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Fip - Page 2

post #31 of 42
I think the reason everyone is asking is because there is such an overpopulation problem that they just cant understand breeding kitties who aren't purebred!

I understand you had a goal in mind though, and IMO, if they all get good homes and are loved, dont think it should be an issue!

Have you had your kitties tested for the corona virus?? Just an idea...
That way you know if they have the corona virus that there is always a chance that the kittens *could* get FIP. It doesn't mean they will though.
They have to get the corona virus, which is normally not a bad thing, then things have to go horribly wrong for that virus to mutate into FIP. The chances are slim, but I had one who got it and died! FIP is really on the rise recently, so the safest thing to do is after you get your last litter, get them all spayed and nuetered! You have your family, and if you ever decide you want another, there a milliions of kitties just waiting for a good home!

I dont know about what to do with the other one though, I mean, if that would got FIP, then the next one you give them could also, and I dont think they'd appreciate that at all either! I think FIP is kind of stress induced, if something happens that stresses cats out, the corona virus mutates and becomes FIP.

Im not sure on any of this, its just a guess! Good luck!
post #32 of 42
Ok and if by chance you get what you want (those are all recessive genes), it will take a lot of inbreeding and many generations to be consistant. This will not happen in just 3-4 generations of cats. The Munchkin cats are already a breed (TICA), so what will this new cat contribute? Is your intentions to have a "new breed" or just a variation of the Munchkin cats.

Are you working with TICA to do this? If you are not registering these cats, then IMO you are not doing anything but creating more kittens with no real goal. Are you working with other Munchkin breeders?
post #33 of 42
I'd probably offer the owners another kitten in good will, however I wouldn't pay for any vet bills. Ultimately every pet owner is responsible for their pets health care. Vaccinations and neutering/spaying are, as I see it, obligatory expenses for every pet owner and the breeder should never be responsible for these costs.

I also believe it's the pet owners resposnibility to make sure the cat has a good veterinary insurance. An alternative to offer a new kitten would be, if the cat becomes ill and the disease without any doubt comes from the breeder, to pay for vet costs BUT in this case the breeder should only have to pay for what the insurance doesn't cover.

In Sweden we breeders are obligated to do a lot. The first 6 months the breeder have to prove that the disease doesn't come from her/him. We may also be held responsible (by law) to replace the sick cat, pay for the vet costs AND pay for "damages". That really s*cks.
post #34 of 42
Thread Starter 
Golden kitty, the gene for the folded ear and the shorter leg are both incomplete dominants not recessive. As far as longer hair goes, that is why i had a male himi, in terms of pointed in color our adults were already pointed cats to begin with. I am very much aware that most registered breeders absolutely hate when others breed mixed breed cats. My feelings on the matter are different, as a breeder, i consider that I have done anything within my knowledge to ensure that kittens i bred were healthy, no one can claim i sell my kittens to make a profit, if you would like i would be more then happy to tell you the price range i have sold kittens for, i have never tried to sell a person a cat and called it a new breed, or registered or anything like that, i have always been up front and honest. I always make sure they know they are purchasing a cross. I have done everything in my power to ensure that any cats i produce do not contribute to the over population of cats. In my area, 99.5% of the cats you see in the rescues and shelters are not pointed either pure or mixes, they are domestics. I have also never ever seen a munchkin in any rescue in my area, and hope never to see one, though i know, one day it will happen. There are not very many munchkin cats in my area. I am aware of two breeders within a two to three hour radius of where i live, one who is TICA registered, the other who is not. If i really wanted just a folded ear cat with short legs, all i would have had to do was pick any scottish fold to breed to my munchkin, and eventually in one litter or another i would have gotten the kitten i wanted. However i was looking not just for color, and folded ears, and short legs, there was a face shape i wanted, a body shape, and a personality type. I am aware that it would have been many generations down the line until we had the cat we wanted, it was never intended as a goal that would have been accomplished in two years, we were aware that it was a long term commitment. As for what this cat would contribute, nothing other then personal satisfaction of knowing i had the cat that i had been trying for, for years. A dream that most purebred breeders have as well. The intent afterwards was never to show or market such a cat, but, selfishly as some may consider it, we just wanted it for ourselves. Just because it is a personal goal, does not mean there is no real goal, I have great respect for the advice you as a breeder have offered me in this situation with the owners kitty, and I also understand that you may or you may not agree with my feelings on why i was breeding in the first place. I do want to say thank you for your advice. As far as resolving the situation with the kitten, I am just waiting for my vet to finish reviewing the paperwork on the kitten, and write up something for me in terms of his recommendations.
post #35 of 42
I see, so it was only to produce ONE cat that had everything you wanted and you were not planning on creating a new breed. I understand your "goal" and your procuess, just don't get the logic behind it.

