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PTS dogs after vicious attacks - Page 2

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by cococat View Post
Schutzhund is NOT aggressive attack training. If you have ever trained at a club or owned a competitive SchH dog you would know the difference. Many clubs (not all) are filled with obedient dogs and dog savy responsible dog owners. SchH is a SPORT, not protection/attack training, that is a whole other ball game.

SchH has three main parts that equal weight is given to, protection is one of them (obedience and tracking are the others), however, a good SchH dog will have good nerve and be very confident and stable. Un-stable dogs do not make good SchH competitors. A fearful dog is NOT a good protector. A confident stable dog is. Character is very important. Listening to the handler is very important.

A part of SchH training before they can even compete for titles is a temperament test (BH) with all sorts of training around people with lots of obedience, this is both on lead and off lead.

Futhermore, SchH training takes place over many years. The protection is not started until the dog is much older as it is a sport, a process, and is very demanding on the dog and takes hours of training and dedication on the part of the handler. You cannot blame SchH for the behavior and temperament problems that might have been inherient in that dog and there is no telling what the first owner was like!
My experience of Schutzhund training is obviously different from yours, and I live where it originated. There are far too many clubs dominated by people on a power trip, who use their dogs to increase their self-esteem, IMO. I have experience with Airedales, Shepherds, St. Bernards, Boxers, Danes, and Labradors, not to mention obedience training and agility. A close friend trains search and rescue dogs (earthquake, corpse, and, as of late, water rescue with Newfoundlands).

I really don't believe Schutzhund training is appropriate or called for in a family pet, and I'm not about to change my mind, after seeing too many "products" of that training end up in shelters and mostly euthanized. There may be some responsible clubs and owners, but IME, they're few and far between.
post #32 of 39
Hmm, this is kinda a toughie for me to answer. I know people always say, "its all in the owners" but...I have 2 examples of dogs that turned mean for NO reason, and the dogs once belonged to me.

Example 1) My boxer...got him when he was a puppy(like 8 weeks old) raised him with love, and care. Never abused this dog-ever. He never got yelled at. We moved into a house, and apparently the people that lived there before us had a dog that had parvo. My dog(even though he had ALL his shots) contacted parvo. Horrible horrible thing. We spent like $300 some dollars on him, got him all better. But after that he was NEVER the same dog He decided he only liked DH and I. I found out the hard way that he didnt like people.....he bust thru our glass door one day and went after a couple riding their bikes. He didnt bite or injure them, but I bet he would of if I hadnt been there to catch him. He also chased my friends daughter, once again not biting, just growling. Well we decided that since I was pregnant we didnt want to take the chance of him hurting our new baby(obviously he wasnt placeable) so we had him pts........I cried for DAYS. He was my baby!! I hated having to do that to him, but it wasnt fair to have a new baby and take any chances.

Phew, that was longer than I expected lol....

Example 2) A family dog-once again raised since 6 weeks old. Never abused. Always loved. Always around other pets. Decided one day he didnt like cats. Well once again, had to make the awful decision to put him down.

So I am kinda undecided about my answer. It is awful when a kid gets mauled, yes. But most the time the owner doesnt want to take any chances of the dog attacking, so they euthanize. Its sad, but true.
post #33 of 39
If a dog, or any animal, brutally attacks a human once, it will do it again. Once they have that scent for blood, they never lose it. So while it is a sad thing, I think it's the best thing. It would be different if a child was teasing the dog and it just nipped the child. But to kill or horribly maim is a different story.

In most places in the US there is protocol that any animal that visciously attacks, meaning maims or kills a human, is PTS. Often if a parent is involved they end up killing the animal before the officials can. When I was young my best friend's sister's baby was killed by a pet Raccoon. Yeah I know... stupid idea to have a pet raccoon. She had turned her back for 3 minutes and the raccoon dragged the baby out of the crib and killed the baby. I won't say what it did because it is very disturbing and gross. That girl was never the same. In fact she ended up in an institution because after that she kidnapped her sisters baby (my friend). She really thought it was her baby. In that case it was the boyfriend who ended up shooting the raccoon before the authorities got there. Otherwise, He would have been destroyed by animal control anyway.
post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by catloverin_ks View Post
Example 1) My boxer...got him when he was a puppy(like 8 weeks old) raised him with love, and care. Never abused this dog-ever. He never got yelled at. We moved into a house, and apparently the people that lived there before us had a dog that had parvo. My dog(even though he had ALL his shots) contacted parvo. Horrible horrible thing. We spent like $300 some dollars on him, got him all better. But after that he was NEVER the same dog He decided he only liked DH and I. I found out the hard way that he didnt like people.....he bust thru our glass door one day and went after a couple riding their bikes. He didnt bite or injure them, but I bet he would of if I hadnt been there to catch him. He also chased my friends daughter, once again not biting, just growling. Well we decided that since I was pregnant we didnt want to take the chance of him hurting our new baby(obviously he wasnt placeable) so we had him pts........I cried for DAYS. He was my baby!! I hated having to do that to him, but it wasnt fair to have a new baby and take any chances.

