Fish people: Betta help?

katzyn

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I have a female plakat betta, age unknown, whom I rescued from a nearby Wal-Mart. She is in a 10 gallon, divided tank with my male crowntail betta, Sulfa.

Usually, Moonie, my female, is the healthy betta of my used-to-be threesome (I just euthanized one last month); when Sulfa has parasites, Moonie didn't. When Bishou (RIP) developed Neon Tetra Disease, Moonie -almost- seemed to get it, then it went away. She's only had one -real- health issue, and we never really figured out what exactly it was, just that it was parasites (anchor worms, maybe).

Anyway, now she's got a bump. A pimple-like bump, and some redness on her cheek near the bump (which is on her chin). Here's some pictures:


Here, you can see the bump on her chin.


Here, you can see both the bump -and- the redness on the side of her face, between the scales, which I hadn't even noticed until I took that picture.

Usually, their tank gets a 50% water change every two weeks, but I've been sick this week, so it's been three weeks. I just changed it this morning. Their temp is usually near 75 F, but I just put in their heater this morning, since the weater is getting colder, and the tank, too. I don't have any other reading, but since they are the only two fish in the tank, with no other companions, I'd like to say that everything should be normal.

Thank you for any ideas.
 

conbrio

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while I am not too sure about your issue, if I have ever had a problem or a disease in my tank I just add salt and turn up the temp. This is for a freshwater tank. I slowly add salt and water when doing a water change. Add 1 - 3 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water. I start with one for the first water change and slowly go up to 2 over the course of a week. I dont do 3 but I have heard of other doing it. Be sure to dissolve the salt completely before adding the salt and water to the tank. I use aquarium salt, but others have reported using regular table salt with success.

And I turn the temp up to about 82-83 deg F. Again I do a degree every 24 hours. This is so I do not stress out the tank. I will also do the same in reverse to get the temp back to normal levels.

I do this for about 2-3 weeks sometimes longer if needed. I also do this salt method b/c I am not a big fan of chemicals in my tanks or even vaccinations for my critters or even kids for that matter. Plus the salt has healing properties and it is low enough concentration not to adversely affect your fish, and the heat helps the diseases run the course of their life cycle faster.

If you can try and do more water changes of lesser amounts. Less stress on the tank. I do about 10% water change in my tank once a week. If there is a problem I do 10% ever other day. And as far as the salt goes it does not evaporate out of the tank. It leaves the tank with the water changes.

This is not a cure all be all for every fish disease, but it has helped with the problems that I have had.
 

arlyn

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Looks similar to the bump my male betta had, but his grew and grew, it was a fatty tumor.
I euthanized him when he could no longer swim properly, it was on his side, behind his gills.
 
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katzyn

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Um...I already use salt in my tank, anyway, but I'm not sure about using that much...That seems like an awful lot of salt. But I am working on getting the temp up nearer to 80 F.

Tumor...that's what someone else said, too...
 

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A tumor is a good possibility. Bettas, and Anabantids in general, are prone to developing tumors. There isn't anything you can as far as treating a tumor. If the growing tumor is benign it will grow slowly only push aside surrounding tissue. If it's malignant then it will grow faster, not only pushing aside surrounding tissue but destroying it as well. Even though they aren't contagious it's usually best to isolate the fish in a seperate tank. You don't have to do anything unless the health and quality of life of fish deteroriate to the point where the fish is suffering from the condition. When/if that happens it's better to put the fish down.
 

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Two of my bettas had similiar ... one was cured via salt and mela / pima fix ... the othe rit was a tumur and the new betta medicine( fish shaped at petco) gave him a quality of life for a few extra months
 
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katzyn

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Well, I won't use Melafix, because of what it could do to her gills and breathing, but the temp is still going up, and I'm increasing water changes. Other than the tumour idea, there was a thought that maybe it was a bacterial infection, and I'm waiting on some more thoughts on that. I don't really want to remove her to a smaller, quarantine tank, because it makes her so very stressed.

Good news is that the bump hasn't grown at all in the last 24 hours, whereas yesterday morning, it was tiny, and then last night I took those pics, and it was fairly big.
 

EnzoLeya

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Oh my goodness, I hope you have some good luck with treating this. I've never personally seen it. I've even had a fish tank going since I was 13, 7 years (wow). I would do the same as you are and talk to a fish store. If they have someone who is really into fish they are great help. At our local fish store there is a guy studying fish and he is great help. Sadly he will be leaving this spring to continue studying at a bigger fish school.
 

