Next Step: Choosing a Breeder

ghosthunterbeck

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I won't be getting my kitten (the alter) any time within the next three months for *sure,* but I think that even three months isn't quite enough time to choose a breeder. In the past, when I first started thinking about doing this, I contacted several and got some information about the breed and their catteries. I think I did the right thing in that case, but there wasn't a single cattery that I was entirely comfortable with (yet).

I do have several specifications (I will pick up in the Eastern U.S. but outside of that area I'd need shipment on my kitten). I definitely want a male, and he will need to be vet checked and certified, as well as registered (I've been thinking FICA, but that could change based on what information I can get from you all here!
). Obviously I'd like the first and possibly the second round of kitten shots administered and I prefer my kitten to be between 12 and 24 weeks old and weaned onto a high-quality cat food.

I also very much want a breeder who I can communicate with easily and who has a contract. The breeder (obviously) needs to care about the kittens coming out of their cattery and be willing to accept responsibility for bad choices (i.e. be willing to take a kitten back if they sold to a bad owner -- not that I'd send a kitten back or be a bad owner, but I like the contract to state breeder responsibility).

I would like to purchase an alter from the same cattery from which I would ultimately purchase breeders.

First of all, is there anything that anybody has to add to this? Am I being *too* picky? I don't know that I'm willing to slacken at all on what I want, because I think picky can be a good thing, but I'd like to know what you think.

From this basis, how do I go about finding and establishing contact with a breeder? I find it easier to communicate via e-mail most of the time rather than run up phone bills, for example.
 

scamperfarms

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I think your list looks pretty good. The onlything i myself would slack on is the food, yes every breeder should feed high quality food, but what one person thinks is high quality and what someone else does can be diffrent as seen by the constant food debates, and foods can be changed.
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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I'm more concerned about the "completely weaned" aspect of that statement, actually. I've seen 12 week kittens who weren't completely weaned onto a dry cat food, and that's really what I'm looking for. But I can edit the statement a bit and still make it work, I think.

Of course I'll also want to know what food the kitten is on so that I can purchase some and either change the food for the kitten gradually or get Whisper and Reagan weaned onto the food the kitten is on.

Thanks!

I'm going to start searching breeders tonight and maybe pop off a few e-mails. I'll post the e-mail I write here before I send it off though, just to be sure that I'm not overdoing or underdoing it!

ETA: If anyone can recommend a ragdoll breeder that they have either worked with or know to be reputable, that would help me considerably.

The same goes if you know of a breeder who I should *not* consider, though I think I could figure that out in time anyway


Last Edit, I swear!

What kind of price range should I be looking at? I know that in some cases the cost of an animal from a breeder can be a reflection of the quality of the kennel/cattery. My understanding is that a lower cost often indicates a more serious breeder in the case of dogs. Does the same go for cats?
 

abymummy

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On picking a breeder - attend shows, meet breeders face to face, see if you "click" - and at shows, you can see how "good" that particular breeder is, iro the quality of the cat shown. Of course you would only meet their top show cats but that is a good indication of what "type" of cats they are breeding.

Ragdolls per se are a tough breed to breed right - markings are very very important - especially on the bi-colors.

As for pricing - I think on av. pet q's and retired breeders are around $500-800 or less, show neuters are around $600-1000 and show/breeders would start around $800 and more, depending on lines.

It is not uncommon to buy a great foundation cat (with the right pedigree) for $1500 or more.

I would suggest you start researching pedigrees and try to understand at the very least what is behind the BW's of your chosen breed.
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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Thank you Abymummy. I'm not in the least bit intimidated by the $1500. I was expecting that, so that doesn't come as anything of a surprise, and I'm glad that I asked, because I've seen *higher* prices on kittens, so it seems that my assumptions regarding the similarity between dog and cat breeders has proven out in this case.

