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Iran warns Netherlands not to air "anti-Muslim" movie

post #1 of 62
1/21/08 at 5:25pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324406,00.html

Please read the article before commenting.

I know my mind changed drastically when I read it. At first, when I read the headline, I was more concerned with Iran attempting to impose their will on another country. I mean, who in the heck do they think they are? Is this just another flap like the cartoon caricatures of Mohamed? There have been a LOT of perceived anti-Christian movies (i.e. The Last Temptation of Christ, The DaVinci Code) and there wasn't any country relations affected by them.

Then I read the article. And my concern swayed. While I still think that Iran doesn't have any authority to threaten another country for respecting the Freedom of Speech, it's actually the content or ideas behind the 10 minute movie that bothered me more.

There's been a lot of talk about the US going to war against Islam, not going to "war" against the terrorists. In my eyes, there is still a big difference between Islam and radical Islam. Just like there is a big difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants.

I guess the question would be - which is more alarming to you? Honestly, they are both alarming to me.
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post #2 of 62
1/21/08 at 5:40pm
Wow. That Wilders guy is something else isn't he?

I would be totally embarrassed and rethinking these guys "rights" if they continue to go ahead and air their movie if I were the government of Netherlands.

I mean, it's like the U.S. government safe housing white supremists and allowing them to air whatever they want over public channels. You're right, there is Freedom of Speech, but there's such a thing as going waaaaaay too far with your freedom.

Dare I say it? I'm kind of sad that the attacks on these people weren't carried through. I'm disgusted by their hate.
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post #3 of 62
1/21/08 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324406,00.html

Please read the article before commenting.

I know my mind changed drastically when I read it. At first, when I read the headline, I was more concerned with Iran attempting to impose their will on another country. I mean, who in the heck do they think they are? Is this just another flap like the cartoon caricatures of Mohamed? There have been a LOT of perceived anti-Christian movies (i.e. The Last Temptation of Christ, The DaVinci Code) and there wasn't any country relations affected by them.

Then I read the article. And my concern swayed. While I still think that Iran doesn't have any authority to threaten another country for respecting the Freedom of Speech, it's actually the content or ideas behind the 10 minute movie that bothered me more.

There's been a lot of talk about the US going to war against Islam, not going to "war" against the terrorists. In my eyes, there is still a big difference between Islam and radical Islam. Just like there is a big difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants.

I guess the question would be - which is more alarming to you? Honestly, they are both alarming to me.
This is a very touchy subject no matter how you look at it.
No, I don't think Iran has the authority to tell people what to do, but who else would protest in such a violent manner that would leave a free speaking person in fear for their lives? (excepting the anti-abortionists, that is)
In a free thinking democratic society, we don't have to worry too much about being blown up at our favorite sidewalk cafe...or do we?
And there are several references in the Koran about the treatment of women that are pretty debasing, among other things.
I try to keep an open mind about most things, but I haven't forgotten the day that our lives were changed & I never will.
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post #4 of 62
1/21/08 at 6:04pm
they have killed people before before for speaking up,van Gogh comes to mind.
also i think some member of there goverment, SO it sounds to like the movie is right on target.

oh yea

"broke into outright murder when Fortuyn was shot by an animal rights activist who told the judge in the case that he was acting on behalf of the country's Muslims. Two years later, van Gogh was shot, stabbed and nearly decapitated on an Amsterdam street by Mohammed Bouyeri, a Muslim and a Dutch citizen of Moroccan descent"