EnzoLeya

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Originally Posted by Arlyn

Looks similar to the bump my male betta had, but his grew and grew, it was a fatty tumor.
I euthanized him when he could no longer swim properly, it was on his side, behind his gills.
Just wondering, how do you euthanize a fish???
 

arlyn

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One of the best ways for the home is to place the fish in a cup of their own water and place them in the freezer.
Since they are cold blooded, they simply go into a stasis and then shutdown, it's pretty quick.
 
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katzyn

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Originally Posted by Arlyn

One of the best ways for the home is to place the fish in a cup of their own water and place them in the freezer.
Since they are cold blooded, they simply go into a stasis and then shutdown, it's pretty quick.
Well, they say that when you do it -that- way it takes longer, which showed to be true when I had to do that with Bishou last month. The "correct" way to do that would be to have the fish in one cup, place -another- cup in the freezer until it is almost freezing, then plop the fish in and he should go into shock almost immediately and then die. By placing the fish in the freezer, he -slowly- (took Bishou over an hour and a half) freezes to death, which, believe me, is horrible to watch, and very disturbing. I was very upset. Also, this method only works for tropical fish, such as angel, bettas, ect.

Another method is to buy some clove oil and put a certain amout in their cup of water. I can't remember excatly what it does to them, but that's an even better way than freezing water. This is fairly quick, and recommended by most fish people I know. I believe this works for any fish, but don't quote me on that.

And actually, we don't have any -good- fish stores here, that really seeme to know what they're talking about. The only one I'd consider going to thinks that bettas are cold-water fish, not tropical. -_-
 

arlyn

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Over an hour, you must've felt horrible!
I used my deep freezer, so Jet was actually gone in less than 10 minutes.

I know about clove oil, but honestly, I'm not sure if I believe that it is stress free.
I know it has numbing properties for humans, but who's to say it acts the same in other species?
For example, cats can't taste sweet.

Freezing works for all fish type, but for cold water fish, yes, it can take entirely too long.
 

sham

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Well, I won't use Melafix, because of what it could do to her gills and breathing, but the temp is still going up, and I'm increasing water changes.
Constant levels of salt is worse than a measured short term dose of melafix. You should not add salt to a freshwater tank except for short term treatment of illnesses. True freshwater fish are further stressed by salt. The myth of adding it to prevent illnesses and improve healthy mostly started with livebearers who are actually found in brackish to freshwater and would not be considered "true" freshwater fish. Temporarily salt will increase color and appetite which appears to make the fish healthier but the reasons are not good. It's actually the irritation to the scales and gills that increases the slime coat and color and the stress of the fish trying to get rid of the excess salt that leads to a higher metabolism and eating more. Then there's the problem that salt does not evaporate so the levels of salt tend to increase in the tank over several years unless you do a few large water changes and top off with distilled or RO water.

I'd do some water changes without salt to remove it and not add anymore salt to the water. Adding more definitely won't help now. It works when used short term because the fish adjust to the change in salt better than the parasites and bacteria but currently they are already adjusted to the salt. You'll do more good by removing it. Then I would dose with melafix or pimafix every other day for a week. Feeding a wider variety such as some frozen foods can also improve health and help a fish fight off illnesses that cannot otherwise be treated such as tumors or cancer. It won't get rid of it but it often slows the growth of the disease and increases their lifespan for months to years.

Do you have a nitrate test? The first thing you should always do when your fish is sick is test nitrates. Preferably ammonia and nitrites as well but at least nitrates. They will build over time and even with water changes may end up too high. The illnesses resulting from long term high nitrate exposure are often obscure and hard to diagnose. Mystery lumps, sores, and odd behavior are common because of the stress on the fish and lowered immune system. A good liquid nitrate test (don't rely on strips) is only about $5-$8 and priceless when it comes to emergencies and keeping track of the water quality in your tank. Everyone with a tank should have a test kit no matter their experience level.
 
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katzyn

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Well, I've always used salt, because the experts on the betta forum I visit have proven it more useful than you are saying. =/ Also, my bettas had more problems before I started using the salt.

I won't use Melafix, as I've already said.

I've ordered a new testing kit, but it shouldn't arrive until next week. -_- I really wish I had a car. I'm also getting a new bubbler that will help keep oxygen in the tank while I am treating it.

With the help of other experienced fishkeepers, I've decided to begin treating this as if is indeed a bacterial lump, and I'll be using Maracyn for the recommended dosage.

