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Would anyone find this offensive? Religion related. - Page 4

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I know what you are saying Sarah. I just feel that if I word it that way I am leaving a tad, little bit of "if" to it and I don't feel any if and I get that uncomfortable feeling I am denying Jesus in a small way. Do you get what I mean at all? It is kind of hard to explain.
I think I know what you are saying. I posted this a few days ago. Now, forget the word fear, that was a poor choice of words, but I didn't know which other word to use. Is this close?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Now, this is an entirely opinionated answer, and their will probably be some people that don't agree and thats fine, but I don't want to argue it, just put it on the record.

I think a lot of it has to do with fear. Not like horror movie fear or anything, but those little nagging fears, the kind that hide in the back of your mind and tickle your ears.

In order for a person to be truly tolerant, and to think for the least little bit that someone with a different viewpoint might be just a little bit right, is the same thing to them as admitting that they themselves might be just a little bit wrong; and a lot of people can't deal with that personally as far as religion is concerned.

I let myself get too irritated in a spot or two and now I've backed off and brought in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and trying to lighten things up
post #92 of 114
I know exactly what you mean Cindy - because you believe it to be the truth for everyone, whether they believe it or not. That's just a symbol of how powerful that truth is for you. And that's actually nice.

But still - I'm pretty sure Jesus is completely aware of how profoundly true it is for you, and how much you believe it with your whole heart. I don't think that he would feel as though you are denying him - rather, (and this is just my interpretation) I think he would be proud of you for including everyone's feelings in your statements, whilst maintaining utter conviction yourself.
post #93 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I, as a private citizen, am NOT the State. As a PRIVATE citizen, I do not have to worry about the seperation of church and state. I think people are deliberately misinterpreting what this sign is. It is a sign on private property and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And a SIGN is not an an animate object so it cannot force anyone to do anything. Don't look at it.

You can be offended by the sign all you want. Write all the letter you want.
Go picket in front of the sign if you feel so inclined, you are free to do that.

But to say that you shouldn't have to see anything Christian in public in a country that is huge majority Christian is very unrealistic and totally unfair.
This is going to sound rude, but I must ask. Have you read anything I have posting in this thread?

I have never said that whomever posted this sign did not have a right to do so. I have also never said that "I" or anyone shouldn't have to see anything Christian in public. In fact I have said the opposite.

The fact that the majority of this country is of some form of Christian denomination does not make any of them correct in their beliefs. As Katie and Skippy have pointed out the number of Christian sects all believing they are "right" is astounding. I was once watching a Discovery or TLC program on religion that said there were over 1200 different ones.

In the US, majority when it comes to religion does impart the right to dominate and force ones believes upon the minority. The fact that throughout history the religious majority has decimated those who didn't follow their beliefs is the EXACT reason there is Separation of Church and State in the U.S.

It was your statement about being in the majority giving you the right to overload your faith over others that prompted the reminder of separation of Church and State. You applied your individual beliefs to the right of majority which does not extend to religious sects in this country.

Hilter was a very religious man. Very few saw the frightening monster he was until it was too late. He is a perfect example how small infringements can lead to gross annihilation if left unchecked.

How about the St. Bartholomews Day massacre, the first Crusade which slaughtered Christians that didn't believe in the Pope, or the Protestants vs Catholics in Ireland?

Saying Jesus is Lord ( or any other Deity) is one thing. But to add the over XXXXXX (town name) is purposely trying to subjugate others to one's belief system. It is not just celebrating ones beliefs, it is purposely pushing the limits of tolerance and respect trying to get it accepted as the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
And for the record, Jesus IS Lord of ALL.
You have just proven my point with this statement. The fact you capitalized IS and ALL shows your intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I am a Lutheran, I don't think I am one of the bunch that thinks they are right.
I know many people dislike the fact that 78% of the American population know that Christ is our Savior. That is what makes us all Christian.
It DOES NOT mean we aren't sinners anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I'm sorry if you see that as intolerent, I see it as truth and believe it with every fiber of my being and am still free to say it out loud.

Jesus, himself said, "The only way to the Father is through Me"

I have never (as one of the 78%) told anyone they are evil or they are going to Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
Don't feel as though you need to apologize, in fact, you just answered more than one question with this reply. I'm just not sure how to respond to it without sounding offensive.
I'm with Skippy and TwstyChick (whom I didn't quote).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
1) If someone pays for advertising on a billboard, they have the right to put whatever they want on it including advertising their religious viewpoint.

