Yet another trip to the vet and this time, a different diagnosis...

artgecko

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So, we went back to the vet because Toby's self-grooming has gotten a lot worse. The bald patches are larger, etc.

This time we got to see Dr. F. (the one that usually sees all the cats and saw us when Toby had seizures, etc.) instead of Dr. C. who we saw last time.

For those that didn't read my last post, during the previous visit Dr. C. said that the over-grooming was probably due to a flea allergy. I have since made sure that he's gotten his flea meds on time and I have stopped using a new litter that I was trying at the time.

This time around, Dr. F. said that most of the time over-grooming is a result of a food allergy. and suggested trying an allergy diet and if that doesn't work to look at environmental allergies, etc.

Instead of getting the RX SD diet or going with cal. natural, I'm going to try him on his old food (nutro nat. choice) and see what happens. NC shares several ingredients with EVO (mainly chicken) so if he shows a reaction to it, then I'll know it's probably because he's developed an allergy to chicken. If he doesn't show a reaction to it, then I'll know it's one of the "suspect ingredients" that EVO has and NC does not.

I have a couple of questions for you guys (those with allergy experience):
1. Do you think trying the old food (that he had no problems on) first is a good idea?

2. Which of these ingredients (from EVO that NC doesn't have) is the most likely allergin IYO? "Turkey, Herring Meal (oil too), Potatoes, Apples" (my money is on the herring, which I hate since natura's other canned foods also have herring oil in them)

Thanks again for your help!
Art
 

sharky

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POTATO ... it is quickly causing trouble in many dogs and cats with so many foods putting it in ... fish meal of any kind can be ... the oil less likely as technically oil is ALL FAT and NO protein and allergies are protein based ... I do have a oil allergic dog

try it I am sure the ingrediants are better IMHO than SD Z/D
 

misskiwi67

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Why not try a new limited antigen diet, such as a royal canin green pea and venison, or green pea and duck? These diets are highly palatable, and if your kitty DOES have a food allergy, you'll see results much more quickly.
 
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artgecko

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I'm trying the old food mainly to rule out chicken as the allergin. If he improves on the old food, I will probably switch him over to cal. natural. chicken/rice dry.

I have the EVO canned (and cal natural) canned foods and they all have the herring OIL in them, so if this food works out (and his condition improves) I'll feed him a serving of the canned food to see if he shows a reaction to the oil, if not, we'll play the process of elimination from there (may even mash up some potato to add to the wet food and see if he shows a reaction if it comes to that).

I have heard that green peas can be an allergen as well, so I'd like to avoid those. I thought about the cal. natural herring/sweet potato, but again, it's got herring in it, so that could be the allergin (it does not have potato, only sweet potato, so if potato is the culprit, that might be an option).

I hate having to switch him back to the old food and foods with more carbs than EVO due to his weight, but I don't think there's a grain free that does not include potato and/or fish meal of some kind. I guess it will all depend on whether it's the potato or herring.

Any new food (not available locally) is a big gamble for me as well, because I can only get them shipped to me, so very expensive to try different diets, if he will eat them, etc. He's tried the cal natural chkn/rice before and ate it, so that is a valid option for me to order online if he shows no signs of reaction to the old food which has chicken.

The vet didn't give me a timeline on how long it will be before I see an improvement. Any suggustions? I was thinking about 2 weeks on the old food and see if the bald spots get better so that I can order the cal natural at the same time that I'm ordering the EVO for the kittens. . . Would that be too soon to tell if he is improving?

Thanks!
Art
 

sharky

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severe allergies.. a few days for Some improvement ... moderate to mild allergies could be weeks
 

laurag

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Interesting! I didn't know potato was starting to cause problems in cats.

My cat Scooter has this issue. He had a big spot on his left side for weeks that no matter what I did, he'd keep licking the area and keeping it raw.

I had switched their food to EVO, oddly enough.

I did the same thing where I moved them back to Avoderm, which was their old food. His wound got better, but since that time, he's developed several smaller lick wounds.

He's always been a super groomer. IF he isn't grooming himself, he's finding one of the others to groom. I thought maybe it might be an OCD issue.