Thanks for your help and opinions, everyone.
 

essayons89

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Originally Posted by Katzyn

Well, I've always used salt, because the experts on the betta forum I visit have proven it more useful than you are saying. =/ Also, my bettas had more problems before I started using the salt.

I won't use Melafix, as I've already said.

I've ordered a new testing kit, but it shouldn't arrive until next week. -_- I really wish I had a car. I'm also getting a new bubbler that will help keep oxygen in the tank while I am treating it.

With the help of other experienced fishkeepers, I've decided to begin treating this as if is indeed a bacterial lump, and I'll be using Maracyn for the recommended dosage.

Thanks for your help and opinions, everyone.
Store bought bettas are a lot like some of the domestic strains of livebearers. They have been bred and inbred for so long that their immune systems aren't always quite what they should be. Because of this, like livebearers, bettas are more prone to contracting some of the more commonly seen diseases like Flex and Fin rot. Anabantids such as Gourami are also prone to a viral infection that causes Lymphocystis, which can cause cauliflower like growths on the skin and/or fins of an infected fish.

I'm almost 100% certain that this isn't bacteria. It's never a good idea to treat indiscriminately with antibiotics. This is one of two things, IMO:
1) A tumor
or
2) A cyst

Tumors we've been over already. Cysts are caused by a number of different micro and myxosporidian parasites which, like tumors, can't be reliably treated and the life cycle of these types of parasites aren't totally understood. I would increase the frequency of the water changes and make sure the fish has a good, varied diet. These should help to boost the immune system.
 
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katzyn

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Do cysts change shape slightly, and become darker in colour? When I checked on her just recently, the bump was much redder, and more oval than it was yesterday. I dunno, everything about it today screams bacterial to me. It looks like an abcess, you know? In the second pic here, you can see the blood in it.

Pics from JUST now.




And they are on a fairly varied diet, but they only get bloodworms and/or plankton once or twice a week. They also have two types of pellets that I use: Hikari Bio-Gold and Top Fin Betta Bits. Also, they get a pea once a week, after a day of fasting.

I hate how breeders breed siblings together. I mean, you wouldn't do that for a cat, why do it for fish? =/ When you do that to fish, as we have all seen, you end up with the same problems as you would get with inbred cats or dogs, or people.
 

essayons89

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Wow, that's a drastic change between two days. Looking at the new pics I think you may be right about it being a bacterial infection. It certainly doesn't look like a tumor or cyst now, cysts usually have a yellowish color to them and are smooth and oval in shape.

I think it may be a good idea to go with both Maracyn and Maracyn Two (a less stressful method of treatment may be to use an antibiotic medicated food if the fish is still eating). They treat different strains of bacteria. Maracyn will treat for gram-positive bacteria strains such as Columnaris. Maracyn Two is used to treat gram-negative bacteria strains such as Septicemia and other systemic internal and external infections. I believe that the latter is what you really need to be using for this. Using both will cover all of the bases, so to speak.

Good move on getting a new bubbler to add, the antibiotics will lower the level of dissolved oxygen in the water. Treat the tank for five days. After the fifth day perform two 50% water changes twelve hours apart and redose for another five days. It's a good idea to continue treatment for a few days after all signs/symptoms of infection are gone.

A couple of other things to remember:
-Keep the light off of the tank during treatment. The meds are photosensitive and light will break them down and render them ineffective.
- Always run the full course of treatment. Not doing so can cause bacteria strains to become resistant to current methods of treatment.

If the treatment is successful I would recommend increasing the frequency of water changes to 50% once a week (or 25% twice a week).

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Katzyn

I hate how breeders breed siblings together. I mean, you wouldn't do that for a cat, why do it for fish? =/ When you do that to fish, as we have all seen, you end up with the same problems as you would get with inbred cats or dogs, or people.
I hear you! This has to be a bigger problem with livebearers than with any other type of fish, it's also one of the reasons behind the misconception that Mollies (as an example) must have salt added to the water for them to survive. Wild Mollies are found in everything from drainage ditches to lakes, streams, rivers and coastal/brackish habitats in water that ranges from soft and acidic to full marine. Depending on where they are found some Mollies will travel between fresh and saltwater many times during their lives, a great many other Mollies never even come into contact with salt. The domestic Molly that is found in stores is a "mutt". They are hybrids of these three fishes: Poecilia latipinna (Sailfin Molly), Poecilia velifera (the Yucatan Molly) and Poecilia sphenops (the short-finned Molly).