2) I would be offended by it, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to display it. I'm offended by some bumper stickers too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel47 View Post
Well said. I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that there's probably not much that won't give offense to somebody, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be seen by anybody, or that the person showing it does not have the right to do so.
It is not about having the right to post this or not. Religion ( at least in the US) is purposely separated and given different regulatory rules. These rules acknowledge the importance faith plays in the majority of people's lives and the fact that there are vast differences in these beliefs that should not be forced on any one person or minority.

There has been a steady determined attempt to encroach upon or ignore this restriction in the past decades.

Posting this sign is an example of this encroachment. It is a small one, but an encroachment non the less. Once this type of encroachment is accepted then the push begins to make the encroachment larger. Suddenly, Christian majority or not, we find ourselves in a state we don't want to be in.

I say let all proclaim their personal faith, for themselves, all they want. However, here in the US, do not proclaim your faith for me. Have the same respect for my minority rights as is given to their majority rights.

It really all comes down to being respectful and tolerant of others. That lack of respect and tolerance is what I find offensive, not the fact that someone has a particular faith.
post #94 of 114
Suddenly, I've got refrains of "The Inquisition" song and dance number going through my head.
post #95 of 114
I have heard Hitler called many things, but I have never heard he was a religious man.

No Ginger, no inquisition here. Everyone is free to believe what Jesus said or not. Totally free will on ALL of our parts.
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have heard Hitler called many things, but I have never heard he was a religious man.

No Ginger, no inquisition here. Everyone is free to believe what Jesus said or not. Totally free will on ALL of our parts.
Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. There has been a lot of speculation about the direction his beliefs went after he was imprisoned before his "rise to power", but I'm not sure if anybody really knows.

His army did have Gott mit uns (God is with us) on their belt buckles and hardware though
post #97 of 114
Thread Starter 
Wow, I can't believe the number of posts that came up while I was typing. I take too long, LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have heard Hitler called many things, but I have never heard he was a religious man.

No Ginger, no inquisition here. Everyone is free to believe what Jesus said or not. Totally free will on ALL of our parts.
CKBLV, here is just one website full of Hitler's quotes on his Christianity from many different sources, early and later speeches as well as Mein Kampf.

http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Hilter however is just ONE example of religious faith going overboard and being used for intolerance, hatred and genocide.

It is because of this potential (within any religion) that the founding fathers of this country did make specific allowances for religious freedom WITH expressed separation of Church and State. You must remember that even at that time this country was a "majority" of Christians and they still had the wisdom to see this need.

There is a difference between expressing and rejoicing in one's faith and overlording it. The line is a very fine one and great care should be taken by all to not cross it.
post #98 of 114
You know what is funny or should I say stupid, about this whole thing. This whole argument is about a stupid sign. Who cares what it reads!! If you do not like it, to bad, just ignore it. To me, it's like watching TV or listenting to the radio. When there is garbage on TV I don't like, I pick up the remote and change the channel. Same goes for the radio. Maybe I should write to the TV networks and tell them, how dare they put something on the air that I hate. How dare them be so intollerant of my feelings!! It's just a sign after all, it or the words are not hurting anyone. I could understand more, if the sign was worded where it was encouraging people to do something bad or hurtfull. I don't know, maybe I just have to many more important things to worry about in my life, like my rights being taken away, than to worry about a sign. Like I said, I have seen much worse.
post #99 of 114
That's all true, John, but the point with this sign I think is that you can't just switch it off or turn it down. It is an interesting phenomenon that once you are able to read, you cannot do anything BUT read any word that is put in front of you. So you will read it involuntarily - in effect, you are forced to read it, forced to see it. Sure, you don't have to agree and you can chuckle or snarl or do whatever you want to do, but your ability not to see it has been taken away.

Again - nobody is saying that these people don't have the RIGHT to put such a sign up, or even that it is wrong or shouldn't be allowed. But the fact remains that it is rude and offensive, regardless of the civil right of the people who bought it to put it up there. That is, after all, what tolerance is about. Simple manners. Surely that shouldn't be so hard to acknowledge?

Carol put it so brilliantly in The Golden Compass thread - about the difference between fact and faith. I would recommend people in this thread read that - whether pro or against. It's really a very good post.
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittymonsters View Post
It is not about having the right to post this or not. Religion ( at least in the US) is purposely separated and given different regulatory rules. These rules acknowledge the importance faith plays in the majority of people's lives and the fact that there are vast differences in these beliefs that should not be forced on any one person or minority.

