When is enough, enough?

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
As I've posted elsewhere I got a 4mo female kitten on Saturday. Junior (10mo male) will not tolerate her at all to say the least.

From the beginning I've had them separated in different parts of the apartment. At first Junior would hiss anytime she approached her side of the door. It has progressed now to the point that if she gets within 6 inches of the door Junior will physically attack the door. He does everything from standing up on his hind feet and hitting the door with his front paws to head butting it to an actual all-out body slam from several feet back. He hisses and spits the entire time until she backs off. He's also tearing up the bottom of the door with his clawing while trying to get her. Over lunch I finally put her in my bedroom so there is a complete room between them now. I'm concerned that Junior will end up hurting himself otherwise.

I am very close to getting rid of Junior and keeping the kitten. If so I will get another kitten for a playmate. But before I do that, does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about Junior's behavior? I know it's only been 4 days but I can't let it continue any longer.

Mez
 

white cat lover

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
22,206
Purraise
35
First of all, they won't be friends in 4 days. Try giving them 4 weeks. You can't just give up already.

It's also not fair to dump your resident cat because you brought an intruder into his home. I'd be mad, too.

This is normal.....you might get rid of Junior & get a new kitten, only to have them fight. You've got to give them time. Have you tried Feliway, Rescue Remedy, vanilla?

Heck....for 2 years Ophelia's been trying to kill a few of my other kitties. You don't get a kitty & expect them to get along right off the bat.....you've got to give them a chance.

Junior's acting normally. Give him time to adjust. Anytime you bring home a new kitty, there'll be an introduction process.
 

yosemite

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Apr 26, 2001
Messages
23,313
Purraise
81
Location
Ingersoll, ON
4 days is not nearly long enough for the cats to get on together. We kept Bijou and Mika separated for one full month when she first came to live with us. You'll need lots of patience and love.
 

gingersmom

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
8,028
Purraise
22
Junior is simply communicating to the intruder, I mean newcomer that HE is the Top Cat. It's is a natural dominance posturing.

Please try Feliway, and please have some patience. Max has been with us for 5 weeks, and Penny is now just starting to stop giving me the cold shoulder, but she lets Max know she is NOT happy that he is with us.

THere are a lot of great introduction threads on TCS - take some time and do some keyword searches on "intros" or "introductions" and read about other people's experiences. It might help.
 

katz4life

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
3,667
Purraise
2
They just need more time...don't give up! It can take a while for them to get adjusted but just have patience no matter how hard it may be at times.
Keep trying!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
I understand that 4 days isn't near long enough, but as I said I can't let Junior keep going on like he is or he'll hurt himself. I also can't keep them 2 rooms apart because then the introductions will never take place.

I've been using Feliway for a little over a month now but am waiting on a plugin refill at the moment. I do use the spray each morning and evening though. The first few days after I initially got the plugin I could tell a difference in Junior's overall behavior but not since then. As far as I can tell the spray isn't having any effect at all.

One thing I've wondered (but haven't dared test) is to see what happens if I let them in the same room (with me present, obviously). Maybe Junior is reacting so violently because the door is there and he can't get to her. If I put them together perhaps they'll just circle, hiss and growl, then leave each other alone. As I said, I'm not sure I have the guts to do that though.

Mez
 

white cat lover

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
22,206
Purraise
35
Any chance you can put up a screen door? (long shot, but figured I might ask)

If someone else lives with you & you both stand by with blankets, perhaps try introducing them. Or hold the new girl out for Junior to sniff with someone ready to nab him if he flips.
 

rang_27

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 28, 2002
Messages
4,304
Purraise
5
Location
Milwaukee, WI
I haven't followed your story at all so forgive me but is Junior neutered? This can make a big differnce in behavior. A 10 month old male is past puberty and if in-tact would react that way. If he has been neutered, I would say more time is needed. Have you tried taking a towel & rubbing down the kitten with it then bringing it out for him to smell? This may help him understand that it's just another kitty. When I brought Isaac home I was terrified that Jordan would freak. I do not recommend letting them together yet, but Jordan ran in the room after me & I didn't catch him. He took one look at Isaac hissed & smacked him on the head. Isaac layed down & Jordan sat back & watched as Isaac played. Then it was like a light bulb, Jordan got this look on his face like, "Hey I can play with that thing" and they've been buds ever since. That being said given your cats reaction I would not do a face to face just yet. I know it's hard, but give him a little time. Is there a reason you would get rid of him & not the new kitten? I'm a believer that the first cat there should be the one that stays. It will be much harder on him to adjust to a new home (not to mention he will be harder to find a home for) than for her.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
Originally Posted by white cat lover

