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Want more illegals coming in from MX??

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071217/...FPAGWVU0wXIr0F

Well, if the USA doesn't do something more positive about sharing Earth (in this case, the Rio Grande and Colorado rivers), that's what we'll get.
it's starting to seem like the problem parallels that of feral cat colonies. I know it's unethical to even suggest TNR for people, but, logically speaking.....I don't think that I dare to speak more.
Any other solutions from fellow TCSers??
post #2 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsknowme View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071217/...FPAGWVU0wXIr0F

Well, if the USA doesn't do something more positive about sharing Earth (in this case, the Rio Grande and Colorado rivers), that's what we'll get.
it's starting to seem like the problem parallels that of feral cat colonies. I know it's unethical to even suggest TNR for people, but, logically speaking.....I don't think that I dare to speak more.
Any other solutions from fellow TCSers??
First of all, I firmly believe that millions of humans should be TNRed. Let's start with the folks at PETA.

Secondly, and this is firmly tongue-in-cheek: The grand old USA was built on lands that were, in MOST cases, stolen from other countries, including Mexico & Spain. Not to mention all the lands that were stolen from Native Americans.

So what would make anyone think that from here going forward that the leaders of the USA would act any differently? Historically, if we decide it is OURS, we are going to TAKE IT, and if you try to fight for it, you will DIE.

Yep. Gotta love this great country of ours.
post #3 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
Secondly, and this is firmly tongue-in-cheek: The grand old USA was built on lands that were, in MOST cases, stolen from other countries, including Mexico & Spain. Not to mention all the lands that were stolen from Native Americans.

So what would make anyone think that from here going forward that the leaders of the USA would act any differently? Historically, if we decide it is OURS, we are going to TAKE IT, and if you try to fight for it, you will DIE.
:
Thank you for this.
post #4 of 19
I live with a man who opted out of having 2 legged children because the world is so overpopulated. I agreed to his neuter as a birthday present one year. It is people that are drying up the natural resources on the planet, like the Rio Grande and Colorado rivers, as well as many other sources of water. We are 2 meals away from anarchy.

TNR? Perhaps the "trap" part is a bit harsh, but an interesting idea. Maybe VNR (voluntary neuter and return) or PNR (promoted neuter and return).
post #5 of 19
Why did you choose to title this thread as you did? There was only one mention of emigration in the whole article. It's about a failure to conserve resources, as well as too many people insisting on living in places (on both sides of the border) that can't support them. Why are so many people trying to farm in the desert?

It's a failure of conservation, and it is happening more and more often.
post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Why did you choose to title this thread as you did? There was only one mention of emigration in the whole article. It's about a failure to conserve resources, as well as too many people insisting on living in places (on both sides of the border) that can't support them. Why are so many people trying to farm in the desert?

It's a failure of conservation, and it is happening more and more often.
I think I can answer for the OP here. The article states: "thousands of local farmers say their livelihoods are at stake because Mexico was this year forced by a bilateral treaty to transfer millions of liters of water" and AS A RESULT there are more and more of them coming over the borders illegally to pursue a livlihood that is no longer possible in farmlands that have been in operation for generations.

The thread title made COMPLETE sense to me!

Are you proposing, for example, that Las Vegas should SHUT DOWN IMMEDIATELY as it is located in the desert and sucks the Colorado river dry? Are you proposing, for example, that Egyptions should give up living in an arid area and move somewhere else because attempting to farm in the desert is pointless?

Maybe all these folks that for years have been SUCCESSFULLY farming in those areas should come and live with you, so you can tell them how stupid they have all been for trying to eke a living out of an unfriendly environment.
post #7 of 19
I think this article mostly pertains to the Rio Grande. BUT, I will tell you what little I know about the Colorado.

I live by Hoover Dam and it you look at the spillway, there is tons of water going south from the Dam. But California probably is getting most of it I imagine.
post #8 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
First of all, I firmly believe that millions of humans should be TNRed. Let's start with the folks at PETA.

Secondly, and this is firmly tongue-in-cheek: The grand old USA was built on lands that were, in MOST cases, stolen from other countries, including Mexico & Spain. Not to mention all the lands that were stolen from Native Americans.

So what would make anyone think that from here going forward that the leaders of the USA would act any differently? Historically, if we decide it is OURS, we are going to TAKE IT, and if you try to fight for it, you will DIE.

Yep. Gotta love this great country of ours.

Yes, I do love my country with all its' faults. Don't feel to bad for Spain, they have a much worse track record than we do.
The Spanish did stop human sacrifice though, that is a good thing, don't you think?
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think this article mostly pertains to the Rio Grande. BUT, I will tell you what little I know about the Colorado.

I live by Hoover Dam and it you look at the spillway, there is tons of water going south from the Dam. But California probably is getting most of it I imagine.
The reason I mentioned the Colorado is because it is draining dry - same as the Rio.