There has been a steady determined attempt to encroach upon or ignore this restriction in the past decades.

Posting this sign is an example of this encroachment. It is a small one, but an encroachment non the less. Once this type of encroachment is accepted then the push begins to make the encroachment larger. Suddenly, Christian majority or not, we find ourselves in a state we don't want to be in.

I say let all proclaim their personal faith, for themselves, all they want. However, here in the US, do not proclaim your faith for me. Have the same respect for my minority rights as is given to their majority rights.

It really all comes down to being respectful and tolerant of others. That lack of respect and tolerance is what I find offensive, not the fact that someone has a particular faith.
I'm inclined to respond because you quoted me in your response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat
1) If someone pays for advertising on a billboard, they have the right to put whatever they want on it including advertising their religious viewpoint.

2) I would be offended by it, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to display it. I'm offended by some bumper stickers too.
As I said, I am offended too, but where do we draw the line? How would we even draw the line? You say that this is not about the right to post the billboard, but that it we are accepting of it.

Bumper stickers are just as offensive. Is there a difference? Bumper stickers are on private vehicles, but these vehicles travel on public roads.

Billboards are on private property, but are visible while traveling on public roads.

The only difference I see, is bumper stickers are smaller.
post #101 of 114
Hitler may have been religious, but he used fear and racism, not religion. He didn't hate the Jewish faith, he hated Jewish people, as well as Romani, Soviet, gays, and anyone who spoke out against him. He even measured people's hair color and nose width-- it was about genetics, as he understood them, not about religion. People always pull out Hitler as an example of an atheist, and as an example of religion gone wrong. He was neither. He was, though, a good example of what happens when you allow fear to dominate your judgment and allow your government to control every aspect of your daily life.

(Can you tell I went to the Holocaust Museum on Sunday?)

I don't understand what people think should be done about the sign. Ordering them to take it down would be a direct violation of their freedom of speech (not religion, speech). Letting them keep it up doesn't violate anybody's rights-- it's not persecution, it's not violating the separation of church and state, it's just a sentence on a billboard. Maybe the church who put it up made a poor decision as it is very unlikely to draw any converts, but people are free to do stupid stuff that doesn't harm anyone.
post #102 of 114
Oh wow, I'd forgotten about the sign a long time ago, I'd wandered off on another (off topic) tangent.

Like I said early on, there are several signs like that around here (I think). I practically don't notice them anymore. I think they are all on the property of members of the church; I think!
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post

I don't understand what people think should be done about the sign. Ordering them to take it down would be a direct violation of their freedom of speech (not religion, speech). Letting them keep it up doesn't violate anybody's rights-- it's not persecution, it's not violating the separation of church and state, it's just a sentence on a billboard. Maybe the church who put it up made a poor decision as it is very unlikely to draw any converts, but people are free to do stupid stuff that doesn't harm anyone.
Very well said!
post #104 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat View Post
You know what is funny or should I say stupid, about this whole thing. This whole argument is about a stupid sign. Who cares what it reads!! If you do not like it, to bad, just ignore it. To me, it's like watching TV or listenting to the radio. When there is garbage on TV I don't like, I pick up the remote and change the channel. Same goes for the radio. Maybe I should write to the TV networks and tell them, how dare they put something on the air that I hate. How dare them be so intollerant of my feelings!! It's just a sign after all, it or the words are not hurting anyone. I could understand more, if the sign was worded where it was encouraging people to do something bad or hurtfull. I don't know, maybe I just have to many more important things to worry about in my life, like my rights being taken away, than to worry about a sign. Like I said, I have seen much worse.
This is a large billboard on the only road into town. I live rural, not in a big city. We have 3 roads that connect our towns and the neighboring counties. All three of these roads, which are our main highways have these billboards.

The only way to not see them is to close one's eyes. Hey yeah! I should do that, get in an accident, then sue the people that put up the billboard. This still wouldn't change the fact that once it has been read you know it is there.


Seriously, the signs are offensive because they push one religion over others. It is slight but it is real. The person or people (no church or persons name on the billboard and it is unclear if it is on county, state or private land) who put up these signs are not just declaring their faith, they are saying anyone that enters and/or lives in these towns are lorded over by Jesus. They are purposely saying this. This sign is meant to be offensive/hurtful/disrespectful to persons who are not Christians. Leaving the town name off would be different. It is subtle, but real none the less.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
I'm inclined to respond because you quoted me in your response.

