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So, one of my classmates shot the people who broke into his apt

post #1 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:31pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...shooting2.html

They aren't releasing the names, so I can't be 100% on whether he's actually a classmate, but from his age/neighborhood, I'm guessing it is. Oddly, I was less than a block away earlier today and didn't notice anything

Some background: that area is scary. The further east you go from campus, the worse and worse the neighborhood gets. There are two cross-streets that are kind of like boundaries; the first one you don't live past, the second one you don't walk past. This is the corner of the second one. I say this because I am completely unsurprised that he owned a gun, even though he isn't old enough to have one legally, and I also understand why he does.

And I am guessing, again, that he'll be found to have been within his rights, especially since it sounds like there were at least three robbers in his apartment while he (I suppose it could be a she) and someone else were home.

Even more weirdly, the same night this happened my boyfriend and I were talking about this case in Texas where the man called 911, decided they didn't come fast enough, and shot people who were burglarizing his neighbor's house as they were leaving in the front lawn.

I think its sad that anyone lose a life over possessions, but at the same time I can understand that in the moment you can feel that your life is threatened and it really is self-defense.

There's also the issue of the gun seeming to be illegally possessed. Should it matter? Do you guys think its right for it not to be a crime at all to kill someone who is robbing you?

Should you have to prove that you really felt you, and not just your stuff, was in danger?

This isn't a far-fetched distinction-- for instance, armored-car drivers have to carry guns and be licensed to use them by the police academy, but are not typically allowed to shoot anyone unless they feel the robber is going to hurt them.
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post #2 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:39pm
I don't think that he should get in trouble for it. To much chance of the burglers not wanting to leave witnesses to their crime and their were THREE of them.

I just read the link and I think it was a; him vs them deal.
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post #3 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:42pm
Thread Starter 
Yea. The only bit that catches me on not being totally sure it's self-defense is the way it happened. The man who died had numerous gunshot wounds, the other guy was pistol-whipped.

Then again, thank god I've never been in the situation.

What about the illegal ownership of the gun?
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post #4 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:48pm
I'm sure it won't be a surprise that I would say that I think it's well within their rights.

Also, I thought that the legal age to own/possess a firearm was 18? Is that different in Ohio? (I probably should know that one...)

Considering the article said that there was a tenent (I assume that would mean not one of the robbers) who was also shot and pistol whipped, I would have to say that there was a reasonable fear for personal safety as well as possessions. It's easy to say that they just came there to rob the place. They may well have gone there with that intention, but if they also brought a gun with them (the article says that there were two guns found at the scene and it was a "shootout") and were willing to use it if they found someone home, then I would say s/he was protecting more than their stuff.

Colorado has a "Make My Day" law where if someone in unlawfully in your house, if you shoot them it is automatically self-defense. Thing is, it's difficult to know if they have a gun or a knife, or if their intention is to rob you, rape you, or kill you. Are you supposed to ask first and then shoot? Personally I like the Make My Day law. If they are breaking into my home, they have bad intentions, and quite a few of the options they have with bad intentions involve bodily harm to myself and/or my family. I don't want to have to interview them. If the adrenaline is pumping, I'm going to see them as a personal threat for no other reason than they are invading my property.
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post #5 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:49pm
I thought the tenant was pistol whipped.

The illegal firearm is a totally unrelated issue as far as I am concerned.