Kinda goes back to middle east version of Islam is not compatible with the West

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4204820.stm
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post #5 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:07am
I think it's so ungrateful for him to make a film like this, and still expect government protection.
He's made this film knowing that its only real effect will be to anger Muslims across the world. I doubt it will reveal anything shocking about Islam, and will probably just serve to support to beliefs of people like him. By not discriminating between Islam and radical Islam he is going to anger a group of people who are not known for their tolerance of things like this.
I don't think that radical Muslims have the right to react in the way they have in the past (and will to this film), but wilders is deliberately provoking them.
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post #6 of 62
1/22/08 at 7:03am
I read the article and I dont see the problem. It is yet another example of Islamic Fascism. Iran threatenens "protests"?? Yeah right. Once the movie airs you will see the usual flag burning, calls to kill Wilder, and "Behead those who insult Islam" signs. Islam is a backwards religion, with millions dying at the hands of jihadists who believe the Koran is thee book that should guide all of humanity, government and citizens alike. Europe is now dealing with the problem, and the US will if this threat is not confronted. Any ideology that believes that "disbelievers" should be killed, is fascist and dangerous. Any ideology that believes that a government should sponsor a religion's principles and beliefs is dangerous. Some posts state that the issue should be handled delicately. However I believe a spade should be called a spade. Islam practiced by fanatics is horribly savage and demented. Islam as practiced by non-fanatics is 5th century in its teatment of women and non-believers. Why is it that the non-fanatics are not more vocal about the murder and torture committed by practitioners of the religion in the name of Allah? Either they really implicitly agree with it; or they are scared of being slaughtered if they make their opinions known. Obviously, neither is good.
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post #7 of 62
1/22/08 at 2:49pm
I don't understand the posters who think Wilders film is hateful. It seems to be about things that have actually happened. The people that were murdered just made a 10 minute movie that was okay to show on national TV, not a skin head flick.

That Wilders had to be put in a kind of witness protection program to protect him from Moslem fanatics is awful. The people that killed his friends should be in jail, not him.

I can understand that the government is afraid of the reactions of the Moslem community, but giving into their threats of violence might be even worse. It's like telling a spoiled child throwing a temper fit that they can have whatever they want. Next time, they will want more.

I also wonder how the British are handling things differently in their country. The Moslem population there seems to be adjusting better than in France or Scandanavia.

I hope it never comes to this in America.
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post #8 of 62
1/22/08 at 4:09pm
Mainly due to his comments in the article:

Quote:
Five months ago, he called for the Koran to be outlawed in the Netherlands.

"I believe our culture is much better than the retarded Islamic cultures," he told FOXNews.com.
ummm...retarded...? retarded??? Separating your culture and saying its so much better than another culture is being hateful.

Then this quote (towards the beginning) is even better:
Quote:
People who watch the movie will see that the Koran is very much alive today, leading to the destruction of everything we in the Western world stand for, which is respect and tolerance,"
He's a walking oxy moran! If respect and tolerance is what the western world stands and he is a part of the western world...then why is he not respectful and tolerant of immigration of the Islamic world? Simply by making and showing this movie and in this article he flat out says that he is intolerant of the Islamic culture. Which is opposite of "his" Western world stands for.
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post #9 of 62
1/22/08 at 4:15pm
The thing is, their reaction to this movie is proving out his stance. What does the movie say, they will kill people who don't agree with their religion? Well.... yeah.....
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post #10 of 62
1/22/08 at 4:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
I don't understand the posters who think Wilders film is hateful. It seems to be about things that have actually happened. The people that were murdered just made a 10 minute movie that was okay to show on national TV, not a skin head flick.

...

I hope it never comes to this in America.
It was statements like this that made me be incredulous at this politician's stance:

Quote:
Five months ago, he called for the Koran to be outlawed in the Netherlands.


\t \t\t\t \t\t\t "I believe our culture is much better than the retarded Islamic cultures," he told FOXNews.com. "Ninety-nine percent of the intolerance in the world comes back to the Islamic religion and the Koran."
He wants to outlaw Islam in his country, but still wants the Freedom of Speech to say that HE isn't the one who is intolerant. To me, statements like that are the same as the KKK using the Freedom of Assembly to hold rallies and the Freedom of Speech to publish their hate-filled propaganda. In the KKK's eyes, they have good reason to hold their racism too.

I will definitely agree with your last statement - I really and truly do hope it never gets to this point in the US.
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post #11 of 62
1/22/08 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
ummm...retarded...? retarded???
You seem to be offended by the use of the word "retarded". Do you think maybe his use of that word might have something to do with a language difference? Retarded also means "backward" and I think there are many people who live by Western standards who would agree with him that the Islamic culture is backward.
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post #12 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by catcaregiver View Post
You seem to be offended by the use of the word "retarded". Do you think maybe his use of that word might have something to do with a language difference? Retarded also means "backward" and I think there are many people who live by Western standards who would agree with him that the Islamic culture is backward.
I agree with that. He means to say "slowed down", "not progressed" and similar meanings; not the pejorative use that the word is often put to in the US. I also think he is 100% on the money.
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post #13 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
It was statements like this that made me be incredulous at this politician's stance:



He wants to outlaw Islam in his country, but still wants the Freedom of Speech to say that HE isn't the one who is intolerant. To me, statements like that are the same as the KKK using the Freedom of Assembly to hold rallies and the Freedom of Speech to publish their hate-filled propaganda. In the KKK's eyes, they have good reason to hold their racism too.