Or hold the new girl out for Junior to sniff with someone ready to nab him if he flips.
I did try that. As soon as Junior got within 2 feet of me she started growling and he started hissing so I took her back to the other room.
 

gingersmom

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
8,028
Purraise
22
Originally Posted by mezlo

I did try that. As soon as Junior got within 2 feet of me she started growling and he started hissing so I took her back to the other room.
Growling and hissing is completely normal. So is fighting and wrestling, as long as there is no blood.

My Ginger screams like a banshee (it can be scary!) when she is irritated by another one of the cats. You have to allow them to work it out between themselves. As long as you freak out at the sound of a growl or hiss, you will never be able to put the two together.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
Originally Posted by Rang_27

I haven't followed your story at all so forgive me but is Junior neutered? This can make a big differnce in behavior. A 10 month old male is past puberty and if in-tact would react that way. If he has been neutered, I would say more time is needed. Have you tried taking a towel & rubbing down the kitten with it then bringing it out for him to smell? This may help him understand that it's just another kitty. When I brought Isaac home I was terrified that Jordan would freak. I do not recommend letting them together yet, but Jordan ran in the room after me & I didn't catch him. He took one look at Isaac hissed & smacked him on the head. Isaac layed down & Jordan sat back & watched as Isaac played. Then it was like a light bulb, Jordan got this look on his face like, "Hey I can play with that thing" and they've been buds ever since. That being said given your cats reaction I would not do a face to face just yet. I know it's hard, but give him a little time. Is there a reason you would get rid of him & not the new kitten? I'm a believer that the first cat there should be the one that stays. It will be much harder on him to adjust to a new home (not to mention he will be harder to find a home for) than for her.
He's been neutered for almost 3 months now. I haven't done the towel thing but I have put her in the bedroom and let Junior roam around the room she had been in last night (Here is the link to what transpired during that time).

I would get rid of Junior if it came down to it because, given his general personality, I would think he'd react the same to any new cat. I knew he wouldn't appreciate an intruder but I never expected him to react so violently. I really want 2 cats and keeping Junior most likely will not be conducive to that.

Mez

PS - This thread is a continuation of my original post, which is located here.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
Originally Posted by GingersMom

Growling and hissing is completely normal. So is fighting and wrestling, as long as there is no blood.

My Ginger screams like a banshee (it can be scary!) when she is irritated by another one of the cats. You have to allow them to work it out between themselves. As long as you freak out at the sound of a growl or hiss, you will never be able to put the two together.
I know growling/hissing is normal and if the two cats were closer in size to each other I probably wouldn't be so cautious. Junior is over 12 pounds while the kitten is maybe 2 or 3 pounds. It wouldn't take much for Junior to do some real damage to her if he wanted to. While she would be able to hide under the sofa or sectional where Junior couldn't reach her, she'd be trapped until I rescued her.
 

rang_27

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 28, 2002
Messages
4,304
Purraise
5
Location
Milwaukee, WI
I really wish I had more information for you, but I've been super lucky & the 2 introductions that I did went very well. The only other thing I can say for me was that I needed to relax. I found that the introductions went better when I was relaxed. I would get wound up & nervous and then the cats would be too. I'll think on it and if I come up with anything else I post. I'm sure that you want to keep both cats so stick with us and I'm sure we can all help you come up with something.
 

white cat lover

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
22,206
Purraise
35
This is why I shall never get a kitten. One they are annoying, 2 they are hard to introduce because they're too small.


What about the possiblity of setting up new kitty in a wire dog crate in her room, then letting Junior in & watching them closely?

(I'm just throwing out ideas here)
 

jennywhite686

TCS Member
Young Cat
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
78
Purraise
0
When we brought our kitten home our older cat HATED her too, for... maybe 10 days? Now he loves having her around. I let them in the same room together whenever I was there to watch them, from about day 2. They scrapped and hissed etc but neither cat actually hurt one another. Personally I think 4 days of no eye to eye contact with this 'intruder' is probably driving your resident cat crazy and its time to let them get a feel for one another and let him 'fight' your kitten. He'll win, the kitten will back down, and he'll feel happier knowing he can win. This is assuming there isnt a medical reason to keep them separate. Our cats still play fight constantly with no injuries, even though they're best friends. I think kittens are pretty instinctive, ours used to lie flat or roll over if she realized she was annoying the bigger cat
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
Originally Posted by jennywhite686

Personally I think 4 days of no eye to eye contact with this 'intruder' is probably driving your resident cat crazy and its time to let them get a feel for one another and let him 'fight' your kitten.
I've thought the same thing but don't have the guts to find out...

