Possible breeds in the kittens' background?

artgecko

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hey folks,
I thought that I'd post some pics of my two boys (now 8 months, but these were take about 3 months ago) to see what breeds you think might be in their backgrounds. I know they are DSH, but am just curious what breeds they resemble. I was thinking burmese (head shape) for Frasier and maybe Ocicat or oriental for Niles.

Niles (3/4 view)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...uarterhead.jpg

Niles (front full)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...tingpretty.jpg

Frasier (side/profile):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...adsideview.jpg

Fraiser (front full)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...tingpretty.jpg

Thanks!
Art
 

goldenkitty45

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Probably nothing really specific. I've had barn cats that resembled "oriental" type as babies and by the time they were about 2 yrs old, were normal domestic shorthairs with rounders heads/bodies.

They are too mixed to really say any one breed. But both are very cute and pretty.
What kind of tabby markings does Niles have?
 

sol

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I can't really see any distinct breed features in them. Sometimes it's impossible to tell even when one of the parents is purebred.
 
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artgecko

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Niles has a very funky pattern... Unfortunately, it's not ver distinct, except on his legs. He has some broken mackeral lines, some spots, some blurry rosettes, even some "clusters" of spots with slightly darker hair inside of the clusters. His belly is spotted and his back line is broken into spots in the shoulder area and then forms a semi-solid line after that. Legs are striped (so a little of everything). I had never seen this combo of spotting/blurry rosettes on any cat, so think his pattern is pretty unique. Unfortunately, I don't have any good photos of his sides to show the pattern (and my personal computer is down, so I can't upload pics from my camera).

Both of them have the same mother, but I believe, different fathers as they look so different from each other.

Art
 
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artgecko

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Will do...
I'll try to get some tomorrow in natural light, if he'll cooperate. Hopefully I'll be able to use our other computer to upload them.

Art
 
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artgecko

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Here are some shots... I didn't want to include all here, so you can visit the album on photobucket http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t...20and%20Niles/ to see all of them.

Unfortunately, the natural light kept changes, so some aren't so clear.

Right side: this shot is a better one for actual coat color, but doesn't show his pattern as clearly (he was slightly turned).


Left side: The values (and shading to the sides of some of the spots) can't be seen very well in this shot (crappy light) but you can see the spots / broken bar pattern pretty well. Also shows the ticking pretty well.


Back: You can see one of the small groups of dots on his lower right shoulder in this shot, as well as a darker shaded area within a ring at the top of the shoulder. You can also see the dotted back line.


Not a good pattern shot, but it is a good color shot and he almost looks like an abby in it, as his pattern seems to disappear at this angle (except for the ticking).
 

goldenkitty45

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He's a little like the other one, Church. I'm gonna go with mackeral tabby on this one. He seems to have more mackeral looking stripes then Church does. With the heavy ticking in the coat, he may have aby in the background.

I had a mackeral tabby, Mitten. But his stripes were not well defined and tended to "disappear" in the heavy ticking. With some other clues, I'm guessing that he had an aby in the mix somewhere.
 

sol

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And I'd say he's red, pure and simple. Red cats almost always display "ghost patterns". Why do I think he's red?

1. The pattern is so very pale, on a distance you can barely see the pattern on his body.

2. He doesn't have the classical white tabby markings: white eye liners, white chin and white whisker pads.

This cat display all those typical tabby signs.
 

goldenkitty45

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I think his markings are a bit too much for a plain red. I had 3 red kittens in my first rex litter. Mom was tortie; dad was black smoke (carrying classic tabby).

We got:
1 Deep red classic tabby male
1 Medium red mackeral tabby male
1 Pale red male - he had very faint striping but by the time he was about 3- 4 months old, it was apparent he was a true red; barely any markings at all.

Since we got a classic in the group, we found out that dad was a classic carrier cause he produced some other classic tabbys.

The medium red mackeral tabby was not that great on markings - sorta like the OP's kitty. So I think he's red mackeral tabby rather then a true red.
 

sol

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I think his markings are a bit too much for a plain red. I had 3 red kittens in my first rex litter. Mom was tortie; dad was black smoke (carrying classic tabby).
If non of the parents are tabby, non of the kittens could ever be tabby. A tortie and a black smoke simply can't produce tabby kittens. Agouti is a dominant gene so it can't be carried without being expressed.

In my first rex litter I had two red males. They looked spotted tabby but since non of the parents were tabby they couldn't be tabby.

Red vs. red tabby is very tricky. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference but my opinion on this particular cat is that it's a dead certain solid red. I don't see any signs if tabby, except from the ghost pattern (which by the way are much paler than the ghost pattern in my red boys who genetically couldn't be tabby).
 

goldenkitty45

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I know who she was bred to - it was a black smoke and she was a tortie (not a patched tabby). And there were 6 kittens (3 red boys) and 2 tortie females and a black female.

