Fish people: Betta help?

artgecko · Nov 25, 2007

I would go ahead with the maracyn I, and try the maracyn II if you aren't seeing results... You can overlap treatments with maracyn I and II, so you can begin the maracyn II dosage halfway through the maracyn I treatment if need be.

That said, I wouldn't use melafix with a beta, they are more sensitive to melafix than many other fish. The same company makes a formula for bettas (betafix I believe). I have never had much luck with melafix personally, but I have had good success with maracyn I and II.

Just remember to do the full course of antibiotic treatment and to do plenty of water changes.

Art

katzyn · Nov 25, 2007

I'm sorry, but I'm going by the word of the BETTA experts in this. These people, these BETTA experts, have kept bettas for years and years, are breeding them (or have bred them), know how to treat and prevent most problems for BETTAS. This doesn't mean that they don't also keep and know quite a bit (and in the case of a few people, quite a LOT) about other species of fish (and other animals, as well).

Here is a topic about what MelaFix (and, subsequently BettaFix) does/can do to Anabantoids, such as bettas:
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?na...=17002&start=0

Most of the BETTA people that I talk to agree wholeheartedly with this article, and also refuse to use the product.

Also, the way I see it, if someone has been keeping only one species of fish, successfully, for years and years, then to me, that means they have probably more experience and knowledge about THAT species, in particular, than someone who keeps many species, and therefore probably knows more -generalized- information about all their species'. So, yes, I'll listen to more BETTA people than general FISH people. A BETTA person would most likely know about how salt affects a BETTA than a general FISH person would, given that they have kept bettas for years and bred them, and ect., you know?

I'm not sure what to think about the first two links you posted. Good information, but is it valid? If it is, then why doesn't everyone know about it, and how do we know it's valid? Who did the research, and for how long, using what fish? Did they use just select fish from a Family, and base their findings on just those select few, or did they use ALL species? Not all fish in a Family live in the same areas, so even between Families, there should/would be differences in results.

The third link, however, was much more useful to me, since there were actual betta owners commenting (even though there were only two), and an article from a Uni about the uses of salt in freshwater aquariums. Thanks for the links, though. It's always good to hear the other side's opinion.

But this all is just like everything else; there will always be a group of people who think it's good, others who think it's bad, and other still who think it won't hurt nor help. It's just like MelaFix and bettas/anabantoids. Some people refuse to use it, others swear by it. And in the end, it doesn't get resolved, because everyone has different experiences than anyone else. I myself have had a bad experience that I know could have been worse, with MelaFix, and before started I adding salt, my fish were having more problems than they have since.

So, I recommend using salt, and not using Mela/Betta Fix. But I won't laugh or become judgemental towards people who won't use salt, or who does use Mela/Betta Fix.

EDIT~~Oh, that's right...Moonie isn't getting better, but she doesn't look -worse-. I have been gone for the last four days, and couldn't take her with me, and the parents gave her the last dose of Maracyn one and two, but said they couldn't do the water changes because they didn't know how (and apparently weren't interested in learning how). I'm going to give her a deep water change now, and then, tomorrow (since she's had time to rest from the meds, and I'm out of Maracyn one), start her on Tetracyclines, which were recommended by a betta friend, if the two Maracyns didn't work.

sham · Nov 26, 2007

The people posting would be the ones doing the research and anything they didn't learn first hand is from published studies. Most also started with bettas before moving on to other anabantoids and then more species of fish. Several that posted on those threads concentrate on keeping species that are often referred to as wild bettas. Keeping only one species of fish has a tendency to limit experiences to the point someone does not consider other methods of care or treatments or they just follow along with what has always been done for that species without doing their own further research. Keeping more species and types of tank setups broadens your point of view and increases both your knowledge and experience so that you know more ways to handle different situations.

Even if bettas are more sensitive to melafix than other species maracyn, tetracyclines, and other meds are still going to be harder on the fish. If we take the aquatic critters that are the most sensitive to melafix they are also the ones that can't be treated with anything stronger than salt and melafix without resulting in death. You aren't lessening stress by refusing to use melafix in place of other meds. Instead you would be better off using melafix at a half dose or with more frequent waterchanges than suggested before deciding whether another medication is needed. Counting out a safer treatment because a fish is more sensitive to medications does not make sense. Most anabantoid forums I've been on recommend a half dose of melafix or pimafix as a starting point until you narrow down the illness or the fish improves.

The only argument we can make is whether salt or melafix is more stressful to bettas or any other fish. The problem is even if salt is the better treatment you've eliminated that treatment option by using it constantly. Salt only works if you use it temporarily. Otherwise the pathogens you're trying to kill have already adjusted to the level of salt in your aquarium. That means you'd have to increase the salt beyond the current level which then becomes dangerous for the fish. Anabantoids are also often mentioned amongst the more salt intolerant fish. Most species are softwater fish and softwater fish don't come into contact with much salt. If you take a look at all the brackish to saltwater fish they are hardwater fish. Saltwater is always high in dissolved minerals and generally even light brackish maintains a ph of at least 7.8. Adding salt and increasing the TDS on a tank with softwater fish is not going to help them. It's going to increase stress. Even though bettas have been tankbred to the point they survive in most tapwater conditions it's still not helpful to add more dissolved compounds to their water.