I owned a mixed breed (bicolor with very brilliant odd eye color - blue and green). She was even outstanding in a bicolor - perfect 50/50. It would have been interesting to try and duplicate that again, but she was spayed at 7 months old.

As long as the kittens that didn't match your "ideal" were placed with neuter/spay agreements, and you obviously care about that and where they go, your medical issues, etc., then you are being responsible.

Now if you do create it, and something happens to that cat, will you start over again to create it again? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here.
post #36 of 42
Thread Starter 
That was a question that had never occurred to me, and one that i doubt i would ever be able to answer unless that situation occurred. Thinking about that question now, three possible answers come to mind, again can't truely say which i would do unless it happened however, these are the three things i feel i might think if that situation occurred.

There most likely would be at that time crossed kittens of what i wanted, with all the new varieties of "dwarf" breed that are currently in experimental or further along in terms of becoming a recognized breed, my bet is that someone will try (whether they succeed or not is a different story) to have a folded munchkin as either a new breed or a variation of the munchkin. Considering I was probably not going to have bred the cat i wanted in the next five years, probably would have been after ten years, especially as I am not willing to rehome the three cats we have, even after they are finished breeding for me. The only reason i rehomed Muffin (the scottish fold cross) is because after a year and a half of trying, she still tried to attack our munchkin, and the munchkin was too afraid to go where the litter boxes were as that was Muffins territory, so she would go to the bathroom elsewhere in the house, after cleaning that up for a year, i decided that it was better for all of us if Muffin lived in another home.

Second most likely possibility, I would think that if I went to all that work, and something happened to the cat I wanted, and I had already had all of the cats i had used fixed, i would just say it obviously was not meant to be, I doubt I would go back and do it for another ten years to produce that one particular cat.

Third least likely possibility, I would go back and start from scratch again, the reason i doubt i would go for this possibility is due to the fact that I am not personally interested in being the one who creates this as a new recognized breed, if i wanted that "honor" (not really sure if it would be an honor or not lol) then I would be doing it with either the Dwarf Cat Association or the Designer Cat Association.
post #37 of 42
I would like to address the original question from the point of another breeder.
I also have nothing in my contract for FIP I can't guarantee something that no ones knows enough about. No one knows why some get it and some don't ect. I personally would replace the kitten, even though I am NOT obligated to do so, but that's it. I wouldn't repay vet bills, or would I expect a breeder to pay my vet bills if I was the one loosing the kitten.
I think you should send a link to this site/thread to the owner, that way they can see them selves that you had asked from the point of veiw as the owner and even though most thought you had bought the kitten still said you weren't entittled to vet bill reinbursment. It will show them that you didn't come here and have a bunch of breeders agree with you as a breeder. It may also show them that inspite the vet saying that it came from your cattery, that may not be true. The vet didn't want to point out that it could have infact been exposed to the kitten at his own clinic, it is easier for the vet to say ..."oh I am sorry he had FIP, it's not your fault it must have come from their cattery, cause it didn't pick it up here...pay your bill on the way out please" I hope you ask the owners to check out this site, and find out for themselves more about FIP and where your obligations lie.
I think you sound like a caring breeder and trying to do right by your cats/kittens and the new owners, I think you should take a little break and let your heart heal from loosing this kitten to FIP, and rethink what you are doing. If you are serious about wanting to produce a certain kitten you should go about it the right way and work with TICA and other breeders to do it the right way. Starting with papered cats and working long to term to establish a new breed or work with one that is established and work with excepted out crosses of them. I am not saying we need more cat breeds, but who am I to say some one shouldn't work with certain lines and cats to produce new breeds/or lines as long as it is done the right way. I love my breed and if some one hadn't decided to mix breeds and follow a certain program, they wouldn't be an excepted cat breed today, they have only been around since the 1960's and if every one said we didn't need any more breeds and gave up on them my wonderful babies wouldn't be here. So I am not totally against some one trying to establish new breeds, but there is a certain way to go about it.
Good luck I hope it works out for you and the owner of the little kitten, even though I have never had to deal with it, I know it is heartbreaking for everyone
post #38 of 42
Also, keep in mind those 2 associations you mentioned are NOT legitimate associations and are not recognized by any of the major associations - they are more/less backyard breeder associations. Registering your cats with them will get you no where and only create the wrong impression.