Just because you see a bunch of water leaving the dam does NOT mean that it is by any means an unlimited resource.
post #10 of 19
I did not mean to say it was. But it is NOT "draining dry" by any stretch of the imagination.
post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
At one time, I was able to find an internet article about California planning to build an underground dam at the US/Mx border to keep Colorado river water from seeping across; that will stop food production for millions of Mexicans and So. Cal people (those tomatoes that are labled from Mexico come from there) not to mention utterly destroy riparian habitat. The benefit of doing this is that it will allow developers to install at housing for at least 300,000 more people in southeast San Diego county.
A lawsuit filed by Mexico in US federal court was thrown out because the "injury" occurs in the US (the Supreme Court ruled against Shell in a Peruvian Indian tribe v. Shell because the injuries happened in Peru by an American company ); only lawsuits by the environmentalists were the ones accepted.
Anyway, I lost my copy of the article (I found it while visiting the CA Dept. of Water Resources website) and can't find anything about it anywhere. That is why I like FSTV. I wanted to learn more before the barrier is finished; IMO, such a move should be determined by the voters - maybe we Californians don't want any more housing in the desert; maybe we WANT Mexican farmers to continue to be able to farm; heck, maybe we want CALIFORNIAN famers to be able to keep supplying us with the best-priced, safest food in the world
Bottom line, though, is that the water situation is going to make it harder for people survive if they stay south of the border. If they're gonna suffer & die anyway, might as well go trying to make it into the US as opposed to just giving up & die where they're at. Being an American, I just gotta admire that kind of spirit
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I did not mean to say it was. But it is NOT "draining dry" by any stretch of the imagination.
And it is exactly that kind of thinking that is going to be the downfall of all of human civilization on a global basis.

Potable water is not like Doritos chips. We can't simply "make more."

Hence the reports of countries like Mexico and Autralia building desalinization plants. Something the USA better get on board with really fast.
post #13 of 19
How much water comes down the Colorado depends on how much snow north of us in the Rockies. It snows every year.

I do believe in water conservation and I do believe we should build desalinization plants also. I don't mean to minimize the problem, believe me.
We are under drought restrictions here right now and have been for years.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
I think I can answer for the OP here. The article states: "thousands of local farmers say their livelihoods are at stake because Mexico was this year forced by a bilateral treaty to transfer millions of liters of water" and AS A RESULT there are more and more of them coming over the borders illegally to pursue a livlihood that is no longer possible in farmlands that have been in operation for generations.

The thread title made COMPLETE sense to me!

Are you proposing, for example, that Las Vegas should SHUT DOWN IMMEDIATELY as it is located in the desert and sucks the Colorado river dry? Are you proposing, for example, that Egyptions should give up living in an arid area and move somewhere else because attempting to farm in the desert is pointless?

Maybe all these folks that for years have been SUCCESSFULLY farming in those areas should come and live with you, so you can tell them how stupid they have all been for trying to eke a living out of an unfriendly environment.
If you notice, I said "too many people" not "people". So no, I am not saying any of those things.

What I am saying is that people need to use what resources they have wisely, and places that are hostile to human habitation need to do this maybe moreso than the rest of us. The recent population boom in Vegas does evidence this-- as in Arizona, New Mexico, Southern Texas, and northern Mexico.

The effects of sucking rivers and aquifers dry is well-known, as the people of the Aral Sea basin have learned http://www.redcross.org/news/in/asia/020410aral.html and elsewhere. eta: The above example is a pretty good analogy now that I think about it-- a powerful country (the USSR) used up a lot of the water that went to the Aral Sea for farming and other uses in a similarly arid area, and as a result another country's people have suffered drastically. There's a long documentary somewhere of a town that used to be a booming resort area, where the resort patios looked out over the sea and now look out over a desert while the town is largely deserted except for people dying of tuberculosis... and all that time, the USSR defended its use of the water, saying it wasn't running out and even so, they deserved it more than the people further downriver.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
And it is exactly that kind of thinking that is going to be the downfall of all of human civilization on a global basis.

Potable water is not like Doritos chips. We can't simply "make more."

Hence the reports of countries like Mexico and Autralia building desalinization plants. Something the USA better get on board with really fast.
Isn't the desalinization plant in El Paso, Texas?

From the common knowledge I've gathered L.A. gets its water mostly from the Colorado River and Northern California. The movie Chinatown was about how L.A. stole water from the Owens Valley in No. California.

L.A. is a huge drain on the environment. Our water supply gets dicier every year.
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
Secondly, and this is firmly tongue-in-cheek: The grand old USA was built on lands that were, in MOST cases, stolen from other countries, including Mexico & Spain. Not to mention all the lands that were stolen from Native Americans.

France, Spain and Mexico stole the North and Central American lands from the Native Americans first. So the real question is, can you steal something that was already stolen?
FWIW, I am of both Native American and European descent.

And you need to include the water issues for the Florida panhandle and Georgia in this discussion - very interesting reading.
post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of 4 View Post
And you need to include the water issues for the Florida panhandle and Georgia in this discussion - very interesting reading.
If you or anyone else here can supply a link, I'd love to read about what's going on in the other states - my time is very limited these days, and sometimes my comp is slow so having a link really helps.
It is so weird to think of southern states having drought....
post #18 of 19
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...ws-environment

This is a story on a meeting to divvy up the Colorado River.

The last paragraph makes the most important point. That there just isn't enough water to sustain the growth taking place now.

It seems California has grandfather rights to a large part of the water from the Colorado River.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...ws-environment

This article also discusses the urgent need to conserve water partly because of the drought affecting the Colorado River.
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
...Secondly, and this is firmly tongue-in-cheek: The grand old USA was built on lands that were, in MOST cases, stolen from other countries, including Mexico & Spain. Not to mention all the lands that were stolen from Native Americans. ...
Back then it was they who had the mostest and bestest guns that took the land; now it's they who have the mostest babies that will take it back.
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