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Possible breeds in the kittens' background?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
hey folks,
I thought that I'd post some pics of my two boys (now 8 months, but these were take about 3 months ago) to see what breeds you think might be in their backgrounds. I know they are DSH, but am just curious what breeds they resemble. I was thinking burmese (head shape) for Frasier and maybe Ocicat or oriental for Niles.

Niles (3/4 view)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...uarterhead.jpg

Niles (front full)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...tingpretty.jpg

Frasier (side/profile):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...adsideview.jpg

Fraiser (front full)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...tingpretty.jpg

Thanks!
Art
post #2 of 27
Probably nothing really specific. I've had barn cats that resembled "oriental" type as babies and by the time they were about 2 yrs old, were normal domestic shorthairs with rounders heads/bodies.

They are too mixed to really say any one breed. But both are very cute and pretty. What kind of tabby markings does Niles have?
post #3 of 27
I can't really see any distinct breed features in them. Sometimes it's impossible to tell even when one of the parents is purebred.
post #4 of 27
They are both very cute
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Niles has a very funky pattern... Unfortunately, it's not ver distinct, except on his legs. He has some broken mackeral lines, some spots, some blurry rosettes, even some "clusters" of spots with slightly darker hair inside of the clusters. His belly is spotted and his back line is broken into spots in the shoulder area and then forms a semi-solid line after that. Legs are striped (so a little of everything). I had never seen this combo of spotting/blurry rosettes on any cat, so think his pattern is pretty unique. Unfortunately, I don't have any good photos of his sides to show the pattern (and my personal computer is down, so I can't upload pics from my camera).

Both of them have the same mother, but I believe, different fathers as they look so different from each other.

Art
post #6 of 27
If you can get a clear shot of the sides (both) post them when you can.
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
Will do...
I'll try to get some tomorrow in natural light, if he'll cooperate. Hopefully I'll be able to use our other computer to upload them.

Art
post #8 of 27
Thread Starter 
Here are some shots... I didn't want to include all here, so you can visit the album on photobucket http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t...20and%20Niles/ to see all of them.

Unfortunately, the natural light kept changes, so some aren't so clear.

Right side: this shot is a better one for actual coat color, but doesn't show his pattern as clearly (he was slightly turned).


Left side: The values (and shading to the sides of some of the spots) can't be seen very well in this shot (crappy light) but you can see the spots / broken bar pattern pretty well. Also shows the ticking pretty well.


Back: You can see one of the small groups of dots on his lower right shoulder in this shot, as well as a darker shaded area within a ring at the top of the shoulder. You can also see the dotted back line.


Not a good pattern shot, but it is a good color shot and he almost looks like an abby in it, as his pattern seems to disappear at this angle (except for the ticking).
post #9 of 27
He's a little like the other one, Church. I'm gonna go with mackeral tabby on this one. He seems to have more mackeral looking stripes then Church does. With the heavy ticking in the coat, he may have aby in the background.

I had a mackeral tabby, Mitten. But his stripes were not well defined and tended to "disappear" in the heavy ticking. With some other clues, I'm guessing that he had an aby in the mix somewhere.
post #10 of 27
Red Mac Tabby! NO breed but a handsome fella....
post #11 of 27
And I'd say he's red, pure and simple. Red cats almost always display "ghost patterns". Why do I think he's red?

1. The pattern is so very pale, on a distance you can barely see the pattern on his body.

2. He doesn't have the classical white tabby markings: white eye liners, white chin and white whisker pads.

This cat display all those typical tabby signs.
post #12 of 27
I think his markings are a bit too much for a plain red. I had 3 red kittens in my first rex litter. Mom was tortie; dad was black smoke (carrying classic tabby).

We got:
1 Deep red classic tabby male
1 Medium red mackeral tabby male
1 Pale red male - he had very faint striping but by the time he was about 3- 4 months old, it was apparent he was a true red; barely any markings at all.

Since we got a classic in the group, we found out that dad was a classic carrier cause he produced some other classic tabbys.

The medium red mackeral tabby was not that great on markings - sorta like the OP's kitty. So I think he's red mackeral tabby rather then a true red.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I think his markings are a bit too much for a plain red. I had 3 red kittens in my first rex litter. Mom was tortie; dad was black smoke (carrying classic tabby).
If non of the parents are tabby, non of the kittens could ever be tabby. A tortie and a black smoke simply can't produce tabby kittens. Agouti is a dominant gene so it can't be carried without being expressed.