One last thing to keep in mind is are you running a water softener? Water softeners exchange magnesium and calcium ions for sodium. That already adds some salt to your water and it has been argued frequently that using water from a faucet not connected to the water softener is better. My water tests an sg of 1.005 after going through the water softener. That is nearly low level brackish. For comparison high end brackish is generally around 1.015 and minimum level for true saltwater is generally considered to be 1.020. 1.000 of course being absolutely no salt and usually only found with RO, distilled, or very soft waters. Most when salting a tank add enough to increase it .002-.003. Even if your water softener were not as strong as mine you could still be ending up with enough salt to actually make brackish conditions. There are too many variables, too many risks, and too many differences in opinion. I will never reccommend using salt beyond short term treatments unless the fish evolved in hardwater or from water with a salt content and only if you properly measure it with a hydrometer or refractometer. Guessing at things has led to many people wiping out their entire tank. To take a quote that is often applied to marine reef tanks "If you can't measure it don't add it".

sharky · Nov 26, 2007

Originally Posted by Sham

The people posting would be the ones doing the research and anything they didn't learn first hand is from published studies. Most also started with bettas before moving on to other anabantoids and then more species of fish. Several that posted on those threads concentrate on keeping species that are often referred to as wild bettas. Keeping only one species of fish has a tendency to limit experiences to the point someone does not consider other methods of care or treatments or they just follow along with what has always been done for that species without doing their own further research. Keeping more species and types of tank setups broadens your point of view and increases both your knowledge and experience so that you know more ways to handle different situations.

Even if bettas are more sensitive to melafix than other species maracyn, tetracyclines, and other meds are still going to be harder on the fish. If we take the aquatic critters that are the most sensitive to melafix they are also the ones that can't be treated with anything stronger than salt and melafix without resulting in death. You aren't lessening stress by refusing to use melafix in place of other meds. Instead you would be better off using melafix at a half dose or with more frequent waterchanges than suggested before deciding whether another medication is needed. Counting out a safer treatment because a fish is more sensitive to medications does not make sense. Most anabantoid forums I've been on recommend a half dose of melafix or pimafix as a starting point until you narrow down the illness or the fish improves.

The only argument we can make is whether salt or melafix is more stressful to bettas or any other fish. The problem is even if salt is the better treatment you've eliminated that treatment option by using it constantly. Salt only works if you use it temporarily. Otherwise the pathogens you're trying to kill have already adjusted to the level of salt in your aquarium. That means you'd have to increase the salt beyond the current level which then becomes dangerous for the fish. Anabantoids are also often mentioned amongst the more salt intolerant fish. Most species are softwater fish and softwater fish don't come into contact with much salt. If you take a look at all the brackish to saltwater fish they are hardwater fish. Saltwater is always high in dissolved minerals and generally even light brackish maintains a ph of at least 7.8. Adding salt and increasing the TDS on a tank with softwater fish is not going to help them. It's going to increase stress. Even though bettas have been tankbred to the point they survive in most tapwater conditions it's still not helpful to add more dissolved compounds to their water.

One last thing to keep in mind is are you running a water softener? Water softeners exchange magnesium and calcium ions for sodium. That already adds some salt to your water and it has been argued frequently that using water from a faucet not connected to the water softener is better. My water tests an sg of 1.005 after going through the water softener. That is nearly low level brackish. For comparison high end brackish is generally around 1.015 and minimum level for true saltwater is generally considered to be 1.020. 1.000 of course being absolutely no salt and usually only found with RO, distilled, or very soft waters. Most when salting a tank add enough to increase it .002-.003. Even if your water softener were not as strong as mine you could still be ending up with enough salt to actually make brackish conditions. There are too many variables, too many risks, and too many differences in opinion. I will never reccommend using salt beyond short term treatments unless the fish evolved in hardwater or from water with a salt content and only if you properly measure it with a hydrometer or refractometer. Guessing at things has led to many people wiping out their entire tank. To take a quote that is often applied to marine reef tanks "If you can't measure it don't add it".

... If I could write like that I would have said just that ...

May I ask what you are now keeping???

katzyn · Nov 26, 2007

"If we take the aquatic critters that are the most sensitive to melafix they are also the ones that can't be treated with anything stronger than salt and melafix without resulting in death."

I don't quite understand this. Maracyn and MelaFix are NOT the same thing, so how could this be true? My body cannot cope with certain meds, like what's in Sudafed (can't remember the generic name...) but that doesn't mean that something like Penicillin or Amoxicillin will have the same effect on me. I don't see how it's any different with fish, other than they absorb the meds through their skin, and I absorb my meds through my GI system.

