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Born out of Wedlock? - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I don't see a "piece of paper" making a big difference in any relationship with perhaps the exception that some men believe it gives them the right to abuse the woman.
there is no paper needed for that. It would happen in any long term or short term.
post #32 of 45
i think the biggest difference in perspective of marriage first being preferable among those of us who are US citizens is that, regardless of the religious beliefs of any US citizen, the country was originally founded on Christian religious mores. even tho many citizens no longer consider themselves Christian, the Judeo-Christian moral code is still very pervasive in our society. we've fallen far [as a culture] from what would be considered moral by Biblical standard. but the average person would still consider it best to marry before having children, just as they would say that infidelity is wrong, murder is wrong, cruelty [like spousal or child abuse, etc.] is wrong - these are all originally based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. even the Declaration of Independence refers to it:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

even in other countries, the far reach of the original Roman Catholic church has left signs. just think of the Holy Roman Empire - spanned many of the European countries of today. it's hard for the US to even fathom the age of European culture, tho. we're such a young country, compared to much of the world.
post #33 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
i think the biggest difference in perspective of marriage first being preferable among those of us who are US citizens is that, regardless of the religious beliefs of any US citizen, the country was originally founded on Christian religious mores. even tho many citizens no longer consider themselves Christian, the Judeo-Christian moral code is still very pervasive in our society. we've fallen far [as a culture] from what would be considered moral by Biblical standard. but the average person would still consider it best to marry before having children, just as they would say that infidelity is wrong, murder is wrong, cruelty [like spousal or child abuse, etc.] is wrong - these are all originally based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. even the Declaration of Independence refers to it:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

even in other countries, the far reach of the original Roman Catholic church has left signs. just think of the Holy Roman Empire - spanned many of the European countries of today. it's hard for the US to even fathom the age of European culture, tho. we're such a young country, compared to much of the world.
Actually all the things you are referencing have been tenets of religions created well before there was ever Christianity. Also, nothing about "their Creator" in the Declaration of Independence indicates specifically believing in the Christian God. Instead, I find that term to be specifically worded so as to not be associated with any particular dogma, but rather inclusive of all beliefs.

However I will agree that one's religious beliefs will often dictate how one feels about children out of wedlock and how they treat women who are single mothers (positively or negatively).

Siggav, I find your post really interesting because of a completely different study but one that I think directly impacts why there is such a difference in acceptance between say the U.S and Iceland.

Two weeks ago on 20/20 I think it was ( maybe 60 minutes) there was a great story on what makes a place happy. Below is a link to an article that talks about this study.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n16651517

What was found was that Denmark was in the lead, followed closely by Switzerland, Austria and Iceland.

When they talked about Denmark in particular what they found was that the Danes were as a culture 90% native Dane, and 80% Lutheran. They had very little narcissistic or materialistic tendencies. They had equality in job status ( ie. Garbage men are held in high esteem and had equal pay as other occupations., The Danish Prince is actually a carpenters apprentice because he enjoys it and it is the way he wishes to make his living). They pay taxes at a rate of 63% I believe it was, but they also have consistent quality governmental support for health care, and other necessities that we in the US often lack.

Because of being of the same beliefs and nationality they trust each other, have a sense of belonging to all and there is very little crime. They showed strollers lined up outside an eating establishment while the parents were inside. That would get people arrested here in the US and most people would never even consider such a thing for fear their baby would be stolen.

All in all they are well provided for and have a good sense of belonging and community. It sounds like Iceland has a culture and environment that fosters the same wellbeing and belonging.

Here in the US (which ranked 23 in the study) there is a lack of such a feeling for the Nation as a whole, but does exists within sub-cultures. In fact there has been a widening gap nationally that is really getting out of control. People are becoming further and further divided based on race, religion, political doctrine and economic status. This disconnectedness creates an environment that is judgmental in nature as a whole.

Someone else pointed out that out of wedlock children in this country tend to be born to poorer persons...which I don't know if statistically that is true. However, it is certainly how it is perceived. Thus another "welfare mother or welfare baby". These terms were coined to be negative in connotation. Initially they were used to denote women who kept having babies to get more governmental money to buy drugs. One of the most famous cases that made the national news was the apartment where 14 young children belonging to 3 women were found. They were eating their own feces and living in absolutely inhumane conditions. The moms used all their government money to buy crack.

Teen pregnancy is also very high here. Associated with the Teen pregnancy is what is being portrayed as the "new trend" in the poorly educated, economically depressed population of having "Baby Daddies" (This particular population also happens to be portrayed as being a high percentage of African American and Hispanic decent, so racism also comes into play). This term originally came about from unwed teens talking about..."well my baby's daddy said so and so". This is also associated with what people refer to as the "gang banger" or "gansta" sub cultures, which are thought to be associated with rap music.

Can you see all the assumptions, stereotypes and intolerance that is subtly going on as an undercurrent in this country? So while religion certainly plays some part, it isn't the only part, at least not in this day and age. In the 1950's religion, especially among Catholics, played a large part in the stigma of unwed pregnancies.

As has been pointed out already, there is the group that says out of wedlock is bad because there is only one parent and a child needs guidance from both male and female role models. This is very true, however as Zissou's Mom pointed out it really has more to do with how involved the individual parents are and nothing to do with if they are married. The show Super Nanny is a perfect example of how married couples are failing their children big time in this country. People in this country seem to have become so absorbed in making a living and "keeping up with the Jones's" that actual parenting is ceasing to exist.