In my first rex litter I had two red males. They looked spotted tabby but since non of the parents were tabby they couldn't be tabby.

Red vs. red tabby is very tricky. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference but my opinion on this particular cat is that it's a dead certain solid red. I don't see any signs if tabby, except from the ghost pattern (which by the way are much paler than the ghost pattern in my red boys who genetically couldn't be tabby).
post #14 of 27
I know who she was bred to - it was a black smoke and she was a tortie (not a patched tabby). And there were 6 kittens (3 red boys) and 2 tortie females and a black female.

I called up the breeder when I saw the classic markings. Lady's dad was a red mack tabby, so I assumed that any red males she had would be red mack tabbys. In subsequent litters (to red mctabbys or black/white) she still had red mctabby boys!

Tabby can be carried by a parent - you don't have to show it. If you say that it can't, then explain how you get a heck of a lot of black kittens with ghost tabby markings. Cause tabby gene is in there - showing or not. I think almost every cat is a tabby or a carrier. You have too much "ghost" tabby markings.

I've seen kittens from 2 black parents who had ghost markings - and in the background there are red or brown tabbys. I did a lot of research on pedigree with the colors. Most of the torties were from a red tabby parent and a black parent - they were not patched tabbys.
post #15 of 27
If you have seen many true tabbies after solid parents you have seen many miracles. Alternatively it's a faulty pedigree (much more common than we might think).

It's true not only that a cat may carry tabby, all cats carry tabby. Either ticked, mackerel, spotted or classic tabby. However this doesn't mean that two solid cats can produce tabby offspring. Why? Because of the agouti gene. The agouti gene is a dominant gene needed for the tabby pattern to be expressed. Of the parents has to carry the agouti gene in order for the offspring to become agouti and therefor ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby. A cat that carries agouti IS agouti=ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby.

That's the genetics of tabby patterns.

The carried tabby pattern IS the ghost pattern no matter what color the cat is. If the cat also is agouti it will be a ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby.
post #16 of 27
Ok then explain how my tortie and a black smoke produced a classic tabby with very dense markings. No doubt it was a classic - one of the darkest and best on a c. rex the judges had seen
post #17 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure that he's a solid...he looks solid in the last photo (the one where he's facing you) but the markings are more noticable in the shide shots..In person you can definately see the tabby markings all over, his pattern is just "blurry" (not clear) so the markings aren't as well defined.

In the case of his parents, the mother is a red/black/white tortoishell. Not suer on the dad though. His brother (black/white) did have tabby markings all over before his adult coat grew in, so I think the black is "covering" the tabby in his case.

Art
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Ok then explain how my tortie and a black smoke produced a classic tabby with very dense markings. No doubt it was a classic - one of the darkest and best on a c. rex the judges had seen
What color? Red classic tabby, brown classic tabby or any other classic tabby?
post #19 of 27
Isn't red in cats, as in the sex linked red always tabby? I.e it's genetically impossible to get a solid sex linked red cat. The ones who look mostly solid just have reaaally poor contrast on their markings so they blend in mostly.

I,e to quote

Quote:
A "solid red" cat will always display the tabby pattern (although it may be very slight or even undetectable without brushing the fur back to check). There's another gene at work which controls "agoutiness" (whether individual hairs are banded or solid). Cats who are non-agouti will not generally display the tabby pattern, except in red areas. The non-agouti gene does not affect phaeomelanin, the red pigment, so red cats always show their tabby pattern.
Which is how you'll get tortie or calico cats with solid black and then red tabby markings vs. patched tabby where the non-agouti gene is there to change the black into the tabby markings as well.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggav View Post
Isn't red in cats, as in the sex linked red always tabby? I.e it's genetically impossible to get a solid sex linked red cat. The ones who look mostly solid just have reaaally poor contrast on their markings so they blend in mostly.

I,e to quote



Which is how you'll get tortie or calico cats with solid black and then red tabby markings vs. patched tabby where the non-agouti gene is there to change the black into the tabby markings as well.
ALL cats carry tabby. Every single cat has got some tabby pattern: either it's ticked tabby, spotted tabby, mackerel tabby or classic tabby. Even a completely black cat's got a tabby pattern but since a black cat don't also carry the agouti gene the tabby pattern never shows (except from maybe as ghost patterns in the kitten).

Red cats (no matter if it's a tortie or a completly red/creme cat), because of the nature of pheomelanin, more or less always show ghost patterns. This does not qualify the cat as a genetic tabby. In order to be a genetic tabby the cat also has to be agouti, which means that the pattern is fully expressed.