MelaFix is an oil, yes? Oil and water does not mix, and betta breathe air from the surface. They would have to breathe into the oil on the surface, which, I would imagine, would make breathing a bit interesting, to say the least. But Maracyn, or some such med, is a powder, mixed in with the water thoroughly before it gets into contact with the fish, and, I would also assume, wouldn't cause the fish as many potential problems, being that it is absorbed through the skin, like lotion, except that it goes much deeper. Is there something I wasn't told, or am missing?

Also, could you explain how Maracyn is so much more dangerous? I haven't hear of that, until you said so.

Water softener? =/ I don't use one, much less know what it does (other than what its name says it does?).

I use (now) water from my tap, that has been left out, uncapped, for at least a day. I didn't use to, until one of my other bettas (RIP, Bishou) somehow got Neon Tetra disease. At that same time, before I changed how I treated my water, Moonie was starting to show the same signs on NTD, then I started leaving the water out, and she stopped showing signs and got better. And honestly, I think I use less salt than recommended, because I don't measure it out precisely anymore, and I am really afraid of using too much of anything. Gotta admit, though...I'm reluctant to end using salt on a regular basis. Moonie has been doing so good since I started using salt all the time, and while that might be coincidence, I don't want to find out that it wasn't.

I really do appreciate this dicussion, even though I don't like it when people disagree with me. =3

sharky · Nov 26, 2007

Meracyn is a POWERFUL ANTIBIOTIC.. ie a class of drug that is the MOST potent avail to the ave fish owner ... Melafix is a Herbal well studied but far less potent in regards to side effects

artgecko · Nov 27, 2007

Just my experience, but I thought that I'd note that I have owned several bettas, among these, I have had to treat various ailments (also with my other community fish, etc.). Of these, I treated one betta (with a minor fin injury) with melafix, because it was less harsh than maracyn I/II... The betta in question died, without exhibiting any other symptoms. After I had that experience, I read about other betta and anabantoid owners with similar experiences and then learned that melafix + anabantoids wasn't a good thing. On a side note, I have actually never seen any real results when just using melafix alone, on any of my fish.

That said, I have treated many fish (bettas and others, including loaches and sensitive cats) with maracyn I/Ii and have never lost any due to the medication.

Because of my experiences, I choose not to use melafix and I reccomend maracyn I/II as a safe treatment.

Art

katzyn · Nov 27, 2007

Moonie looks lots better. =) I think the water change after the Maracyn treatment did wonders. She's only had one dose of the Tetracyclines (because she's smart and doesn't want to take it), but I'll continue giving it until the treatment is over, so she doesn't build an immunity to it.

essayons89 · Nov 27, 2007

Water changes are a wonderful thing and are the best thing that can be done to prevent disease.

I've had a variety of mixed results with Melafix. The oil from the Melaleuca alternifolia tree has some antifungal/antibiotic properties but it's mainly used as a topical. I find it to work great in helping to repair raggedy/tattered fins and in helping to prevent infections from setting in on wounds but IME it's not strong enough for treating serious bacterial infections like Flexibacter columnaris (Flavobacterium columnaris) or those infections caused by various Pseudomonas and Aeromonas bacteria such as bacterial fin rot or septicemia (as examples). For such infections erythromycin, minocycline, kanamycin or nifurpirinol would be better to use.

Antibiotics don't discriminate, though. They'll "nuke" both beneficial and harmful bacteria alike and wreak havoc on biological filtration which is why a hospital tank should be used instead of treating the main tank.

katzyn · Nov 29, 2007

I think I've been told that kanamycin is no longer sold. Is that true? I've never seen it, but I was also told that it was a -very- strong drug.

Her jaw is still a bit swollen, but definately looks much less angry and red. In fact, she looks completely normal, except that her right jaw is a bit bigger than her left.

Thank you all for your help, information, comments, good wishes, experience-sharing, ect. =D I will very seriously consider slowly removing the salt from my normal water change treatments. Still won't use MelaFix, though. ;D

essayons89 · Dec 2, 2007

Glad to hear that she is looking better.

Kanacyn was a brand name made of kanamycin that was sold by Aquatronics but they either went out of business or were bought out. It can be found online but it's not as readily available "off of the shelf" as other medications.

katzyn · Dec 2, 2007

Oh, I see. Well, if I have another problem such as this, I'll keep that in mind.

THANK YOU, EVERYONE.

keith p · Dec 20, 2007

Go to http://www.bettatalk.com/, it has everything on Betta care.

sharky · Dec 20, 2007

the stuff I couldnt remember the name is Revivie if i get bettas again i wont ever be without it

katzyn · Dec 20, 2007

Betta Revive is good stuff, but I don't use it much. =/

And yes, Bettatalk is a very good website.

And I'm happy to say that Moonie is still doing great, no sign of reoccurance.

Fish people: Betta help?

artgecko

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katzyn

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sham

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sharky

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katzyn

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sharky

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artgecko

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essayons89

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katzyn

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essayons89

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