If he hadn't had a gun he would be dead, didn't they say two guns were at the scene and one of them wasn't the tenants? The victim would have been dead without that illegal gun.
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post #6 of 26
1/17/08 at 6:50pm
Yeah, the tenant was pistol whipped and shot. Heck yes, he would be dead without that gun.
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post #7 of 26
1/17/08 at 7:01pm
I now own legal guns, but at the time, I did not, so the sheriff, who also happened to be my first husband's uncle brought me one, knowing the migrant workers were drinking moonshine right down the road, an had been terrorizing some of the residents. The figured when I was home alone and came around trying the doors and rattling the windows, so we figured it was only a matter of time before they came in. Sure enough that weekend one of them ripped 2 doors off the trailer to get in, The first one woke me up as he ripped off the porch door, and I laid right where I was as he pulled off the other door, and shot him as he came in and told me of his intention to rape and kill me, so I shot him 3-4 times. I went to the truck stop, called the sheriff, and he told me to stay there until he rode by with his police lights flashing, then go home. I stayed about 2 hours, went home, and there was no sign of the guy I shot. I found out later he was wanted in several states for rape and attempted murder of 6 different women. One of them was 13, and he brutalized her so badly, she will never be right. He was an illegal alien, and nobody ever even looked for him. I feel he got what he deserved.
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post #8 of 26
1/17/08 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
Also, I thought that the legal age to own/possess a firearm was 18? Is that different in Ohio? (I probably should know that one...)
Rifles/shotguns is 18, handguns is 21. Easy enough to get without being 21, just like beer, but yes, it was illegal for him to own his gun.


Sorry, I seem to have misread who all the victims were. When they first released this story, it was as a homicide, then it changed to a robbery gone wrong, then they released that it was the robber who had died. Y'all are right. If it's true they don't know each other, then yea, I'd have to agree.
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post #9 of 26
1/17/08 at 7:11pm
HOLY COW :
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post #10 of 26
1/17/08 at 7:16pm
You all know how I feel about guns. BUT if you break into someone's house and they shoot you, too bad. Don't go around breaking into people's houses and you probably won't get shot. To me, it's really that simple.

It reminds me of that Jim Carrey movie, Liar Liar. He is a lawyer and is always getting petty criminals off - and usually getting them compensation. Anyway, after the spell is put on him where he has to tell the truth, one of his serial offenders rings him and asks how he's going to avoid getting arrested again. Jim Carrey's character yells into the phone, `STOP BREAKING THE LAW, A**HOLE!!!'

I just think that is SUCH a classic
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post #11 of 26
1/17/08 at 7:31pm
the way i look it is,, if you dont want shot or have limbs removed.
keep your hands off my stuff.
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post #12 of 26
1/18/08 at 2:31am
Enter my home uninvited and you take a risk
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post #13 of 26
1/18/08 at 3:15am
You don't need a permit to purchase or own a rifles, shotguns or handguns in Ohio. A permit is required for concealed carry.

I guess we'll have to wait for more details as the investigation continues but from the outside looking in it looks a clear case of self defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosiemac
Enter my home uninvited and you take a risk
Exactly. Break into my home, the perp can meet the business end of my M1.
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post #14 of 26
1/18/08 at 3:28am
To all those who indicated they would shoot people if they tried to break into their homes, does that mean shoot first and ask questions later? What if it was some kid on a dare? What if it wasn't anyone dangerous at all? Would you just shoot them? Or would you hole them up with the gun pointed and keep them there until you called the police? I'm interested - because my hope is that I would do the latter. I'm afraid I can't just do the `shoot on sight' thing. I agree that you have every right to defend your home and your life, like I said earlier, but I wouldn't just shoot at the first sign of a break-in. What if it was your son who'd forgotten his keys? It's been known to happen.
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post #15 of 26
1/18/08 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
What if it was some kid on a dare? What if it wasn't anyone dangerous at all? Would you just shoot them? Or would you hole them up with the gun pointed and keep them there until you called the police?
I don't care what age they are. If they enter my home and touch the contents that i've worked and paid for then they pay the consequences dangerous or not, because how would you know if they aren't dangerous anyway?. In the UK the figures for people getting shot/stabbed have shot up drastically and it's getting worse.