Now it's important to differ phenotype from genotype. Some cat's got one genotype and another phenotype. White cats are the perfect example. Their phenotype is white but their genotype is white AND the color beneath the white.

It can be very hard, even impossible to tell if a cat is red or red tabby. If one parent indeed is agouti it's OK to say that the cat is red tabby. If the cat has two solid parents... the cat can't be agouti and therefor cannot have the genotype red tabby but the phenotype might be red tabby.

I don't know how TICA or CFA do, but in FIFé you will not be able to register an offspring from two solid cats as tabby since it's genetically impossible. In some cases a cat can be registred with both genotype and phenotype. Typically a solid blue cat that produce silver offspring with a non-silver cat (blue, silver and wide band is a story on itself).

So in order words: we have to separate the tabby patterns from the agouti gene (the gene that makes a cat a genetic tabby) and we have to separate genotype from phenotype.
post #21 of 27
Sol,

The classic tabby in that litter was a red - very deep red markings - and mom was the tortie / dad that black smoke. The only "tabbies" I ever got were red or cream (one cream tabby female)

Like I said in that litter there was a deep red classic tabby, a medium shade of mackeral tabby and a true red (faint mctabby pattern which disappeared when older).
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Sol,

The classic tabby in that litter was a red - very deep red markings - and mom was the tortie / dad that black smoke. The only "tabbies" I ever got were red or cream (one cream tabby female)

Like I said in that litter there was a deep red classic tabby, a medium shade of mackeral tabby and a true red (faint mctabby pattern which disappeared when older).
In that case it's easy. I'd explain it with them not being true tabbies. Genotype non-agouti, possibly agouti phenotype. As I said, it can be extremely hard to separate a solid from a tabby. Especially with Rex cats or DSH/DLH where color normally doesn't matter when a mating is done.

Quoting CFA on Feline genetics:

A dominant characteristic (all dominant colors and patterns such as shaded, smoke, white, tabby, bi-color, etc.) cannot skip generations. The characteristic cannot be transmitted from one generation to the next without showing that characteristic in each generation.

A cat displaying a dominant color (black, red, tortie, etc.) must have a parent which displays a dominant color (see #21).

Two recessive color parents (cream, blue, etc.) cannot produce an offspring of a dominant color (black, red, etc.). (My comment: two solid cats are genetically recessive for the agouti gene.)

All red cats will have some tabby markings. Whether or not a red can produce as a tabby will depend on whether it is a true tabby with a tabby or shaded parent or whether it is a red with ghost tabby markings and neither a tabby nor a shaded parent. A red tabby that is not a true tabby cannot produce a tabby offspring of any other color without being bred to a true tabby or a shaded.


Your red tabbies with a solid tortie and a solid black smoke cannot be anything else but red cats with ghost pattern however, the ghost pattern can be strong enough to be taken for true tabby. Genetically though, it's an impossible outcome.

There are true tabbies with very poor pattern too that are exposed as tabbies only when they're bred to say a solid blue or black cat and produce blue or brown tabby offspring.

Red vs. red tabby IS tricky, sometimes extremely tricky. If lucky you have a pedigree that reveals if tabby even is possible or not. In your case you have a pedigree that shows that tabby outcome is genetically impossible.
post #23 of 27
I know what you are saying, but this guy was classic tabby - very dominate and clear - there was no mistaking him for anything else. Even the judges remarked on his outstanding tabby markings and color.

Now I know that normal genetics are supposed to follow the rules. BUT I know of a case of a black BSH that was produced from 2 blue BSH - they were blue - not washed out blacks. CFA didn't want to register the kitten, but this BSH was a top breeder and there were NO other males owned at the time - one blue one. Mom was bred to that (mom was blue). I don't know what the outcome was, but genetically it was not supposed to be that way.

Also with my Ling - she (and siblings) were all born as blue tabbies/white - then changed to blue point with tabby markings and then to seal point with tabby markings (blue) - finally to black/white by 4-5 months old.

I've had several friends who are very into genetics try to explain that one and neither one can come up with it.