Phew, that was longer than I expected lol....

Example 2) A family dog-once again raised since 6 weeks old. Never abused. Always loved. Always around other pets. Decided one day he didnt like cats. Well once again, had to make the awful decision to put him down.

So I am kinda undecided about my answer. It is awful when a kid gets mauled, yes. But most the time the owner doesnt want to take any chances of the dog attacking, so they euthanize. Its sad, but true.
So you put to sleep a young dog with prey drive (chasing bikes is prey drive, chasing is prey drive!) and you put to sleep a dog that didn't like cats??? These don't sound like "aggressive dogs" from your post
post #35 of 39
There have been some interesting posts here - obviously people with a lot of knowledge. I just wanted to add one more thing. There is no such thing EVER as a dog that just `turns' or attacks for `no reason'. There is ALWAYS a reason. Just because we don't know what it might always be, doesn't mean it isn't there. No dog just `goes mean'. Doesn't happen. I don't care if it was raised in the most loving home in the world, no dog ever `turns' for no reason at all.
post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
My experience of Schutzhund training is obviously different from yours, and I live where it originated. There are far too many clubs dominated by people on a power trip, who use their dogs to increase their self-esteem, IMO. I have experience with Airedales, Shepherds, St. Bernards, Boxers, Danes, and Labradors, not to mention obedience training and agility. A close friend trains search and rescue dogs (earthquake, corpse, and, as of late, water rescue with Newfoundlands).

I really don't believe Schutzhund training is appropriate or called for in a family pet, and I'm not about to change my mind, after seeing too many "products" of that training end up in shelters and mostly euthanized. There may be some responsible clubs and owners, but IME, they're few and far between.
So you live in Germany? Yes, our experiences have been much different. I understand their breeding requirements are different there, some breeds require SchH training BEFORE they can ever be bred. And no, it hasn't "ruined" the breeds. lol. So that means some living in Europe only breed SchH1 (and above) to others like that with SchH titles and they are not creating monsters! Seriously. It isn't as terrible as you say or else hundreds of owners and dogs would not be doing this and only breeding those dogs with SchH titles, many are placed as pets too in Euro countries. This is the way it is done over there and you don't hear about mass dog attacks and it messing up the breed and messing up the dogs. The sport is more than that. There are lots of levels and it requires a massive time commitment and a stable dog. Temperament tests are worked into the SchH1title.

Yes, there are some clubs that are in it for egos and it is beyond digusting to me, some aren't. I have been to several different types and the people REALLY do make the club. My thing is more so tracking, obedience, conformation, and agility - which I do with AKC.

Honestly, most of the pets I see in rescue have no training and no one works with them much at all. Sorry your experiences have been negative, but I assure you there are differences between "attack" training and the sport of SchH protection training. I know a good number of confident and stable SchH dogs living with kids and snuggling on the couch with their owners at night all across the world.
post #37 of 39
I think everyone is getting a little carried away here with judgments and excuses. In general, most people can barely be responsible for themselves.........
post #38 of 39
I have been working at a shelter for going on 3 1/2 years.

I see aggressive dogs everyday. I am a believer of circumstance. I listen to the facts then I pass judgement.

If a dog attacks a person for no reason, unprovoked. They should be euthanized. I don't believe that a dog can be rehabilitated to the point one will know 100% that the dog will never bit again. If someone tried to sell me this lie I wouldn't believe it.

I had a woman who adopted a dog through a shelter. The dog was surrendered because it didn't like cats. She adopted it anyways. She had cats. Two years would go by she thought " Surely that must of not been the reason they surrendered the dog" or maybe she thought she rehabilitated the dog. Then one day she came home to find her two cats shredded to peices. Dead. She surrendered the dog to our facility.

Now, a kid/person pokin' around on a dog, the dog bites...Hmmmm? Dog should not be punish for protecting itself the only way it knows how. My dog bit a kid, the kid grabbed my dogs tounge after being told not to do it. Do I blame my dog? Hell no.

When I worked at an owner release facility, I would have to explain to peeps why we don't adopt out aggressive dogs. No person comes to a shelter looking for a dog that attacks people. They go to shelters to get family members who they can trust and love with their family. In the end, no one wants your dog for the same reason you are giving it up.

I have in my bussiness seen all breeds of all types. I have no stereo type as what I would view as the most aggresive breed. A mean dog is just that. A mean dog.

People don't think about the fact that when dogs are taken to shelters, people volunteer their time to walk these dogs and socialize with them. Can you imagine the liability alone there?

While it's a sad state of affairs, and I do value the life of an animal. I understand more times than not it's a training issue. Dogs do fall through the cracks. Just like people. It is what it is.
post #39 of 39
I know there are a lot of reasons dogs bite

and I know a lot of kids who I would bite if I were a dog

but, I personally do not think any domestic animal that is dangerous to a human should be kept alive.

There are just too many nice animals that need homes.
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