Would i shoot them?, guns are illegal here so i can't. (Although people do manage to get their hands on them!), but i'd do my damndest!.
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post #16 of 26
1/18/08 at 3:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
To all those who indicated they would shoot people if they tried to break into their homes, does that mean shoot first and ask questions later? .
of course not. but also depends on what made me think there was someone in the House,. Such hmm the sounds of the door being kicked in, or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
What if it was some kid on a dare?
they should have found better friends,
ask the tiger if it matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
What if it wasn't anyone dangerous at all?
better trial by 12 then carried by 6 its to late to worry about it after dead.

if they are broken into my house, then in my mind they are dangerous to myself,or anyone other living thing in my house. Sorry but i still remember i house broken into as a kid and the people that broke killed the guy, raped the wife, and nailed there pets to the wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
could you just shoot them? Or would you hole them up with the gun pointed and keep them there until you called the police? I'm interested - because my hope is that I would do the latter. I'm afraid I can't just do the `shoot on sight' thing.
if they are in my house, then they give up any right they have not to be shot. Over all it depends on you and your jugement as to what course of action to take. Keep in mind there could be more then one, and how your trying to hold them or hide, the other one could be behind you, or hurting others in the house.

Its a judgement call.
and one that you wont know is right or wrong until its over.
Your also assuming you have time to call the police. who may or may not even answer your call for help. the police do not have to protect you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I agree that you have every right to defend your home and your life, like I said earlier, but I wouldn't just shoot at the first sign of a break-in. What if it was your son who'd forgotten his keys? It's been known to happen.
make a new son.. ok kidding.
that is why when there is gun in the house everyone needs to know and understand what needs to be followed. why would he break in if someone was already home?

if you hvae a gun, everyone that lives there needs to know, Do not just buy one and hide it. You need to spend time leaning to use it, lean what the best methods are for that firearm in a home defense situation, there are books on there things. Most mistakes area made by people who just hide them away, and forget they even hvae it until they hear a bump in the night.
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post #17 of 26
1/18/08 at 4:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
Exactly. Break into my home, the perp can meet the business end of my M1.

lol m1 is to big, for use in a house. i would suggest a shotgun that is ment to go along with like a campers back pack.

plus the sound of the pump action has a hugh effect on people that sound often alone is enough to send people running
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post #18 of 26
1/18/08 at 5:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
of course not. but also depends on what made me think there was someone in the House,. Such hmm the sounds of the door being kicked in, or something like that.


they should have found better friends,
ask the tiger if it matters.


better trial by 12 then carried by 6 its to late to worry about it after dead.

if they are broken into my house, then in my mind they are dangerous to myself,or anyone other living thing in my house. Sorry but i still remember i house broken into as a kid and the people that broke killed the guy, raped the wife, and nailed there pets to the wall.



if they are in my house, then they give up any right they have not to be shot. Over all it depends on you and your jugement as to what course of action to take. Keep in mind there could be more then one, and how your trying to hold them or hide, the other one could be behind you, or hurting others in the house.

Its a judgement call.
and one that you wont know is right or wrong until its over.
Your also assuming you have time to call the police. who may or may not even answer your call for help. the police do not have to protect you.



make a new son.. ok kidding.
that is why when there is gun in the house everyone needs to know and understand what needs to be followed. why would he break in if someone was already home?

if you hvae a gun, everyone that lives there needs to know, Do not just buy one and hide it. You need to spend time leaning to use it, lean what the best methods are for that firearm in a home defense situation, there are books on there things. Most mistakes area made by people who just hide them away, and forget they even hvae it until they hear a bump in the night.
That's a really awesome post, Bruce, and you answered my questions really thoroughly. I'm pretty much of the opinion, too, that if you're going to break into someone's house, then that someone is going to assume that you're dangerous, and you could get shot, so therefore don't do it. But still, I did wonder what happens in situations with people who are just trigger-happy, and fear and adrenaline can rob you of your normal caution.
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post #19 of 26
1/18/08 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
Just to update:

Two people have died, now, and both were juveniles (that is, not the person living there, so both were home invaders). The police report lists both as 'Aggravated Homicide', and of course doesn't list the names or ages.
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post #20 of 26
1/19/08 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Yea. The only bit that catches me on not being totally sure it's self-defense is the way it happened. The man who died had numerous gunshot wounds, the other guy was pistol-whipped.

Then again, thank god I've never been in the situation.