I agree with Celest - if you are serious in the future, then work with TICA to establish a breed.
post #39 of 42
I am a breeder of Siamese and I have a guarantee of 72 hrs.If anything should happen to a kitten after it leaves here after that period I am not responsible for anything.Now in the future I could maybe replace the kitten at a discount price or give a free kitten but that would be the only options.I have never delt with FIP but I know it is extrememly bad to deal with when you breed.Basicly if you breed and a cat has or does have it I'd shut my cattery down!I take it very seriously as I do all feline diseases!I have never had a case of any major disease!I am lucky is all I can say and I do what everone does keep your cats indoors,keep them vaccinated and if you should bring other cats in quarantine them until they can be checked and cleared of all illnesses.I can very well understand if someone pays several hundred dollars for a kitten and it dies I'd be upset too and would think that the person you purchased it from may have to play a role in the outcome of what should be done but you should set time frames in a written agreement so you can protect yourself for unfortunate events.People can even file legal claims on this type of misfortunes.You may never know how the kitten got FIP but it doesnt sound like it was completely identified as FIP ither.You should be cautious with the cats it was in contact with as well while it was still in your home.FIP is very contageous and honestly you should hault breeding until you can determine medically that you present breeders are not infected or you can cause a vicious cycle of selling FIP positive cats over and over and signs of FIP may not even occur for years and they can still have it.I hate to sound firm but its a serious matter if indeed it was FIP.Keep us up to date I would like to hear more with this incident.Good luck!
post #40 of 42
Quote:
FIP is very contageous and honestly you should hault breeding until you can determine medically that you present breeders are not infected or you can cause a vicious cycle of selling FIP positive cats over and over and signs of FIP may not even occur for years and they can still have it.I hate to sound firm but its a serious matter if indeed it was FIP.
Feline Enteric Coronavirus is very contagious. But the mutated form of the virus that causes FIP is not. FIP cannot be passed from cat to cat as the infected cat does not shed the mutated virus. Most cats that are exposed to FCV do not develop FIP.

In the case of overcrowding (or other stresses) to the point that the cats immune systems are compromised, can cause more instances of FIP in the cattery.

Here is a link too read: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...=2&SourceID=42