I will definitely agree with your last statement - I really and truly do hope it never gets to this point in the US.
Your logic is quite flawed. If we should respect all life on this planet, then should we seek to kill cancer, or viruses such as HIV? Well, of course we should seek to eliminate those forms of life, because those forms of life mean to end ours. Same with Islam. There is nothing "intolerant" about not suffering the presence of a religion that breeds all of the evil acts that Islam breeds. Quite the contrary, just as it is sensible to separate ourselves from murderers and other criminals by jailing them, it seems quite sensible to rid ourselves of such a religion, and the people that practice it. Or is that being "intolerant"?
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post #14 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
He's a walking oxy moran! If respect and tolerance is what the western world stands and he is a part of the western world...then why is he not respectful and tolerant of immigration of the Islamic world? Simply by making and showing this movie and in this article he flat out says that he is intolerant of the Islamic culture. Which is opposite of "his" Western world stands for.
Because like what is going in some cities here, many of the immigrats are not trying to fit into the cultural they went to..They already had people killed there for speaking up.

at what point do you stop just taking it,and fight back?
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post #15 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
I agree with that. He means to say "slowed down", "not progressed" and similar meanings; not the pejorative use that the word is often put to in the US. I also think he is 100% on the money.
So that's my error...yes, I thought that he meant retarded as in "mentally retarded".

If its the language barrier, then the interpretor used several phrases and/or words that are being read wrong. still...if its the point that you're placed in hiding because of your views by your own government...well there's free speech and then there's going beyond free speech.

Like both Heidi and I quoted, however, he's a walking oxymoran. He calls Islamic intolerant, yet he's the one being intolerant towards Islam.
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post #16 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
So that's my error...yes, I thought that he meant retarded as in "mentally retarded".

If its the language barrier, then the interpretor used several phrases and/or words that are being read wrong. still...if its the point that you're placed in hiding because of your views by your own government...well there's free speech and then there's going beyond free speech.

Like both Heidi and I quoted, however, he's a walking oxymoran. He calls Islamic intolerant, yet he's the one being intolerant towards Islam.
Read my post # 13. There is every reason to be intolerant of Islam; and not being intolerant of such a negative force, is downright dangerous. Can we forget political correctness and its silly overused catch phrases (tolerance) for a moment and have the courage to judge something for what it is? And once properly judged, do something about it??? For the sake of being politically correct, it seems that much of the world has checked its common sense at the door.
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post #17 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
Because like what is going in some cities here, many of the immigrats are not trying to fit into the cultural they went to..They already had people killed there for speaking up.

at what point do you stop just taking it,and fight back?
You do so by enforcing the laws. The article made no mention of what happened to his attempted assassins, whether they were arrested, hung, or given a good scolding and shared a joint with the judge.

I'm really just suprised and shocked that their government would place them into hiding. I've never heard of the U.S. Government placing White Suppremists into hiding to help protect their freedom of speech (tho after this article...I wouldn't be surprised).

Besides look at the history of the world...Alexander the Great and the amount of "known land" he took over, The Roman Empire, The Catholic Church, The U.K. Territories, its all a part of the history of civilization. Major events in history is dominanted by a group of people that all happen to believe something similar. Granted I'm not saying to just lay across their laps and ask them to spank you for them...however its something that we may experience in the next 100 years...it may also be something that needs to happen in order for their religion to grow...
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post #18 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
Read my post # 13. There is every reason to be intolerant of Islam; and not being intolerant of such a negative force, is downright dangerous. Can we forget political correctness and its silly overused catch phrases (tolerance) for a moment and have the courage to judge something for what it is? And once properly judged, do something about it??? For the sake of being politically correct, it seems that much of the world has checked its common sense at the door.
So you're saying in Post #13 to rid the planet of Islamics simply because they mean to end our culture? Wasn't that Hitler's theory with the Jews?