I called up the breeder when I saw the classic markings. Lady's dad was a red mack tabby, so I assumed that any red males she had would be red mack tabbys. In subsequent litters (to red mctabbys or black/white) she still had red mctabby boys!

Tabby can be carried by a parent - you don't have to show it. If you say that it can't, then explain how you get a heck of a lot of black kittens with ghost tabby markings. Cause tabby gene is in there - showing or not. I think almost every cat is a tabby or a carrier. You have too much "ghost" tabby markings.

I've seen kittens from 2 black parents who had ghost markings - and in the background there are red or brown tabbys. I did a lot of research on pedigree with the colors. Most of the torties were from a red tabby parent and a black parent - they were not patched tabbys.
 

sol

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If you have seen many true tabbies after solid parents you have seen many miracles. Alternatively it's a faulty pedigree (much more common than we might think).

It's true not only that a cat may carry tabby, all cats carry tabby. Either ticked, mackerel, spotted or classic tabby. However this doesn't mean that two solid cats can produce tabby offspring. Why? Because of the agouti gene. The agouti gene is a dominant gene needed for the tabby pattern to be expressed. Of the parents has to carry the agouti gene in order for the offspring to become agouti and therefor ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby. A cat that carries agouti IS agouti=ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby.

That's the genetics of tabby patterns.

The carried tabby pattern IS the ghost pattern no matter what color the cat is. If the cat also is agouti it will be a ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby.
 

goldenkitty45

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Ok then explain how my tortie and a black smoke produced a classic tabby with very dense markings. No doubt it was a classic - one of the darkest and best on a c. rex the judges had seen
 
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artgecko

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Thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure that he's a solid...he looks solid in the last photo (the one where he's facing you) but the markings are more noticable in the shide shots..In person you can definately see the tabby markings all over, his pattern is just "blurry" (not clear) so the markings aren't as well defined.

In the case of his parents, the mother is a red/black/white tortoishell. Not suer on the dad though. His brother (black/white) did have tabby markings all over before his adult coat grew in, so I think the black is "covering" the tabby in his case.

Art
 

sol

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Ok then explain how my tortie and a black smoke produced a classic tabby with very dense markings. No doubt it was a classic - one of the darkest and best on a c. rex the judges had seen
What color? Red classic tabby, brown classic tabby or any other classic tabby?
 

siggav

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Isn't red in cats, as in the sex linked red always tabby? I.e it's genetically impossible to get a solid sex linked red cat. The ones who look mostly solid just have reaaally poor contrast on their markings so they blend in mostly.

I,e to quote

A "solid red" cat will always display the tabby pattern (although it may be very slight or even undetectable without brushing the fur back to check). There's another gene at work which controls "agoutiness" (whether individual hairs are banded or solid). Cats who are non-agouti will not generally display the tabby pattern, except in red areas. The non-agouti gene does not affect phaeomelanin, the red pigment, so red cats always show their tabby pattern.
Which is how you'll get tortie or calico cats with solid black and then red tabby markings vs. patched tabby where the non-agouti gene is there to change the black into the tabby markings as well.
 

sol

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Originally Posted by Siggav

Isn't red in cats, as in the sex linked red always tabby? I.e it's genetically impossible to get a solid sex linked red cat. The ones who look mostly solid just have reaaally poor contrast on their markings so they blend in mostly.

I,e to quote



Which is how you'll get tortie or calico cats with solid black and then red tabby markings vs. patched tabby where the non-agouti gene is there to change the black into the tabby markings as well.
ALL cats carry tabby. Every single cat has got some tabby pattern: either it's ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby. Even a completely black cat's got a tabby pattern but since a black cat don't also carry the agouti gene the tabby pattern never shows (except from maybe as ghost patterns in the kitten).

Red cats (no matter if it's a tortie or a completly red/creme cat), because of the nature of pheomelanin, more or less always show ghost patterns. This does not qualify the cat as a genetic tabby. In order to be a genetic tabby the cat also has to be agouti, which means that the pattern is fully expressed.

Now it's important to differ phenotype from genotype. Some cat's got one genotype and another phenotype. White cats are the perfect example. Their phenotype is white but their genotype is white AND the color beneath the white.

It can be very hard, even impossible to tell if a cat is red or red tabby. If one parent indeed is agouti it's OK to say that the cat is red tabby. If the cat has two solid parents... the cat can't be agouti and therefor cannot have the genotype red tabby but the phenotype might be red tabby.

I don't know how TICA or CFA do, but in FIFÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] you will not be able to register an offspring from two solid cats as tabby since it's genetically impossible. In some cases a cat can be registred with both genotype and phenotype. Typically a solid blue cat that produce silver offspring with a non-silver cat (blue, silver and wide band is a story on itself).

So in order words: we have to separate the tabby patterns from the agouti gene (the gene that makes a cat a genetic tabby) and we have to separate genotype from phenotype.
 
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