As I said, I am offended too, but where do we draw the line? How would we even draw the line? You say that this is not about the right to post the billboard, but that it we are accepting of it.

Bumper stickers are just as offensive. Is there a difference? Bumper stickers are on private vehicles, but these vehicles travel on public roads.

Billboards are on private property, but are visible while traveling on public roads.

The only difference I see, is bumper stickers are smaller.

It is very possible to state one's religious beliefs without being purposely offensive or dominating of others no matter if it is on a sign or a bumper sticker.

How do we change people's minds about being purposely religiously offensive? I don't know.

In this very thread there have been multiple statements that in a nutshell say " so what, just be offensive back". In the case of religion this type of behavior breeds hatred an intolerance. Tit for tat and then we have a "holy war". It is divisive. Two wrongs don't make a right, and yet that is what is being promoted.

I guess that is the whole point. What is a harmless but offensive gesture and what is one that will grow into something not so harmless. What gets "nipped in the bud" and what doesn't.

Religion is a very personal issue. Why force what you believe on anyone else? Why force it into a government that was clearly set up to be free from any religious influence? At what point does a stand get made?
post #105 of 114
Here is something to think about. You say you are offended by the sign, but why should it be changed? Just because you don't like it? What about the rest of the town, maybe they DO like it? Maybe 60% of the town likes it. So, making them take the name of the town off the sign, wouldn't that be offensive to the 60% who like it? What really bothers me, is this whole idea of this or that needs to be changed, just because someone is offended by it. What may be offensive to some, may not be offensive at all to to others. As long as no one is forcing you to do anything, than just go on and live your life how you wish. That sign is not forcing you to believe in Jesus or God. That sign is not hurting or harming you in any way. It's not making any noise or disturbing the peace. I don't know, as I stated, I guess I have to many more important things to keep me busy or my mind occupied, than to let these little things bother me. What does bother me however, is when someone takes their beliefs and uses those beliefs to take away my rights to suit them. That is not only offensive, but it will anger me to no end. From what I can tell, this sign is not taking away any of your rights and is not forcing you to make a change.
post #106 of 114
But John - nobody has said it should be taken down. Nobody has argued about its right to be there, or the right of whoever put it there to put it there.

The question was, `would you find this offensive', not `should this be taken down?'

And yes, some of us would find it offensive, but I don't think any of us have said it should be taken down. Tolerance works both ways, remember.
post #107 of 114
lol cause, its only freedom of speech, for the things they believe.
everyone else(the 86%) is supposed to shutup.
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
But John - nobody has said it should be taken down. Nobody has argued about its right to be there, or the right of whoever put it there to put it there.

The question was, `would you find this offensive', not `should this be taken down?'

And yes, some of us would find it offensive, but I don't think any of us have said it should be taken down. Tolerance works both ways, remember.
I know no one is saying the sign should be removed, taken down and so on. I am just having a hard time figuring out how a sign could be so offensive. I guess I have more tolerance than a lot of people here. Someone makes a statement on a sign. Ok got it, but not offended by it, no matter what it said.
post #109 of 114
I also think things can come across on internet sites as being more intense because it's a specific topic for argument. If I saw that sign in real life I'd probably go `yeah, right - whatever' and then forget about it. But because we're discussing it and all of its implications here in a debate forum, it's going to sound as though we are a hopelessly intolerant bunch! I think that just happens naturally when you start discussing things in the nitty gritty.
post #110 of 114
I agree Sarah. I hope we aren't as bad as we sometimes sound.

Well, maybe YOU guys are but, certainly, not me.
post #111 of 114
You know what offends me - MORE than anything in print? Guys walking around with their pants falling down! When is that going to end!???
Sorry for the hijack - I just had to!
post #112 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
You know what offends me - MORE than anything in print? Guys walking around with their pants falling down! When is that going to end!???
Sorry for the hijack - I just had to!
It always looks to me like they need a diaper change. Somehow I don't think that is the fashion statement they are trying for though.
post #113 of 114
Oh I hate that too. They are such numb skulls IMO. I have heard of stupid people in those kind of pants committing crimes and running away and tripping and falling because their pants fall down, the idiots.
post #114 of 114
Aren't we going here? It would be better to start a new thread.
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