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post #91 of 118
The fact that we're all trembling with fear to the point where we can't use reason and compassion is exactly the point of terrorism. Terrorism relies are terror.

We need to step back and find a way to deal with our problems that does not come from the point of fear and anger. One of the things I dislike most about the current administration is that they have used and cultivated fear to motivate us to fight a war that is totally useless and that has dragged us down morally, and economically, and has angered our enemies to the point that we are more vulnerable to being attacked than we were before 9/11. No clearer example of violence causing violence could be found than Iraq.

The 9/11 Commission Report made it clear that the hijackings could have been prevented if the Bush administration had followed up on clues collected by the FBI, CIA and airport screeners. They left us open to the attack, and then they capitalized on it with the resulting fear and anger it evoked.

There is no way you can talk me out of my belief in pacifism. It is an intuitive and gut thing with me. I'm not open to reason on the subject. Don't waste your time.
post #92 of 118
I was 17 years old when I enlisted in the National Guard. After I graduated from high scholl I shipped off to basic training and AIT. Six months after I graduated from AIT I went active duty. I knew when I first enlisted that there is always the possibility of having to go to war. Guess what? I ended up going to war.

I believe that Army has increased the age limit for prior service so vets can enlist. The age may be 42 now. I'll be 37 in January and would love to go back into Army for another four years but there is no way I would get past the physical with my bad back and colitis.
post #93 of 118
Ah, what happened to the time when we could debate the question at hand instead of playing the Seven Degrees of Dubbyah game????
post #94 of 118
Nobody is asking you to change your mind on pacifism - just disagreeing with it and stating their belief.

We can't go back before 9/11 - it just isn't going to happen so we have to move forward and do what we can. But as I have stated several times, the war with Iraq is not the only place troops are stationed and the military does have as much right to recruit as code pink do to protest
post #95 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
I believe that Army has increased the age limit for prior service so vets can enlist. The age may be 42 now. I'll be 37 in January and would love to go back into Army for another four years but there is no way I would get past the physical with my bad back and colitis.
Yes they have, and people who have served proudly before are doing so again.

And thanks for your service as well, Bryan.
post #96 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
The fact that we're all trembling with fear
The 9/11 Commission Report made it clear that the hijackings could have been prevented if the Bush administration had followed up on clues collected by the FBI, CIA and airport screeners. They left us open to the attack, and then they capitalized on it with the resulting fear and anger it evoked.

There is no way you can talk me out of my belief in pacifism. It is an intuitive and gut thing with me. I'm not open to reason on the subject. Don't waste your time.
err, what? that makes no sense, to be ready to fight back is not fear,
si vis pacem, para bellum
covers that

9/11 could have been prevented by bill clinton doing his job before. Etc Etc ETC..

pacifism is nice idea. It just does not work.
post #97 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...ors&id=4722401

This is an article that reports the kind of abuses the military has used in recruiting young men and women. Teen-agers brains haven't even finished developing when they are making this life-and-death choice.

If Americans thought this war was worth fighting and dying for, they would be signing up for it. Not everyone thinks the military life is a good one.
LOL, I thought this was recruiting for Marine OFFICER'S School. I may be wrong but I thought they took College Graduates, not "teen-agers"

Be that as it may, teen agers are allowed to drive, vote and drink alcohol,.

Not everyone thinks the military life is a good one, but we wouldn't be free if we didn't have a strong one.
post #98 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
There is no way you can talk me out of my belief in pacifism. It is an intuitive and gut thing with me. I'm not open to reason on the subject. Don't waste your time.
I, for one, had no intention of trying to change your mind. But I do think that belief in pacifism to the point of denial isn't healthy. Feel free to believe and practice your pacifism, but remember that you are doing so safely held to the bosom of a vast, national military machine. Anywhere in California, you are within 20 miles of something nuclear and military. As I type this, an unmarked, unremarkable railway car is carrying military cargo through Anytown, USA. There are at least 200 interceptor aircraft in the air somewhere in the world. About 10% of them are actually on their way to investigate an unknown contact. A large number of the aircraft used to fight the California wildfires last fall were military. In December of last year, the USS Ronald Reagan abruptly departed a training zone and made way at full speed all through the night on a mission of mercy. A young American girl on a cruise ship was deathly ill, will proper medical care days away. The R. Reagans SeaHawk helicopter was there at dawn the next day.

