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Disappointing vet visit.

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
I went to the vet yesterday to see about Toby's mysterious bald spots that he's developed over the last couple of weeks (see this thread: http://thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150058 ).

While there, I thought that I would get my money's worth out of the visit and ask her about the evo dry food and how much (or little) would be safe to feed to Toby. I brought the guarenteed analysis and ingredients from the bag and also printed out the nutrient analysis from EVO's website and took both with me to show her.

I was very disappointed about her response... And, I must say, that what everyone on here has said about vets knowing absolutely nothing about nutrition and getting their info from SD and other brand foods is absolutely true...

When I showed here the info, she said "wow, 50% protien, I've never heard of a food with that much protien before". Next, when asked how much I should feed him for weight loss she said...."Let me go get something for reference". I had high hopes, but then she came back with the science diet perscription feeding guidelines binder and everything went downhill from there...

I will give her points for trying, but she only gave me a vague reccomendation based on how much a high protien SD perscription diet reccomended feeding for weightloss....I think they said 3/4 cup a day of the SD formula that had only 412 calories per cup... EVO has ~612 listed and 514 or so of actual usable calories... Yet, she still said "I couldn't live with myself if I fed a cat as big as yours less than 3/4 cup of food a day." I told her that I thought cats only needed about 20 calories per lb a day for maintence usually and she said "well, you're well ahead of me on this". *sigh*

She then went on to say that she didn't mind a little extra weight on a cat, but when I replied that I thought it was better for him to loose weight because of his heart condition she said "oh, yes, it would be better for him to weigh a little less."

BTW, she also suggested that I cut back his wet food from what I was feeding to about 2tbsp a day.

Now, in her defense, she is not my regular vet (my vet was either off or out sick, I didn't ask). However, I don't think I'll be feeding Toby 3/4 c. EVO dry plus wet food a day.

Argh.
post #2 of 20
MOST ie 90% of vet do not know about nutrition and 90% of them dont know of TRUE premiums exist ...

does TOBY get canned???? that would be the best for wt loss
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Yes, I had been feeding him a mostly wet diet for the last 3 or so weeks...but, I thought that some of the wet I was feeding while waiting on the "good stuff" I ordered to come in, might have caused a food allergy reaction (some of it was quite "fishy"). I have canned cal natural chicken, evo 95% beef (dog, but garlic freed), and 95% chicken/turkey now so I am planning on feeding him ~1/3 c. EVO dry and about 5 oz of wet food a day. That is IF I can get him to eat that much wet... I try to give ~2.5 oz of wet at a time, but he won't eat that much in a sitting and I can only feed 3 times a day.

I'd like to feed mostly wet (because, as you said, it's good for weight loss AND urinary, etc.). But, I'm not sure how to get him to eat that much wet food... He much prefers dry (i.e. will choose the dry always over wet) and he won't eat that much wet at a time (and I hate to put such $$ food out and have it waste or have the kittens "steal" it).

I wanted to switch him to EVO as the dry part of his diet because I didn't want to deal with having to keep two kinds of dry food (and because the nutro weight management wasn't doing anything for his weight).

Art
post #4 of 20
have you tried some of the decent yet really tasty ones like meow mix to aid in wet consupmtion
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgecko View Post
I was very disappointed about her response...
Argh.
Sorry you had such a disappointing visit. Unfortunately, in depth study of nutrition is not a core part of standard veterinary training. There are mountains of good data out there, then agian there are even larger mountains of opinion masking as legitimate data. Sadly, the later group is pushed forward and is most readily available. I'd recommend checking at a local library and look up the nutritional information in the medical or veterinary medical areas (NOT the "pet" area.) You'll probably need to go to your central library or, better yet, the library of a university (with a Veterinary School if possible.) As I said, there are mountains of data so don't be overwhelmed. With some patient research I suspect you'll pretty quickly start to get a handle on what is best versus what is simply someone's opinion of what is best.
post #6 of 20
A lot of vets seem to know very little about premium cat foods. I am also usually dissapointed after I take my cat to the vet. I feel that I am charged a lot, yet things aren't explained to me. And I can't get an answer as to what problem my cat actually has.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharmsDad View Post
Sorry you had such a disappointing visit. Unfortunately, in depth study of nutrition is not a core part of standard veterinary training. There are mountains of good data out there, then agian there are even larger mountains of opinion masking as legitimate data. Sadly, the later group is pushed forward and is most readily available. I'd recommend checking at a local library and look up the nutritional information in the medical or veterinary medical areas (NOT the "pet" area.) You'll probably need to go to your central library or, better yet, the library of a university (with a Veterinary School if possible.) As I said, there are mountains of data so don't be overwhelmed. With some patient research I suspect you'll pretty quickly start to get a handle on what is best versus what is simply someone's opinion of what is best.
Common sense is best ... many vet books are at best out dated as the science of food is going faster than the texts ... Online many university s that do such work have there finding and most is readily avail to most ... I do suggest the natural vet journals as they have loads of time proven info
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
Sharky- yes, actually meow mix was one of the ones that he was eating and one of the ones that I felt was too "fishy". He will eat just about any flavor of food but will lick the "juice" from the "chunks in gravy" types rather than eat the meat portion. It isn't that he doesn't eat it, he usually acts like he "wolfs" it down. But, he doesn't eat as much as I would think that a 14lb cat would.... If I feed him, say, 1/4 of a 5.5oz can, he can usually eat all of that, but if I offer him half of a 5.5oz can he can't consume nearly all of it in a sitting (maybe due to his low metabolism). So, I am worried about him getting the nutrients/calories he does need from wet, if he won't eat enough of it.