What about the illegal ownership of the gun?
The pistol whipped guy was the tenant.
The man who died with multiple gun shot wounds was the alleged robber.
Right now it sounds like self-defense to me.
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post #21 of 26
1/19/08 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
To all those who indicated they would shoot people if they tried to break into their homes, does that mean shoot first and ask questions later? What if it was some kid on a dare? What if it wasn't anyone dangerous at all? Would you just shoot them? Or would you hole them up with the gun pointed and keep them there until you called the police? I'm interested - because my hope is that I would do the latter. I'm afraid I can't just do the `shoot on sight' thing. I agree that you have every right to defend your home and your life, like I said earlier, but I wouldn't just shoot at the first sign of a break-in. What if it was your son who'd forgotten his keys? It's been known to happen.
I know I'm a terrible shot, so it would more a "shoot to scare" than a "shoot to kill". Just enough to make them damage their pants.

Even if I could aim correctly, I would aim to injure. I would be fair enough to call 911 afterwards to make sure they receive medical attention as soon as possible
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post #22 of 26
1/19/08 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
they should have found better friends,
ask the tiger if it matters.
Great analogy
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post #23 of 26
1/20/08 at 2:21am
If I could hear the person breaking in I'd probably warn them I'm armed and let he/she decide at that moment if risking their life further by continuing to climb through the window or come through the door would be in their best interest or not. Ideally, I'd like to detain the perp until the police arrive but that isn't feasible in all situations.

If the person was actually in the house I'd take that as a direct threat to my safety and that of my loved ones. I wouldn't hesitate to use deadly force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98
lol m1 is to big, for use in a house. i would suggest a shotgun that is ment to go along with like a campers back pack.

plus the sound of the pump action has a hugh effect on people that sound often alone is enough to send people running
LOL...true about the pump action shotgun. You'll hurt the feelings of my M1 if you tell it he's too big for home defense. How about if I just use the bayonet and tickle his ribs as he climbs through the window? Give him a painful reminder of a bad career choice.
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post #24 of 26
1/20/08 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essayons89 View Post
LOL...true about the pump action shotgun. You'll hurt the feelings of my M1 if you tell it he's too big for home defense. How about if I just use the bayonet and tickle his ribs as he climbs through the window? Give him a painful reminder of a bad career choice.

lol in that case you just turned your m1 into a spear i guess that will work also.

But really there are lots of reasons you dont want to use something like that.Or some types of hand guns. i dont know if you live in apartment, or house. But higher speed shells can pass thru, or if you miss go though a wall.
so, that is part of the reason why i would stay away from using somethign like the m1 in a inside home defenese situation. along with you or me or whoever may be scared, and a shotgun just makes it more easy to hit.
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post #25 of 26
1/20/08 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
I know I'm a terrible shot, so it would more a "shoot to scare" than a "shoot to kill". Just enough to make them damage their pants.

Even if I could aim correctly, I would aim to injure. I would be fair enough to call 911 afterwards to make sure they receive medical attention as soon as possible
I've always heard that if you are going to get that gun out, then you better be prepared to shoot to kill.
Cause if you aren't ready, then that burglar can get that gun off you and shoot you with it.
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post #26 of 26
1/21/08 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
lol in that case you just turned your m1 into a spear i guess that will work also.

But really there are lots of reasons you dont want to use something like that.Or some types of hand guns. i dont know if you live in apartment, or house. But higher speed shells can pass thru, or if you miss go though a wall.
so, that is part of the reason why i would stay away from using somethign like the m1 in a inside home defenese situation. along with you or me or whoever may be scared, and a shotgun just makes it more easy to hit.
I know and understand what you are saying about the safety concerns, you're right. I live in an apartment. There's a house directly across the street. If I would happen to miss (never qualified less than expert or very high as a sharpshooter in the service) it would more than likely go into that house, which isn't something I would want to happen. What I want to get, probably later this year, is a Glock model 38 (it's a .45). I know that's also a large caliber round but I trust the stopping power of a .45 more than that of a 9mm.

To get back on topic: Has there been anymore news regarding the case?
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