General Patton once said, "No one hates war like a warrior". All those men and women in uniform would be so grateful if love conquered all; but they will be there and they will be ready when it does not.
post #99 of 118
*raises hand* Just a question: Since when does opposing the Iraq war, on which there are several (SEVERAL!) sources that argue this was a totally uneccessary war for us to spend lives and resources on, translate to "hating the military"?

To be 100% honest, I have no idea whether I'm a pacifist 100% of the time. I'd really love to think that we could solve our problems civilly, but I don't know if such a system will ever, or could ever, exist. It seems like such a remote possibility since we can hardly be nice to the people in front of us at the grocery store. I also don't know enough about history or historical policy or military history...nor do I know when we all started to hate and fear each other. What I *DO* know, having a DH who studies this stuff for a living, is that Iraq is somewhere we DID NOT need to be, and there's a large body of evidence and a vast majority of people around the world to support this. THIS WAR is what Code Pink is against, war as the default answer and predominant instrument of foreign policy is what Code Pink is against, and the needless waste of young life is what Code Pink is against. I, for one, have worked with this group and World Can't Wait (which is a HIGHLY more aggressive and radical group) and admire their ideology in terms of THIS particular war. Does that make me less of an American? I don't think so. I'm simply exercising the right which our founding fathers found so important that they protected in the very document which frames the being of our union. I also don't need to see any more of my peers coming home in body bags for a totally questionable war.
post #100 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
. . This is because the military has to maintain discipline. If people did as they pleased all of the time while in the service there would be no order. Without order there is no cohesion. When you aren't on duty you're free to pretty much do what you want.
oh this why i got kicked out
post #101 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post

Be that as it may, teen agers are allowed to drive, vote and drink alcohol,.
Actually you've brought up a good point. Teenagers aren't allowed to drink. We, as a society, have decided that people aren't old enough to make decisions about drinking until they're 21, and yet they're allowed to fight and die for our country. Perhaps more of an argument for lowering the drinking age than raising the enlistment age.

Also, recruiters go after kids way before they're 18. They start in on you when you're about 16 and they don't stop for at least 6 more.

I remember a case when I was at Kent of a veteran who wanted the recruiters out of our campus. http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...0/dave_airhart What do you have to say to him? Does he hate America too? Is he a traitor too?

I fully admire anyone, and with gratitude, who decides to enlist. My dad was in the military, some of my friends are now. It isn't about hating the military the way it was during Vietnam. In many of the people who are anti-thiswar, it is because they would hate to see someone they love die in a war that doesn't and never did make sense.
post #102 of 118
[quote=ckblv;2163444]LOL, I thought this was recruiting for Marine OFFICER'S School. I may be wrong but I thought they took College Graduates, not "teen-agers"

Be that as it may, teen agers are allowed to drive, vote and drink alcohol,.

quote]

The argument for lowering the voting age to 18 was that young men and women were fighting and dying at that age.

Our low age for driving is because we were such a rural country when people began to drive and teens were needed to help out on the farm and drive the pick-ups, etc.
post #103 of 118
post #104 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by catcaregiver View Post
Hmmm.... so again, their agenda is to protest the way, not the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.....

Sounds like they were hoping for support from the people behind that cause without actually telling them their agenda was to protest the war.... the City Coucil is at least revisiting their erroneous decision.
post #105 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
I LOVE it. Where did you read that? That says it all. Cowards, one and all in the City of Berkley City Council.

I found it on a site that showed pictures of a Code Pink protest at the Berkeley Marine Recruiting Office in 2007.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
It is very possible to be against the war and the methods of military recruiting and not be against all military personnel.

What "methods" are you referring to, the ones in the article you posted regarding what some recruiters in New York and New Jersey were using? This thread is about the Marine Recruiting Office in Berkeley California.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
I disagree with John Mills quote. Violence will never make us safe because it will never create a peaceful world. Violence creates more violence. Only love can turn away violence. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Should we have continued to sit on our hands after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
Teen-agers brains haven't even finished developing when they are making this life-and-death choice.

This is an interesting argument since so many people of your political persuasion think it's perfectly fine for teenagers (even younger than 18) to make the choice to get birth control and have abortions without the consent of their parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
Not everyone thinks the military life is a good one.
That's true, I decided the military life wasn't for me but I don't know what that has to do with anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave
I'll take the Marines and their weapons against a shield of hearts and flowers. Love has its place, but when others hate you with every fiber of their being, you have to be willing to fight

You've got that right!
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
and has angered our enemies to the point that we are more vulnerable to being attacked than we were before 9/11. No clearer example of violence causing violence could be found than Iraq.

