Question for breeders

I really like everything about the orientals, personality-wise and especially the look of the more traditional Siamese. That oriental type cat though is one ugly cat and I can't believe they have gone to the point that a cat with that look could win. IMO an oriental type cat like that shouldn't even qualify to be shown. I also prefer the less extreme Persian cats as well.

Some Orientals, and more Modern Siamese are beautiful. However, when they go as far as the shows want to go, that's when they start to look really scarey. My little SunLee is a modern style Siamese, however she's not "Show Quality", because she's not extreme enough. In other wards, she's still pretty, and very classy looking. Also Anakat, has an absolutely beautiful black Oriental cat.

I think SunLee is a beautiful cat as well. The original idea of a more refined looking Siamese was a good one I just think that it has been taken way too far. It's become like a contest to see how extreme a breeder can go. I think the same thing can be said of the Persians as well.

My DH and I think that the extreme cat (the best of 2007) Looks like a little old Asian man, and that he should be teaching kung-fu somewhere! I think that the winning cat has a certain beauty. But, I far prefer the more traditional Siamese. And I think that HopeHacker's SunLee is ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS!!! She should be show quality!! But I am not a pro. in any way--I just have regular old house cats. But I do know a beautiful cat when I see one!

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

Some Orientals, and more Modern Siamese are beautiful. However, when they go as far as the shows want to go, that's when they start to look really scarey. My little SunLee is a modern style Siamese, however she's not "Show Quality", because she's not extreme enough. In other wards, she's still pretty, and very classy looking. Also Anakat, has an absolutely beautiful black Oriental cat.

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I do like the more moderate end of the modern Siamese/Ori scale, ie. the normal typey cats that you see on the show bench here, and that can happily get GC and that most potential pet owners also think are attractive. I do worry that Supreme Exhibit went to a cat so extreme, as it does mean that many breeders will be trying to head in that direction. Since when did the most extreme become 'best example of the breed'?

Surely we should be looking for healthy attractive cat in good condition that represents the breed well, how is that achieved by picking the most extreme example? It's as if the judges got a ruler out and picked the one with the ears furthest apart, when all the others there met the breed standard perfectly too (they have to qualify to go to the Supreme), yet are attractive to more people, especially the pet-seeking public.

I can honestly see Siamese dropping off their current number 2 spot in the UK pet cat popularity table (BSH are number 1) simply because the vast majority of people looking for a beautiful pet will want something a bit less extreme - and to me, that is what should be the breed standard - a look that most people would find beautiful and that the breed is widely recognised as looking like.

Same goes for Persians - it worries me to see exhibitors running around with handfuls of wipes to clean up their cats' eyes and noses - unless a cat is sick, it should be able to go for more than an hour or so without messing up its coat by snuffling snot or tears onto itself.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that winning siamese is just too extreme. The interesting thing is that I was flicking through an issue of a new magazine for the cat fancy over here, and a lot of the siamese and orientals pictured in there as winning shows are less extreme and much more acceptable to me. So I'd guess it depends very much on the way in which a particular judge interprets the breed standard? Although lots of judges obviously like that particular siamese as he's been runner up at the Supreme for the past 2 years.

Originally Posted by urbantigers

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that winning siamese is just too extreme. The interesting thing is that I was flicking through an issue of a new magazine for the cat fancy over here, and a lot of the siamese and orientals pictured in there as winning shows are less extreme and much more acceptable to me. So I'd guess it depends very much on the way in which a particular judge interprets the breed standard? Although lots of judges obviously like that particular siamese as he's been runner up at the Supreme for the past 2 years.

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There was a breed feature on OSH a while back in 'Your Cat' magazine, and the pictured cats were the absolute spit of Sonic, a much more classic look- a look which is extremely popular outside of the show ring, and which I fear may become marginalised as breeders of these beautiful cats are no longer able to do well at shows - despite the fact that the type they are breeding is perfectly acceptable, meets the breed standard (Sonic has no withholding faults) and very popular!

I think in general when you have a standard for a breed (cat or dog) where they are trying for some special look, you can end up with breeders going too far because the standards often do not explain exactly how a trait should be (such as Persian standard saying the nose should be "snub" but not exactly how short or snub-nosed they should be...) I have noticed this a lot in many dog breeds, to the point where with many breeds I don't like the looks of the show-type dogs anymore because they are so extreme compared to the way the breed looked in the past (such as American German Shepherds or Chinese Shar-Pei...) I love the looks of the "old style" of the breeds but not the changes they have made... With cats I have not seen as many breeds the way they looked in the past so I don't have as strong feelings about it, except for Siamese (I prefer the 'traditional') and Maine Coons (I love polydactyls but it's now a DQ in shows.)

I am sorry I didn't manage to go to the show and I am sure you all had fun, but I would have been distressed to see cats like that in any show, let alone winning. I love the oriental look, not the Star Wars look.

I am so very glad to say that the Meezers, CP Shorthairs and Javanese at the show I exhibited in last weekend did not look anything like the GCCF Supreme Exhibit. In fact in the Best of the Best Competition (like the Internationals, the top 5 kittens, Championship and Premiership highest scoring cats were eligible to enter), the Color Point Shorthair came in 2nd to a Russian Blue! I will post pictures once they arrive. Unfortunately and as usual I had no time to take pics!

I took a look at the GCCF standard for Siamese cats http://www.palantir.co.uk/rpsop.html

The ears are only worth 5 out of a possible 100 points. Since I didn't have my hands on the cat, I can't begin to say what his body and coat felt like, but I am sure that ear set alone was not what won him top awards. I do notice that he has really intense blue eye color, and can't imagine how that must look in person. I'm not sure I would have had a cat of his color photographed against a gold background, I think it takes away from his beatuy to the point that he looks, well, alien!

That being said, I prefer moderate cats as well. I selected Maus because, like the Abby, they're supposed to be moderate. I think whenever health is sacrified for type, there's got to be something wrong with the standard. Sadly politics and sheer greed play a large part in what makes a breed standard. Remember, judges were breeders at some point, and many of them helped to define the "type" we see in certain breeds today. So, they continue to give top awards to cats that have the look that they defined. Maybe it becomes an extended version of cattery blindness! Perhaps "line blindness"??

As for polydactylism being a DQ for Maine Coons, I believe that it is a potentially fatal gene, and thus cat registries discourage breeding for that trait.

The cat show I attended about 3 months ago, in Baltimore, I was talking to a bunch of Abyssinian breeders and I overheard a few talking about how the breed was becoming a little more wedge shaped, but that she didn't like it and that if the judges pushed it further, she was simply going to stop showing with those judges.

I get the impression that the breeders and judges oscillate on the overall look over time, with more extreme variations becoming popular but then coming back to a more "normal" look. Most of what I've read seems to indicate that the extreme looks are becoming more common due to better cat medicine as well as a desire to show how different a particular breed is, compared to a regular ol' moggie.

I do think the extremes are silly, but they're currently well populated with persians and slinkies. If other breeds go towards those extremes, it's far more likely that those breeds will be forced to move back towards the middle, simply out of fear of losing points due to being a bad example of the extreme cats.