Originally Posted by jennywhite686

I think kittens are pretty instinctive, ours used to lie flat or roll over if she realized she was annoying the bigger cat
Funny you should say that because what puzzles me most about all of this is that the kitten will just sit there while Junior is hissing and spitting on the other side of the door. The only time she's reacted is the time I opened the door about 2 inches and Junior tried lunging through it at her. Either she's confident the door will protect her or she doesn't fully understand what Junior is doing.

Mez
 

larke

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Messages
2,278
Purraise
6
Location
SE Canada
I would err on the side of caution - she doesn't get it yet (and may not until it's too late). To me the mix is backwards - I would have gotten a young male for an older female, not the way you did it (obviously you had the older male first, of course), but a younger male for him would at least have evened things up a bit. The way it is now may never change as males usually see females as prey to some extent, or at least as objects of domination, and as he was resident to begin, never mind bigger, he may never even tolerate her presence, and she will have a life of hiding in corners. Not a good thing.
 

forensic

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
1,350
Purraise
2
Location
Buried under the cat
Originally Posted by mezlo

I would get rid of Junior if it came down to it because, given his general personality, I would think he'd react the same to any new cat. I knew he wouldn't appreciate an intruder but I never expected him to react so violently. I really want 2 cats and keeping Junior most likely will not be conducive to that.
I dunno... I couldn't get rid of any pet of mine, no matter how much I wanted more... I'd just wait, else I'd feel cruel.

Can you switch them places so he's forced to smell her everywhere and wait until he calms down there?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19

mezlo

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
304
Purraise
1
Location
Ad Astra Per Aspera
Well once again my pessimistic side shows it's face. I decided to put them together (in the half where she was staying) and see what happens. For the first minute or two Junior was really posturing and hissing/spitting at her. He never charged her but she definitely kept both eyes glued on him. After that began the mutual standoff. They would trade swipes at each other and also appeared to keep trying to get the jump on the other one. This went on for 30-45 minutes before Junior tired and laid down. After that, as long as she didn't get too close Junior would just keep a wary eye on her.

I then let them into the half where Junior was staying. Junior appeared much calmer over there and they started alternating playing with various toys. They would still hiss at each other occasionally but for the most part coexisted independently. Sometimes Junior would try to sniff her tail or touch noses and she would swipe at him and other times it was her trying to sniff his tail or touch noses and he would swipe at her.

After a while I herded them back to her half and again Junior got a little more agitated and again they alternated stalking each other and trading swipes. This went on for maybe 5 minutes before settling back down.

So long story short, I think there is definitely a future for both of them at my place.
 

robertm

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
452
Purraise
3
This is good news! Good for you for trying a different approach. Obviously you're nowhere near out of the woods just yet but at least you can sense that progress is being made.

You've invested a lot of time, energy and love in Junior already, and it would be a real shame to decide to give him up after only 4 days of behavior that you don't like. As others have already said, often these things take more time than we humans would prefer. But the cats are the ones who must set the pace and you're just going to have to be patient and understanding, as difficult as that can be sometimes.

Originally Posted by Larke

I would err on the side of caution - she doesn't get it yet (and may not until it's too late). To me the mix is backwards - I would have gotten a young male for an older female, not the way you did it (obviously you had the older male first, of course), but a younger male for him would at least have evened things up a bit. The way it is now may never change as males usually see females as prey to some extent, or at least as objects of domination, and as he was resident to begin, never mind bigger, he may never even tolerate her presence, and she will have a life of hiding in corners. Not a good thing.
I lurked for a long time before I joined this site, and I’ve read plenty of your posts, Larke, and I almost always like the advice that you give. But I respectfully disagree with this one. I think this is overly pessimistic and not really what Mezlo needs to hear. There must be plenty of cases where male and female cats live in relative harmony, even when the male was the resident cat. Both cats in this case are young enough where they should be more accepting of each other after the initial hostilities are worked out.

I personally feel that the personalities of the individual cats play a much more prominent role than genders.
 
Top