I think the one thing we need to agree though: Islam is "generally" a peaceful religion. It is the Radical Islamists that are attempting assassinations on the people that speak out against them and takes the latter teaching of Mohammed literally instead of figuratively. These are the ones being "intolerant" of Western culture.
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post #19 of 62
1/22/08 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
So you're saying in Post #13 to rid the planet of Islamics simply because they mean to end our culture? Wasn't that Hitler's theory with the Jews?
First the Jews werent flying planes into buildings, strapping explosives to their bodies and killing innocent men women and children, or filming beheadings performed in the name of the Jewish God. But that is not what Im saying at all. We should rid the US of Islamics because they espouse a religion that calls for the death of all non-believers, and the superiority of their laws over the Constituution of the United States. Not to mention that many Isalmic jihadists mean to separate us from our heads. Sounds like a good thing to rid ourselves of to me.
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post #20 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:00pm
The meek shall inherit the earth. And what that means is, the Earth faiths, the Philosophers, the agnostics and such will be the meek. They will be the ones stuck with whats left of the earth when the religious get done fighting over it. All we can hope for is that it will be able to heal itself when they're gone.
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post #21 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:04pm
Thread Starter 
So, you see no difference at all between the average, peaceful Muslim and the followers of Osama bin Laden? They should just all die? Just kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

There's nothing PC about it - trust me, I'm about as anti-PC as can be! Should all Christians be painted with the same brush as the radicals who have bombed abortion clinics and murdered doctors?
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post #22 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:12pm
I made two deployments to Beirut in 1982/83. I got to see first hand what the Muslims AND the Christians were capable of. And both sides were quite merciless and brutal. And, there were scared, cowering victims with no where to run on both sides too. Did you know that when you get enough people hiding in one place, that fear has a smell. A very weird, unforgettable smell.

There's no easy answers. If it was as easy as some here think, surely they would have tried it at least once in the last 1300 years, don't you think?
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post #23 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
There's no easy answers. If it was as easy as some here think, surely they would have tried it at least once in the last 1300 years, don't you think?
It was tried once, they called it The Crusades, when Christians attempted to eradicate Islam from the planet. Didn't work. And even the Christian leaders will now say that was a bad thing. Guess some haven't gotten that message.
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post #24 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
There's no easy answers. If it was as easy as some here think, surely they would have tried it at least once in the last 1300 years, don't you think?
Very true. I agree that there isn't an easy way, however I do not believe that anhialating an entire religion/race based because a certain sect of the religion claims jihadist.

I agree Heidi, if that were the case, then why don't we also anhialate all the christians because an extremist sect decided to blow up abortion clinics those that beat on the mothers making a choice, and anything else that was against their beliefs.
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post #25 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
Mainly due to his comments in the article:



ummm...retarded...? retarded??? Separating your culture and saying its so much better than another culture is being hateful.

Then this quote (towards the beginning) is even better:


He's a walking oxy moran! If respect and tolerance is what the western world stands and he is a part of the western world...then why is he not respectful and tolerant of immigration of the Islamic world? Simply by making and showing this movie and in this article he flat out says that he is intolerant of the Islamic culture. Which is opposite of "his" Western world stands for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
It was statements like this that made me be incredulous at this politician's stance:



He wants to outlaw Islam in his country, but still wants the Freedom of Speech to say that HE isn't the one who is intolerant. To me, statements like that are the same as the KKK using the Freedom of Assembly to hold rallies and the Freedom of Speech to publish their hate-filled propaganda. In the KKK's eyes, they have good reason to hold their racism too.

I will definitely agree with your last statement - I really and truly do hope it never gets to this point in the US.
Yes, you've convinced me that he made intolerant statements. Somehow I got stuck on the deaths of his friends. I will cut him some slack because of the deaths of his friends, however. That could probably make me intolerant too. Please notice I said some slack -- he's definitely not completely okay with me.

That said, I still don't think it's okay for one group to decide to kill anyone that makes a hateful movie about them. Even the threat of death is wrong. Although, do you think the TV station would show a really hateful movie? Maybe it's just unflattering.

I wish more Muslims would speak out against this kind of intolerance by their own people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
First the Jews werent flying planes into buildings, strapping explosives to their bodies and killing innocent men women and children, or filming beheadings performed in the name of the Jewish God. But that is not what Im saying at all. We should rid the US of Islamics because they espouse a religion that calls for the death of all non-believers, and the superiority of their laws over the Constituution of the United States. Not to mention that many Isalmic jihadists mean to separate us from our heads. Sounds like a good thing to rid ourselves of to me.
This seems equally intolerant. Just because a person is born into a culture and religion, doesn't mean they should all be damned. Usually people want to show respect for their own culture, even when it's got a lot of mistakes...and they get defensive when they feel it is attacked. Only if they disobey our laws should we take any action against them.
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post #26 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
Yes, you've convinced me that he made intolerant statements. Somehow I got stuck on the deaths of his friends. I will cut him some slack because of the deaths of his friends, however. That could probably make me intolerant too. Please notice I said some slack -- he's definitely not completely okay with me.