It would be one thing if I was at home all day and could feed him 4-6 small meals, as I'm sure he would consume enough then, but getting him to eat enough in 2-3 meals is taxing.

I think he eats the dry food better/faster because it is probably "less filling" feeling to him (besides the taste issues).

My Ideal feeding situation for him (at this point) would be to get him to eat 2 meals of wet a day and 1 meal of the dry EVO in the evening... But trying to figure out how much of each he needs is what is taxing.

Art
post #9 of 20
well the dry is harder on the digestive tract so ask the normal vet about dry in the moening and the wet later ... I will send you a PM in a few
post #10 of 20
My cat BooBoo is 15 lbs and the vet told me that some cats are just naturally larger and that b/c of how much I was feeding him I couldn't go any lower and in fact needed to feed more! (I had him down to 1/3 cup)
I hope everything gets better for you!! Please keep us posted!
post #11 of 20
You're right, most vets don't know much about nutrition, but some of us have a special interest and you just need to know who to ask or where to find the right information.

There is a calculation you can do to determine the amount of calories your cat should eat per day. Then you see how many calories per cup/can, and feed your cat accordingly. Also, feed to your cats IDEAL weight, not their current weight.

The RER is the "resting energy requirement" which is the amount of calories your cat needs to survive. Most cats are very inactive and do not need additional calories for daily activities. If you have an active cat, then there are multipliers in addition to this formula.

To help in your calculations, 1 kg = 2.2 pounds.

Less than 2 kg \tRER = 70 * (Body Weight in kg)0.75
Greater than or equal to 2 kg \tRER = (30 * (Body Weight in kg)) + 70

So, if your cat weighs 15 pounds that means he weighs 6.8 Kg (15/2.2). However, most cats should weigh 9 or 10 pounds, so you would want to calculate the caloric needs for a 10 pound (4.5 kg).

So, the caloric needs of a 10 pound cat are 30 * 4.5 + 70 = 205 calories.

If you are feeding Evo dry at 612 calories per cup, then your cat can have 1/3 cup of dry Evo per day. (205/612 = .33 cup)

If I were you, I would feed 100% canned food just to help your fat cat feel full. Most fat cats are very demanding when it comes to food and this can make a strict diet plan almost impossible for many people. Also, the evo canned did not give my cats raging diarrhea whereas the dry did, it was just too rich for my fat cats who were raised on high fiber high carb diets.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by glitch View Post
My cat BooBoo is 15 lbs and the vet told me that some cats are just naturally larger and that b/c of how much I was feeding him I couldn't go any lower and in fact needed to feed more! (I had him down to 1/3 cup)
I hope everything gets better for you!! Please keep us posted!
What?!?!?!! No way!! Fat cats are not supposed to be fat any more than people are!! Diet and exercise make fat cats skinny just the same as any other animal (dog, people, ferret).

EVERYONE should have a copy of this chart for their home... Is YOUR cat overweight??

http://www.purina.com/cats/health/BodyCondition.aspx
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misskiwi67 View Post
You're right, most vets don't know much about nutrition, but some of us have a special interest and you just need to know who to ask or where to find the right information.

There is a calculation you can do to determine the amount of calories your cat should eat per day. Then you see how many calories per cup/can, and feed your cat accordingly. Also, feed to your cats IDEAL weight, not their current weight.

The RER is the "resting energy requirement" which is the amount of calories your cat needs to survive. Most cats are very inactive and do not need additional calories for daily activities. If you have an active cat, then there are multipliers in addition to this formula.

To help in your calculations, 1 kg = 2.2 pounds.

Less than 2 kg \tRER = 70 * (Body Weight in kg)0.75
Greater than or equal to 2 kg \tRER = (30 * (Body Weight in kg)) + 70

So, if your cat weighs 15 pounds that means he weighs 6.8 Kg (15/2.2). However, most cats should weigh 9 or 10 pounds, so you would want to calculate the caloric needs for a 10 pound (4.5 kg).

So, the caloric needs of a 10 pound cat are 30 * 4.5 + 70 = 205 calories.