Oh really? How many times have we been attacked since 9/11? We were attacked many times before 9/11 though. Or have you forgotten? Here are a few examples:
1993 World Trade Center bombing.
1995 U.S. Military Complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia is Bombed
1996 Khobar Towers in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia are Bombed

1998 U.S. Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania are Bombed

2000 USS Cole Bombed


Terrorists had plenty of hatred for us before we went into Iraq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
They left us open to the attack, and then they capitalized on it with the resulting fear and anger it evoked.

I hope you're not one of those loony 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by essayons89
I was 17 years old when I enlisted in the National Guard. After I graduated from high scholl I shipped off to basic training and AIT. Six months after I graduated from AIT I went active duty. I knew when I first enlisted that there is always the possibility of having to go to war. Guess what? I ended up going to war.

I was 17 when I signed up to join the Army in their "delayed entry" program. I couldn't go active duty until I was 18. The day after my 18th birthday the recruiter came and picked me up. I knew that joining the Army meant that I could have to go to war. The military doesn't exist just to give people job training and college tuition, and anybody who doesn't know that is a fool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^=
There is no way you can talk me out of my belief in pacifism. It is an intuitive and gut thing with me. I'm not open to reason on the subject. Don't waste your time.

I don't think anybody here is trying to talk you out of your belief in pacifism. I only see people pointing out the naivety and foolishness of it. It would be nice if you and others realized and acknowledged that you are able to freely practice and express your beliefs because of people such as myself who do not believe in pacifism.


People can protest and complain about the Iraq war all they want. They have that right. They can call it "Bush's War" even though many Democrats also thought Saddam Hussein had WMDs and Congress gave its consent to go into Iraq. The fact is, we're there; and when I read that women of Code Pink are shouting things like "they just want to train you to be baby killers" and "you're nothing but cannon fodder" at young men and women who are trying to enter the Berkeley Marine Recruiting Office simply to explore their option of a military career, it makes my blood boil.


post #106 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Actually you've brought up a good point. Teenagers aren't allowed to drink. We, as a society, have decided that people aren't old enough to make decisions about drinking until they're 21, and yet they're allowed to fight and die for our country. Perhaps more of an argument for lowering the drinking age than raising the enlistment age.

Also, recruiters go after kids way before they're 18. They start in on you when you're about 16 and they don't stop for at least 6 more.

I remember a case when I was at Kent of a veteran who wanted the recruiters out of our campus. http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...0/dave_airhart What do you have to say to him? Does he hate America too? Is he a traitor too?

I fully admire anyone, and with gratitude, who decides to enlist. My dad was in the military, some of my friends are now. It isn't about hating the military the way it was during Vietnam. In many of the people who are anti-thiswar, it is because they would hate to see someone they love die in a war that doesn't and never did make sense.
Ummm, it was the Pinkies that called the Marines traitors, not the other way around. Just wanted to clear that up.

Be against the war in Iraq all you want, no one is saying you can't be. But DON'T disrespect the military by saying they are traitors. I see many defending the Pinks but those that are say nothing about the disrespectful way they are treating the recruiters so I am thinking that you think that is okay.

Be a pacifist all you want but our strong military is the ONLY reason you are free to be a pacifist. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
post #107 of 118
Thread Starter 
Catcaregiver, GREAT point about birth control and abortions. Funny how that works, isn't it? It is okay for kids to have the freedom to get abortion but not to enlist in the military.
post #108 of 118
I don't agree with any of the things they are doing that are not peaceful protest, but I didn't mention it because I figured we all agreed, not because I condoned it. I also don't agree with anybody who says anything bad about the enlisted men and women, as a whole.

The idea that people should be deported for what Code Pink does seemed like a more dire thing to respond to though.

And you've called the women in Code Pink any number of things (unamerican, despicable, blahblahblah standard liberal insults) so forgive me for assuming you calle dthem traitors at some point, and pretend I asked the question with any of the other things you did say instead of that one word.
post #109 of 118
Thread Starter 
[quote=katie=^..^=;2163841]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
LOL, I thought this was recruiting for Marine OFFICER'S School. I may be wrong but I thought they took College Graduates, not "teen-agers"

Be that as it may, teen agers are allowed to drive, vote and drink alcohol,.

quote]

The argument for lowering the voting age to 18 was that young men and women were fighting and dying at that age.

