still allowing the training.

If we wait until the earth has perfect peace, we might wait until these species of mammals have been killed off. Making some allowances for their safety makes perfect sense to me.
post #5 of 10
But it seems to be the problem with everything concerning sharing our world with other living things-"I choose me". It seems like that's the attitude that has brought the planet to the brink of a real mess. Not only with the environment, but amongst ourselves.
I'm not giving you a hard time, but I just wonder why we can't develop technology that can do the same thing...if we can consider spending billions to go to Mars to find microscopic life in rocks, why is it always so hard to protect the life that we have here? Our priorities are so screwed up, I swear.
post #6 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShopCat View Post
But it seems to be the problem with everything concerning sharing our world with other living things-"I choose me". It seems like that's the attitude that has brought the planet to the brink of a real mess. Not only with the environment, but amongst ourselves.
I'm not giving you a hard time, but I just wonder why we can't develop technology that can do the same thing...if we can consider spending billions to go to Mars to find microscopic life in rocks, why is it always so hard to protect the life that we have here? Our priorities are so screwed up, I swear.
Actually, I agree with you completely. Our prorities ARE screwed up. Why? Because humans, by nature, are basically screwed up. We aren't like other animals who main drives are food, shelter, water, sex (well, I think I just described a few ex-boyfriends but...) we also have a drive for knowledge. To learn more. To create. That is why man started using fire. Created the wheel. Because we can think and reason more than most animals...and we have thumbs that allow us to do it and more. In addition to that, we also have real feelings and emotions, more so than most animals, as in we can love and hate and hold grudges. And we have the ability to try to figure out "what will happen if I do this". Add all these together and you get one very caring and helpful person, or you could get a very confused screwed up person.

Why are we spending so much money exploring other planets? I have no idea. Only answer I can give is...because we can, it's something new. Why did the chicken cross the road?

I think for the most part the human race has a lot of people that care about the enviornment because they have that ability of foresight and can see what is happening and can happen. But, at the same, you also have a lot of people that use the same intelligence to get ahead themselves with no respect for the earth or human (or animal) life.

I said I choose me because I think I'm one of the people that care about the enviornment and animals and the earth in general. And, as bad as it sounds, I would prefer keeping this country safe by DETERING attack rather than not allowing military to practice so someone will be stupid enough to attack with nuclear weapons and destroy the entire planet where the only things that survive are cockroaches and maybe deep water sharks.

I did say that I would love for them to be able to practice and have some sort of warning that will chase the whales and dolphins away. I think that is the least we can do.
post #7 of 10
Thread Starter 
I've posted other threads on this same issue which contained articles detailing exactly what conditions the judge imposed on the navy.

They include such things as having people watching for the marine mammals and having helicopters overhead do the same. They limit the distance from the mammals that the sonar can be used.

I don't what the navy's problems are with the limitations. Whatever they are, they have not convinced either the original judge or the appellate judges.

It does seem to be possible for the navy to have these training exercises and also follow the judges rules for the protection of the marine mammals.
post #8 of 10
Doesnt the Navy, or is it Coastguard, that uses dolphins or seals for secret missions? Supposedly the animals are not harmed, but now im hearing the sonar is affecting other animals in the area.
post #9 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by calico2222 View Post
Why are we spending so much money exploring other planets? I have no idea. Only answer I can give is...because we can, it's something new. Why did the chicken cross the road?
.
Because they are there. same reason people climb a hill.

Yes the navy should find a way to do there training without hurting the wild life.

on the other hand judges need to stay the h*** out of military.
post #10 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
Because they are there. same reason people climb a hill.

Yes the navy should find a way to do there training without hurting the wild life.

on the other hand judges need to stay the h*** out of military.
Actually, I'm not sure how this got in the courts. I suspect the Navy took it to court asking for a waiver or exemption to established law.

I just finished a book criticising the efforts of many groups, both left and right of the political spectrum for bringing political decisions to the courts. I agree, this is something that if the Navy didn't like the law, why didn't they try to change it in the legislature, instead of taking it to court?

If they were breaking the law, why couldn't they be arrested and stopped? Shouldn't the Navy be expected to follow the laws of the land like everyone else?

Why is this being decided in court and not "by the people" in the legislature or the federal government?

That's really a different issue I guess.
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