That said, I still don't think it's okay for one group to decide to kill anyone that makes a hateful movie about them. Even the threat of death is wrong. Although, do you think the TV station would show a really hateful movie? Maybe it's just unflattering.

I wish more Muslims would speak out against this kind of intolerance.
I can agree with that.

When I first read the article, I was truly flabbergasted by both sides. I don't think it's at all right for Iran or the radical Muslims to threaten death let alone actually kill because of saying something they don't agree with, or even that they feel insulted by. But I don't think it's right at all for him to be so all-inclusive of ALL of Islam because of the actions of a few.

One other thing that bothered me is that he said that if the station won't air it on their own show, he will use the TV time that is guaranteed to the political party (he's an elected official) so regardless of what the station said he would make sure it is aired.
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post #27 of 62
1/22/08 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie=^..^= View Post
That said, I still don't think it's okay for one group to decide to kill anyone that makes a hateful movie about them. Even the threat of death is wrong. Although, do you think the TV station would show a really hateful movie? Maybe it's just unflattering.
I think we're assuming threat of death/death because of previous incidents between radical islam and Wilders, Van Gogh, etc.

However I went back and reread the article all that is stated that I could find in the article is that Iran is going to reconsider its relations with the Netherlands. That could mean a total number of things: death, war or cold war, money, request for rights, etc...heck they could just make their own "movie" and spit on windmills, wooden shoes, and tulips. Or did I miss the part about death???
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post #28 of 62
1/22/08 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
I think we're assuming threat of death/death because of previous incidents between radical islam and Wilders, Van Gogh, etc.

However I went back and reread the article all that is stated that I could find in the article is that Iran is going to reconsider its relations with the Netherlands. That could mean a total number of things: death, war or cold war, money, request for rights, etc...heck they could just make their own "movie" and spit on windmills, wooden shoes, and tulips. Or did I miss the part about death???

those threats have been made to wilder, that why he was placed under protection. That story is just a update to when they first started talking about it.

What i am not understanding is how, his view are the same as the KKK? i dont see where its the same, More like the other way around, the radical muslims are the kkk. with wilder speaking up aganist them.

"I wish more Muslims would speak out against this kind of intolerance by their own people."

that been said many times before, the one there that speak up are normaly killed, the ones here, have to go into hiding. Interviews they have there faces blacked out.
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post #29 of 62
1/22/08 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
So, you see no difference at all between the average, peaceful Muslim and the followers of Osama bin Laden? They should just all die? Just kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

There's nothing PC about it - trust me, I'm about as anti-PC as can be! Should all Christians be painted with the same brush as the radicals who have bombed abortion clinics and murdered doctors?
The difference is we aren't talking about a 'few' crazies using their religion to do what they want. We are talking about ALOT of people feeling this way. We are talking about ALOT of people who danced in the streets when the towers went down and the pentagon was hit. We are talking about people who regularly kill their own daughters because the groom didn't give enough dowery to the wedding. Or because she married below her station. Sure there are good people who are Muslims that do not espouse these views, but you can't say it is a few crazies that do. There are alot. And they think you should kill a woman for letting children name a teddy bear Muhammand. They think anyone converting from Islam to another religion should be put to death. They think they should make others follow Sharia law.
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post #30 of 62
1/22/08 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
I made two deployments to Beirut in 1982/83. I got to see first hand what the Muslims AND the Christians were capable of. And both sides were quite merciless and brutal. And, there were scared, cowering victims with no where to run on both sides too. Did you know that when you get enough people hiding in one place, that fear has a smell. A very weird, unforgettable smell.
yea that is very true alot people really need to learn to let other believe the way they want. when it comes to those matters.

yea, i know that, its a nice mix of sweat, and hmm other body fluids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
It was tried once, they called it The Crusades, when Christians attempted to eradicate Islam from the planet.
hmmm, No the crusades where to take back Jerusalem. Although crusades often took place in other places. For different reasons.

and the crusades often spent as much time attacking christians as they spent attacking muslims.

lol knights where not the movie version that most people have, Most where just thugs with metal suits and long pointing things they stuck into people
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