Due to the domestic strains being bred and inbred for so long their immune systems aren't what they should be and this leaves them susceptible to all sorts of diseases and health conditions. Most of us who keep fish have probably heard of a Molly "shaking" in place and dying not long after seeing this "behavior". This is called the "shimmies", also known as " Mad Molly Disease". This condition is believed to be brought about by a lack of electrolytes. The addition of salt can help with this but Mollies (as well as other fish) also require other trace minerals to help them maintain proper body functions. The addition of salt on a regular basis to a tank of domestic Mollies is nothing more than a band-aid. Domestic Mollies require a few things to help them not only survive but thrive:
1) Warm water
2) Hard, alkaline water. Mineral/nutrient rich water provides many of the trace elements needed to maintain proper physiological function. In the closed environment of the aquarium this is accomplished by:
3) Frequent water changes that add back trace elements used by the fish.

I try to add fresh "blood" to my breeding stock every year (I keep mostly wild type livebearers). After I get a house and can make a proper fish room in the basement, I'm going to start serious work on earning breeder award points from the American Livebearer Association.

Anyway, I got a bit long winded there. Sorry about that.
 
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katzyn

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Oi, Oi! I'm very happy for your help! =D The only problem is...I don't have any Maracyn-2, and I can't pick it up until possibly Thursday (if the stores are open!) or Friday, and it'll be the same if I order it online. Do you think it'll hurt if I just try Maracyn, then, if after the five days are up and it's not gone, -then- try the Two? I mean, with just the Maracyn, I have about a 50/50 chance, yeah? Although, I definately agree; if Two treats septicemia and internal bacterial ickyness, then I think that's definately the one I should use...

On second thought, maybe after school...I might be able to convince my father to take me to the Petco, since is -it- kinda on the way home...Or tomorrow, I could try to take the bus out there on my way home...I'll give it a try tonight, see if dad'll let me get it (we've been low on money, so he may say no...)

Yeah, that's what I've been told about bubblers and oxygen. My old bubbler died. =/ It's making bubbles out of two TINY corners now, and now being very useful at all. Poor Moonie loves her bubbles, and now they're gone, until next week. The new one we got is a flexible wand, so that should be fun.

Good tips; I only leave the tank light on for feeding, since my room is generally too dark to be able to feed them. When I turn on the light, they know it's feeding time. Speaking of feeding, Moonie is still eating well. She's such a big girl. <3

Wow, nice to know about the mollies; I'm planning on getting some dalmation mollies once I move. Sad to hear that they have inbreeding problems, too, though...
 

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When I had my male paradise fish, he developed something like that. The bump ended up popping. No matter how I tried to medicate him, he didn't make it. It was some kind of bacterial infection. With the mass-production of anabatnids for the aquarium hobby, there seems to be some kind of new bacterial infection that they are more prone to. The new bacterial infection was first seen in dwarf gouramis. Read the paragraph towards the bottom as it mentions it.

The most humane and quickest way to euthanize a fish it to give a quick blow to the head.
 

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You have no problem treating with maracyn but you won't use melafix?
That's about 10times more dangerous. It's also far more effective if you have a bacterial infection but much stronger and stressful for the fish. Melafix is a good first line defense because it's so mild. You can still kill your fish with an overdose but it takes alot more and is less likely to cause more damage or stress. If you are sure it's a bacterial infection then it's time to move on to the more serious stuff but melafix is a great treatment when you aren't certain what your dealing with and don't want to increase stress with strong meds.

As for the salt every "expert" I've talked to says it's a horrible idea to add on a constant basis. Anyone who says differently generally turns out to have limited experience (only kept one species for a few years) or is out of the loop and using old remedies because they aren't on top of the latest research and are doing it because it used to be considered a good idea. In the aquarium hobby experience is not measured in months or even years nor is it measured by the keeping and breeding of a species or 2. The people with 10+ years that have bred countless species and engage in frequent debates on complicated topics are more what I'd call experts. They are the ones that have earned my trust and respect for their knowledge. Try some of these threads: http://fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28290.1.htm?7#
http://fishprofiles.com/files/threads/35453.1.htm?8#
http://fishprofiles.com/files/threads/1070.1.htm?19#

Now salt is still a good treatment for temporary use (like other medications) on some illnesses. If you hadn't already been adding it I'd have suggested trying it but that's where it's use ends. It's a temporary treatment and the benefits are lost when it's added constantly to the aquarium.
 
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