I've read some about this issue and what I know is that it is stubborn. I do use the R-7 antiseptic pads on his wounds which seems to help with the itchy sensations that encourage him to lick. Then I put the pain relieving lotion on it. This regimen seemed to help before, so I'm doing it again.

The question that remains unanswered is why he's having the problem in the first place. I've read some that fish is also a possible allergy problem. The avoderm has herring in it. It could be that cats are developing allergies to foods more quickly now.

It's maddening. With this group of cats, I've tried to do the right thing and feed them higher quality food with fewer carbs and no by-products. I have two fat cats, one with asthma and this one with the skin issues. One is normal. My kitten won't eat much and I've only fed her the high quality kitten food that doesn't thrill her. The only way I can get her to eat any of it is to mix it with human baby food chicken or turkey.

My cat Hazel lived nearly 19 years eating Purina One, Fancy Feast and Friskies--the alleged axis of evil of by product and carbs. She was the right weight, strong, active, long-lived.
 

mschauer

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Originally Posted by artgecko

Instead of getting the RX SD diet or going with cal. natural, I'm going to try him on his old food (nutro nat. choice) and see what happens. NC shares several ingredients with EVO (mainly chicken) so if he shows a reaction to it, then I'll know it's probably because he's developed an allergy to chicken.
If he is exhibiting the problem before changing the food and still exhibits it after changing food that doesn't actually tell you anything for sure, right? The same thing would happen if the problem weren't food related at all.
 

misskiwi67

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EVERYTHING can be an allergen!! By going back to the old food, you are continuing to expose him to several possible allergens.

Yes, the green peas are POSSIBLE, but not if your cat has never eaten it! It takes time and exposure to develop an allergy.

As the owner of a food allergic dog, I can GUARRANTEE you'll have better luck with a limited antigen diet food trial if you cat is truly food allergic. If you don't, all you're doing is guessing, and I know from experience that even best guesses are often wrong, and you just end up confusing yourself in the long run. I had to see a veterinary dermatologist several times to finally figure out what Romeo was allergic to... there was not a single thing I thought he was allergic to that he turned out to be actually allergic to! I wasted months in the process with my guessing games.
 

sharky

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I do agree with limited diets ... Is your vet willing to bring in RC diets for you?? IMHO they are better than SD ...

Did he have issues prior to EVO ...??
 
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artgecko

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No he did not, and he did not have problems until he had been on the EVO for about 1 month. It is the only "new" thing (other than if it's a seasonal thing) that was still currently occuring as of a couple of days ago... So unless it's seasonal, it would have to be the food because nothing else has changed.

If I switch him to a specialized allergin diet, what are my options other than SD? I can't use either of the cal. naturals (if it can have no ingredients that are the same as EVO or Nat. Choice). If it is most likely NOT chicken (as he had that in the Nat. choice for about 7 months with no symptoms until we started EVO) then I can feed him the cal. natural chkn/rice.

here's the ingredients list for natural balance duck/pea:

Peas, Duck Meal, Duck, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Methionine, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Potassium Iodide, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B).

I don't think any are the same as EVO or nat. choice. Both of their canned allergy formulas have salmon OIL in them, so I guess those would be off limits?

Royal canin lists these as their allergy diets but does not have the ingredients list available:
Green pea / duck
Green pea / venison
Green pea / lamb
Green pea / rabbit

My vet carries SD in house so I don't think she'd order the RC diets for me... I think I can get them on petfooddirect, but not sure.
I *might* be able to get the natural balance in town, (petco carries it) but they don't have a wide product range so they may not have it in house and Toby was not crazy about the natural balance (regular formula) that I had a sample of a few months back, so not sure if he'd eat it.

Thanks for your help!
Art
 

misskiwi67

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The natural balance foods are excellent... I feed romeo the canine duck and potato formula.

Once you start feeding the food, you have to feed ONLY THAT FOOD for a minimum of 12 weeks before making judgements about how well the food is working.

Oils are generally not a problem, so I wouldn't worry about the salmon oil yet. Its last on a long list of possible issues.

Lastly, has your vet looked for demodex cati?
 
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artgecko

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She checked for ringworm and said he was ok after waiting ~ 3 weeks for the culture to develope.