Our low age for driving is because we were such a rural country when people began to drive and teens were needed to help out on the farm and drive the pick-ups, etc.
But, THIS recruiting office is going after college grads NOT teenagers, so doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the "kid" argument.
post #110 of 118
Thread Starter 
I did not call them unamerican and I called their ACTIONS despicable. I stand by that 1000%

Edited to add, I am glad you said you don't condone the hideous way they are treating the recruiters.
post #111 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I am ashamed to call them Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
They are doing EXACTLY the same thing those nuts from WBC do. Real nice group, typical for Berkley I would say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think they should call in the National Guard to put the run on the Pinkies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
What a joke they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Cowards, one and all in the City of Berkley City Council.
Replace the word 'traitor' with any of the above things you have said about them, and please answer the question rather than debating about what you said.
post #112 of 118
It is a very different thing IMO to want recruiters off a campus and out of a whole city. A campus is private property and they have that right, the same as they have the right to ask non students to leave if they cause a problem on campus. You follow campus rules as well as the local laws on a campus.

The Marines are not breaking any laws by paying rent on a leased space (which the City of Berkeley are happy to collect tax on) and recruiting. No one has discussed anything about them recruiting illegally, just their policies on gays and the war in general.
post #113 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Replace the word 'traitor' with any of the above things you have said about them, and please answer the question rather than debating about what you said.
Just as I thought I didn't call them traitors, and I stand by what I DID say about them.
post #114 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Actually you've brought up a good point. Teenagers aren't allowed to drink. We, as a society, have decided that people aren't old enough to make decisions about drinking until they're 21, and yet they're allowed to fight and die for our country. Perhaps more of an argument for lowering the drinking age than raising the enlistment age.

Also, recruiters go after kids way before they're 18. They start in on you when you're about 16 and they don't stop for at least 6 more.

I remember a case when I was at Kent of a veteran who wanted the recruiters out of our campus. http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...0/dave_airhart What do you have to say to him? Does he hate America too? Is he a traitor too?

I fully admire anyone, and with gratitude, who decides to enlist. My dad was in the military, some of my friends are now. It isn't about hating the military the way it was during Vietnam. In many of the people who are anti-thiswar, it is because they would hate to see someone they love die in a war that doesn't and never did make sense.
This Dude is NOT against the military, he is against THIS war, big difference.
Plus the fact that this guys has walked the walk.
post #115 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
This Dude is NOT against the military, he is against THIS war, big difference.
Plus the fact that this guys has walked the walk.
Thanks, I was wondering where you would draw the line. If Code Pink could be peaceful, would what they do be okay as well? These questions are for everyone btw! I can see how some of Code Pink's actions could be construed as anti-military, however I haven't seen anyone say anything anti-military here. Anti-thiswar, yes, anti-allwar, yes, but even some pacifists will agree that we need a military even if there is no war for them to fight in.

As for this dude, he was forcibly removed from the climbing wall by a recruiter and, according to some, assaulted both verbally and physically. He was then fined, charged with disorderly conduct, and threatened with expulsion.

If you consider events like these, you might begin to realize that wanting recruiters out of your town isn't necessarily about the military at all, and that you can dislike things about them while knowing that it doesn't necessarily reflect on the rest of the military.

At a time when we are severely under in the numbers we need in the military, and recruiters missing and missing and missing their quotas, their tactics may be questionable.

They are salespeople, telemarketers as well, who are selling teenagers on a life in the military. If the Berkeley city council kicked out another sales company or telemarketing group, would anyone be up in arms? I doubt it. Most of us delete spam, throw out junk mail, don't listen to telemarketers, and yet somehow when we want something we still know how to get it. If people want to join the marines, they still can.
post #116 of 118
Thread Starter 
The United States Marine Corps is not another "sales company", good grief, they are what gives you your freedom and you lump them in with telemarketers. I'm aghast.
post #117 of 118
Unbelievable. Now recruiters are being called "salespeople and telemarketers". Can't wait to see what's next.
post #118 of 118
As many of the posts in this thread have become repetitive, and little in the way of constructive debate is now being held, a decision has been reached by the moderating team to close it.
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