Dr. Meurs will be presenting a Educational Seminar on FIP at the Chicago GLACE show in March. The show coinsides with the International Ragdoll Congress. We'll be attending and I'm sure we'll be getting the most up to date information.
post #41 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowFlakes View Post
I am a breeder of Siamese and I have a guarantee of 72 hrs.If anything should happen to a kitten after it leaves here after that period I am not responsible for anything.Now in the future I could maybe replace the kitten at a discount price or give a free kitten but that would be the only options.I have never delt with FIP but I know it is extrememly bad to deal with when you breed.Basicly if you breed and a cat has or does have it I'd shut my cattery down!I take it very seriously as I do all feline diseases!I have never had a case of any major disease!I am lucky is all I can say and I do what everone does keep your cats indoors,keep them vaccinated and if you should bring other cats in quarantine them until they can be checked and cleared of all illnesses.I can very well understand if someone pays several hundred dollars for a kitten and it dies I'd be upset too and would think that the person you purchased it from may have to play a role in the outcome of what should be done but you should set time frames in a written agreement so you can protect yourself for unfortunate events.People can even file legal claims on this type of misfortunes.You may never know how the kitten got FIP but it doesnt sound like it was completely identified as FIP ither.You should be cautious with the cats it was in contact with as well while it was still in your home.FIP is very contageous and honestly you should hault breeding until you can determine medically that you present breeders are not infected or you can cause a vicious cycle of selling FIP positive cats over and over and signs of FIP may not even occur for years and they can still have it.I hate to sound firm but its a serious matter if indeed it was FIP.Keep us up to date I would like to hear more with this incident.Good luck!
I believe i stated in other posts the information you mentioned, there was a written health garantee, one week, the kitten began not doing well four months after having left my house, in that time period, it was at the vet clinic for routine stuff (shots neutering etc.) was also in a pet store and was also at my personal vet clinic before the kitten left my house (all possible places where coronavirus could have been picked up aside from my own household). As you have stated if you ever experienced FIP in your cats, is there some sort of test you have screened your adults with to confirm that they do not have FIP? If so please let me know, i would be more then happy to have my vet perform the same test. My cats are indoors only, vaccinated and go for yearly checkups (or more often if there is any issue **knock on wood i have never had an issue with our cats*) I was the person the kitten was purchased from, and there was a written health warranty signed and dated. There was not a post mortem done to say yes it definately was FIP however the kittens abdomen was severely distended, and fluid removed from the belly was exactly like I have seen pictures of online (at least from the written description from the vet who removed the fluid) so i would concur that the kitten had FIP. The other kittens from that litter are perfectly healthy, no issues there, (i checked up on all of them just to make sure just the other week) and my adult cats are also. FIP is not contagious, however the coronavirus that causes FIP is contagious. It would not surprise me if my adult cats at some point in time had come in contact with the corona virus, as twice in the last two years, i had taken in day old kittens (both times mother had been hit by a car) and I hand reared the kittens. As far as halting breeding, at this time we only have one female who is breeding, we had just in december gotten our other female cat fixed, and the female who is breeding had just been breed, it was probably only days before I was contacted and informed about the kitten with FIP, so there was no way to stop breeding. As far as after this litter, I am unsure if I will continue after this, it was not a pleasant thing to have to hear.

As far as an update on this matter goes, I have offered another kitten, but let them know as politely as was possible under the circumstances, that I would not be responsible for the vet bills incurred. They have not as of yet gotten back to me, I told them there was no rush, I would check in in a couple of weeks to see how things stood, they are adamant that their vet stated the kitten was ill when purchased, although the exact write up from their vet stated the kitten was "probably" ill when purchased, when i showed that information to my personal vet, he was very irate to say the least, as there was no way to determine when or where the kitten picked up the corona virus, my vet admitted that it is possible to even have picked it up from a clinic and well, we're not resloved yet unfortunately....... hopefully soon, next contract will have something specific about FIP however to avoid any such incidence in this next litter, and then after that I'm not sure, it is has been a very disheartening beginning to the year.......
post #42 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsch21 View Post
Feline Enteric Coronavirus is very contagious. But the mutated form of the virus that causes FIP is not. FIP cannot be passed from cat to cat as the infected cat does not shed the mutated virus. Most cats that are exposed to FCV do not develop FIP.

In the case of overcrowding (or other stresses) to the point that the cats immune systems are compromised, can cause more instances of FIP in the cattery.

Here is a link too read: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...=2&SourceID=42

Dr. Meurs will be presenting a Educational Seminar on FIP at the Chicago GLACE show in March. The show coinsides with the International Ragdoll Congress. We'll be attending and I'm sure we'll be getting the most up to date information.
I would be personally very interested in any new information you may come across in March, please let me know.
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