So genetics don't always hold true. You have that 1% that defies explanation

And the case with Godiva's Tobie (chocolate smoke ticked tabby) with a silver tabby sister - out of a blue scottish fold (not sure what the father was - I think brown or chocolate tabby. Tell me how that happened in the same litter
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I know what you are saying, but this guy was classic tabby - very dominate and clear - there was no mistaking him for anything else. Even the judges remarked on his outstanding tabby markings and color.
I'd still say it's a solid. One of those with phenotype agouti but with non-agouti genotype. Some cases are impossible to tell by only looking at the cat. This is why red is a pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Now I know that normal genetics are supposed to follow the rules. BUT I know of a case of a black BSH that was produced from 2 blue BSH - they were blue - not washed out blacks. CFA didn't want to register the kitten, but this BSH was a top breeder and there were NO other males owned at the time - one blue one. Mom was bred to that (mom was blue). I don't know what the outcome was, but genetically it was not supposed to be that way.
This I won't believe unless there's a DNA-test that confirms parenthood. I know of a "miracle white kitten" born in Sweden. Non of the parents were white. The breeder was of course a serious, well known breeder that were completely sure that the named father was the father. The registry made her DNA-test, sure enough... the named father wasn't the real father even though she was 100% sure of who the father was.

Yeah, I'm a sceptic. I've learned that faulty pedigrees are quite common and the further back you look... the bigger the risk for faults to appear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Also with my Ling - she (and siblings) were all born as blue tabbies/white - then changed to blue point with tabby markings and then to seal point with tabby markings (blue) - finally to black/white by 4-5 months old.
This one you've told about before and no, there's no logic explanation for this one. Some kind of strange pigmentation development, but it can't be compared to the red tabby case. I'm guessing the final outcome, black with white wasn't a genetically impossible outcome? It's "just" a funky color development in the kittens.

Red cats can have the phenotype of a red tabby without being genetically red tabby. That is well known and there's a scientific explanation to it so it's really nothing strange about it... reds with the phenotype red tabby that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
So genetics don't always hold true. You have that 1% that defies explanation
There are a few genetic mysteries, absolutely but the large majority of them have logic explanations and one very common is that breeders make false pedigrees (I know this statement bugs many breeders). Sometimes people simply don't determine right color in a cat and therefor get "impossible" outcome in a litter.

We have x-colors in the NFO, a mystery yet unsolved and there are genetic mutations, infections, toxic substances etc. might disturb the pigmentation development... but in most cases there are perfectly logic explanations. The laws of inheritance hold true in the large majority of cases. However, sometimes it's a lot funnier to believe a cat is a genetic miracle than that the breeder/owner has made a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
And the case with Godiva's Tobie (chocolate smoke ticked tabby) with a silver tabby sister - out of a blue scottish fold (not sure what the father was - I think brown or chocolate tabby. Tell me how that happened in the same litter
What is it that strange about this litter? The silver? There's an explanation for that.
post #25 of 27
The entire combination - the blue was not a smoke, yet Tobie is (and a chocolate ticked tabby too. Yes his dad was a tabby so that explains it, but where did the silver come from out of a brown or chocolate tabby and a blue?

And the BSH - there was only one male in the house - so there was no other possibility of the mom mating with another cat.

I do know that when researching the crex's pedigrees back to Kalibunker there were some wrong color combinations. But seriously, this guy I had was a classic tabby. You couldn't get any clearer color pattern if you tried And I will agree with you on the red/red tabby's with the rexes - I'm sure many of them were not real red tabbys (especially the mack ones)
post #26 of 27
There are many possibilities for these oddities even if the records were correct, including the possibility of a chimera. Only way to be sure would to do a genetic test, and if the cat's a chimera, you'd have to test the reproductive organs too just be sure. Still, most cases are likely human error.

I'm surprised the cat associations allow registration if a cat clearly defies genetics. It seems like they should allow registration in this case only if genetic testing is done and if the parent's registry is changed to reflect any coloring mistakes.
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
The entire combination - the blue was not a smoke, yet Tobie is (and a chocolate ticked tabby too. Yes his dad was a tabby so that explains it, but where did the silver come from out of a brown or chocolate tabby and a blue?
The explanation probably lies with the wideband gene/wideband genes. A very talented cat breeder explained to be that how "silvery" a cat is depends on the wideband gene/wideband genes (it's unclear if it's a wideband gene or if there are many wideband genes). No matter what, the degree of widebanding affects the silver effect in silver cats. Now, I know you're saying non of the parens are silver BUT a cat may be so very little "widebanded" that the silver never shows. Not until it's bred to a non-silver and produce silver offspring... the other cat might contribute with enough widebanding to make the silver show in the offspring that inherit silver.
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