If you are feeding Evo dry at 612 calories per cup, then your cat can have 1/3 cup of dry Evo per day. (205/612 = .33 cup)

If I were you, I would feed 100% canned food just to help your fat cat feel full. Most fat cats are very demanding when it comes to food and this can make a strict diet plan almost impossible for many people. Also, the evo canned did not give my cats raging diarrhea whereas the dry did, it was just too rich for my fat cats who were raised on high fiber high carb diets.
I know that is the right chart but May I ask you to post where you got it helps folks
post #14 of 20
ohhh gosh I know. I took my overweight boy to the vets and asked about getting him to lost weight and her very knowledgable answer was 'to do what the bag said'
post #15 of 20
I thought my cat was fat too... Maybe they were just saying that they have different body sizes to make me feel better... *sigh* well I dont anymore.. what am I suppose to do, starve him??
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by glitch View Post
I thought my cat was fat too... Maybe they were just saying that they have different body sizes to make me feel better... *sigh* well I dont anymore.. what am I suppose to do, starve him??
No just like humans .. cats come in long and lean , long and stocky, short and stocky, short and lean .... all can be at a proper wt
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by glitch View Post
I thought my cat was fat too... Maybe they were just saying that they have different body sizes to make me feel better... *sigh* well I dont anymore.. what am I suppose to do, starve him??

No glitch, the vet might have been telling you your cat is carrying the weight well. You go by how much the ribs are palpable, not the scale per se. My vet told me when my cat was a kitten that he should weigh no more than 10 lbs. as an adult, but at his last checkup she went back on it and said that based on the way he looked (he is a long ass cat, and he has massive hind legs - it's probably because he's very athletic - he's something of a clumsy daredevil) he could get away with being about 11 lbs.

Do look at that body chart that someone else posted. If your cat does not have a belly, then he's probably fine. And if he does, there are things you can do aside for cutting food intake: you can try and get your cat to exercise more.

We knew our cat would be prone to being overweight due to his breed characteristics (he's mostly a DSH, and those tend to be lazy cats as adults) and the fact that he is an indoor only cat, so my husband and I started to play with him 2-3 times a day as a kitten, and got him used to being as active as he can manage in our 1 bedroom apartment. As a result, he is more active than most cats I know. I get him to chase a feather wand 1-2 times a day for 5-10 minutes, he has lots of solo toys that encourage him to be active (a catnip mat, a cat tree, and lots of squeaky balls and mice) and sometimes we also throw in a game of laser tag. It has made a difference in a good way: when he plays, he really tires himself out, so it counterbalances the amount of time he does spend sleeping and loafing around.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
No glitch, the vet might have been telling you your cat is carrying the weight well. You go by how much the ribs are palpable, not the scale per se. My vet told me when my cat was a kitten that he should weigh no more than 10 lbs. as an adult, but at his last checkup she went back on it and said that based on the way he looked (he is a long ass cat, and he has massive hind legs - it's probably because he's very athletic - he's something of a clumsy daredevil) he could get away with being about 11 lbs.

Do look at that body chart that someone else posted. If your cat does not have a belly, then he's probably fine. And if he does, there are things you can do aside for cutting food intake: you can try and get your cat to exercise more.

We knew our cat would be prone to being overweight due to his breed characteristics (he's mostly a DSH, and those tend to be lazy cats as adults) and the fact that he is an indoor only cat, so my husband and I started to play with him 2-3 times a day as a kitten, and got him used to being as active as he can manage in our 1 bedroom apartment. As a result, he is more active than most cats I know. I get him to chase a feather wand 1-2 times a day for 5-10 minutes, he has lots of solo toys that encourage him to be active (a catnip mat, a cat tree, and lots of squeaky balls and mice) and sometimes we also throw in a game of laser tag. It has made a difference in a good way: when he plays, he really tires himself out, so it counterbalances the amount of time he does spend sleeping and loafing around.
DSH( domestic shorthair) are not LAZY adult s by and large ... domestics are a total Mix of all cat breeds and thus some may be lazy and other s highly active
post #19 of 20
Perhaps lazy was not the best word I could have used. Unlike some breeds that are high energy and always about (bengals come to mind), DSH are very goal driven, psychologically speaking. According to the couple of Cat Fancier Association profiles I've read, DSH in this country were originally bred to be mousers and hunters of vermin, so they do tend to really need "moving targets" as an incentive to stay active. DSH that are indoors only would not have mice or other small prey to hunt (save for the occasional pest problem), so it is up to their human companions to provide them with the appropriate amount of simulated hunting to remain active.

Anyway, I think it works similarly to humans: the more energy they expend, the more fit they are going to be, and the less draconian the portion control will be. Plus I figure that if you provide enough stimulating play time, you can eliminate or curb food consumption out of boredom (it works with humans, too ).
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I know that is the right chart but May I ask you to post where you got it helps folks
I got the equation from a website, but changed it because I like RER better than the term they were using. The rest I calculated out myself. I usually just get out my nutrition book rather than googling the page, so I really don't have anything to post... sorry...
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