She hasn't mentioned mange (either of the vets) so I'd think that they would at least mention if it looked like a possibility. We have 3 other cats in the house now, so I think it would have spread to the others if that was what it was (correct)?

I may try the duck/green pea then. It's too bad that petsmart doesn't carry it as I could try it and return the uneaten portion if he wouldn't touch it.

Art
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by artgecko

She checked for ringworm and said he was ok after waiting ~ 3 weeks for the culture to develope.

She hasn't mentioned mange (either of the vets) so I'd think that they would at least mention if it looked like a possibility. We have 3 other cats in the house now, so I think it would have spread to the others if that was what it was (correct)?

I may try the duck/green pea then. It's too bad that petsmart doesn't carry it as I could try it and return the uneaten portion if he wouldn't touch it.

Art
DO you have a petco ?? Natural balence make s a duck and pea or pea and dubk
 
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artgecko

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I do have a petco, I was just referring to a better return policy at petsmart (which doesn't carry natural balance) verses the one at petco. . .

Art
 

misskiwi67

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Originally Posted by artgecko

She checked for ringworm and said he was ok after waiting ~ 3 weeks for the culture to develope.

She hasn't mentioned mange (either of the vets) so I'd think that they would at least mention if it looked like a possibility. We have 3 other cats in the house now, so I think it would have spread to the others if that was what it was (correct)?

I may try the duck/green pea then. It's too bad that petsmart doesn't carry it as I could try it and return the uneaten portion if he wouldn't touch it.

Art
The mange is the same as demodex in the dog. Its not spread from one cat to the next, but from mother to kittens. Most cats have the mite, but when there is a problem with the immune system, the mite can get out of control and cause folliculitis, which is EXTREMELY itchy and results in over-grooming.
 

sharky

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FYI ... Natural Balence garentees there product ... Your Petco should be just like Petsmart with reguards to food returns ( the three here have the same policy _ 100% satifaction or bring it back
 
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artgecko

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Ok, revised plan... I'll keep him on the food he's eating now (already switched him to his old diet) until Saturday and then I can see if my petco carries the green pea/duck. I'll get a bag if they have it and, if he will eat it, I'll get enough for him to be on it for at least 2 months. At that point, I should be able to tell if he is getting better or not.

Based on those results, I should be able to tell if it's a food allergy or not. If he improves on the NB, then I can introduce single ingredients (i.e. chicken, potato, etc.) and see what he has a reaction to?

Here's a couple of questions for you...

1. NB also makes a canned version of duck/green pea and has a venison / green pea. If both of those are free of any of the ingredients in his old foods, could I feed him the canned of either to supplement the dry NB? I think this might be helpful when trying to mix in ingredients (i.e. chicken, etc). He also has a weight problem, so anytime I can work in wet food is good.

2. When I get to that point, could I use the cal. natural "herring/sweet potato" dry food as a test for a reaction to fish when I get to that point, as there aren't any "herring" canned cat foods around, that I know about that I could use instead? And, if he is NOT allergic to the herring would this dry be acceptable as a permanant dry food for him (I wasn't sure about all the fish)?

Thanks!
Art
 

sharky

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1. FINE .. IMHO a great idea

2. I think has barley which IMHO is too close to wheat for a possbile allergic cat..
 

iluvdevons

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Ares has had major issues with food allergies (allergies are REALLY frustrating I might add). He has had the best results with:
Dry: NB Duck and Peas (I give dry sparingly - prefer to feed wet)
Wet: EVO 95% Venison, EVO 95% Duck, NB venison and peas, NB duck and peas
I also highly recommend that you consider adding a probiotic of some sort to his food, as it can really help. I personally use PetEnzymes for a probiotic and digestive enzymes, but I know there are a ton of great products out there.

I can tell you that he was originally on regular Innova EVO when he first showed signs of allergies, so the regular EVO should be avoided.
Personally, I really like the EVO 95% meat, it has not only improved his allergies (stools firm, no missing fur behind ears, almost no ear wax) but his activity levels have increased and his fur is really shiny and soft. I hope you find something that will work for you - good luck!
 
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