What you have stated indicates that Icelanders, although they may not be married they are devoted to being parents. That really is the key.

Ok, I think I may have gotten completely off topic now. I hope some of this actually makes sense as to what you were asking.
post #34 of 45
the below link, will give you the rate of teens based on race.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

If you break it down more based on Income. lower income, higher rate. higher income + Education = lower birth right

its not a "new trend" unless we are still calling something new that started 30 years ago when i was kid iceland is much smaller country then the US. what works there may or may not work here.

Also i think here it depends on the age of the people? if it was a long term couple that already had set up house keeping, I really cant see to many people even noticing it.
post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittymonsters View Post
Also, nothing about "their Creator" in the Declaration of Independence indicates specifically believing in the Christian God. Instead, I find that term to be specifically worded so as to not be associated with any particular dogma, but rather inclusive of all beliefs.


The writers of the US Declaration of Independence were, if not pure supporters Deism, at least likely to been have heavily influenced by it. Thus, the word Creator does not probably/necessarily refer to the Christian God by default.

Sorry about this complete thread hijack. To make amend:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98
iceland is much smaller country then the US. what works there may or may not work here.
I can't see why not. Large masses of people just need to be divided into effective-sized units. I understand state governments have a more important role than the federal govenrment in many things, why wouldn't they work as a base?
post #36 of 45
I'm still dazzling over so few teen pregnancies!! Man, that would be great here!

My 2 cents....if they're properly caring for the child & loving it....who cares if they're married or not.
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
My 2 cents....if they're properly caring for the child & loving it....who cares if they're married or not.
Its as simple as that. Whatever happens is okay if it is in the childrens best interest.

I don't see how people not being married has any effect on why they should or shouldn't have children.
post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
the below link, will give you the rate of teens based on race.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

If you break it down more based on Income. lower income, higher rate. higher income + Education = lower birth right
That has everything to do with high income = greater access to abortions and birth control and better schools with more sex ed. lower income = no way to afford abortions or birth control and poor schools with little or no sex ed, as a general rule.

And, I grew up in the bible belt of the midwest in a VERYVERY conservative, protestant dominated suburb and I heard tales of girls and their families "taking care of it" (i.e. having an abortion) allllllllllll the time, which would lead me to believe it's income, not morals, that drive the birthrate amongst teens in an area. If these things were morally driven, then most of the kids who take chastity pledges wouldn't break them, while the truth is, they do. All the time.

As to the original topic, I will agree 110% with Julie (Zissou'sMom). It's about the prevailing custom in the country in question. There is no singular moral standard on this planet.
post #39 of 45
I can't post a site for this. I have heard that it is the boys with the highest self-confidence and the girls with the lowest that have sex the youngest. Just a thought.

The best way to end teen pregnancies -- besides making birth control available -- is to improve the education and financial opportunites of girls. I can probably find sites with this information if anyone wants to argue it.
post #40 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post

The best way to end teen pregnancies -- besides making birth control available -- is to improve the education and financial opportunites of girls. I can probably find sites with this information if anyone wants to argue it.
I won't argue this with you. I know too well how lack of resources and self-esteem can limit a young girl's options.
post #41 of 45
yea low self-esteem can play a very big role.
post #42 of 45
I think if you and your partner are deeply in love, and see eachother being a couple till the day you die, then i don't think you need that certificate, or the validation of others to make it any less real. I'm talking about mature, adult relationships, not teens who get pregnant from a one night stand.

There is so much taboo about sex before marriage, living in sin, parents of adult children shaming them for having kids in a stable but un married relationship. I really think these parents should stick their nose somewhere else.

Tristan and i are in a deep and commited relationship. And though we'll get married one day, a child might come before or after. And i'm certainly not having a highly religious ceremony to make family happy, but that's another matter.

Meh.
post #43 of 45
I don't usually say much about my faith, because I consider it a private matter. But I think it's relevant to acknowledge that I am a committed Christan, and would like nothing better than to exchange vows with my darling before a priest and an assembled multitude. For his own reasons, which I respect, DH can't do that, but there is no question in my mind or my heart of his commitment. Were we of child-bearing years, I would have no qualms whatever about bringing a child into our lives, and I firmly believe that we are proof positive that the public vows and the piece of paper, while they have their place, are not necessary to a stable relationship, and THAT is what is needed in order to bring up a child.
post #44 of 45
I have no opinion about what other people should do regarding getting married or having kids. People should follow their hearts. I wish all children had stable, loving homes but that doesn't have anything to do with number of parents or marital status.

I believe that a couple who is getting married should get married in their way. If they want to have their dog be the flower girl, that's their business.
post #45 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampWitch View Post
I believe that a couple who is getting married should get married in their way. If they want to have their dog be the flower girl, that's their business.
My niece did that - her dog was her ring-bearer. The marriage didn't last unfortunately.

My take on "out of wedlock babies" is that they present more of a problem as to "what will the neighbours think?", or "what will our relatives think", or "oh, the shame" when it should be about the joy of a new life in their lives. Too many folks IMO get mired in that everyone will think they are bad or some such nonsense.
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