Do you know what the best way is to find shows in my area? A web search is all fine and dandy, but more difficult to search through than if there is a specific site that would make it easier on me. I've always loved attending the shows that I just happened to run into, but that's not what I'm after this time around!
 

celestialrags

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In the breeder forum people have been listing area shows for each month, you can try looking to see if any have been posted in your area. I have also found fliers posted at stores. The best place would probley be on the registeries web site (ie TICA, CFA, ect)
What is your favorite color/pattern? My dream queen would be a lilac bi-color or chocolate bi-color. My pair carry chocolate mitted though
Close, but not quite
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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I think seal bi-color is my ideal cat, but I'm not necessarily looking for the "ideal" with our first kitten. I really do like the mitted kittens as well, and the torties. There are so many beautiful variations in dolls that it's really tough to decide, isn't it!

I will have a look at the listings. I've also thought about contacting some breeders and seeing when they will be showing in our area -- that could also be a step in the right direction. I've been on several websites, some of which are really off-putting and others which are quite attractive. You can get a kind of a "feel" for the breeder from a site, but it's definitely not enough!
 

celestialrags

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My handsome stud muffin Dante' is a seal bi-color. (he is technically a high mitted and with my pointed queen only produce seal or chocolate mitteds.) I call the last litter my (8) mitted monsters. I haven't seen too many torti, torbi, linx, ect. I only work with traditional colors/patterns, for now, atleast!
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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Do you have pictures somewhere I could look at?

I just sent you a PM as well. I'm a bit lost with the posting regarding shows, but I think I'm probably looking in the wrong place! Nothing new there!
 

celestialrags

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Originally Posted by ghosthunterbeck

Do you have pictures somewhere I could look at?

I just sent you a PM as well. I'm a bit lost with the posting regarding shows, but I think I'm probably looking in the wrong place! Nothing new there!
http://thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146337
This is a link to the nov shows if any are posted. Every month some one starts a thread and people add to it.

I will have to look for some links to old threads of mine with pictures in them. I have a few kitten threads, so I know there are some. Two members here also have a kitten from me and have their picturs as well.

Here is a pic of Dante'


Here is my queen Icey


Here is a picure of my kitten in the last litter, I am keeping her for showing/breeding.
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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They are all so beautiful! I have to be honest that I'm not especially concerned with the markings at this point in time. I'd love to have a Ragdoll just for the qualities of the breed as a pet, but as much as I do love the breed (Whisper's part Ragdoll, actually) I really think that breeding is something that I want to look into in the long term.

I'm looking forward to taking opportunities to work with the breed, and hopefully to have our own kitten in the not too distant future!
 

abymummy

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Originally Posted by ghosthunterbeck

Thank you Abymummy. I'm not in the least bit intimidated by the $1500. I was expecting that, so that doesn't come as anything of a surprise, and I'm glad that I asked, because I've seen *higher* prices on kittens, so it seems that my assumptions regarding the similarity between dog and cat breeders has proven out in this case.

Do you know what the best way is to find shows in my area? A web search is all fine and dandy, but more difficult to search through than if there is a specific site that would make it easier on me. I've always loved attending the shows that I just happened to run into, but that's not what I'm after this time around!
Here's the link for CFA:

http://www.cfa.org/exhibitors/show-schedule.html

That's the only one I have bookmarked since my cattery is registered with CFA only


As for $1500, I would advise you that that figure is the ball park minimum, not maximum. Again, it all depends on the pedigree and the worthiness of the cattery. As you mentioned, there are many cats that have been sold for ten times that! And you don't really want to pay that kind of prices for the wrong cat!
 

goldenkitty45

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If you are working with Ragdolls and you want a show quality alter, you probably will be looking at 4 months old or older. Ragdoll colors/patterns (some) take awhile to know if its the right pattern for show. And you want a body/head typey kitten too.

By that age the kitten would have the full set of shots and be neutered too.

This is what I would do (and not do).

Don't

Start off the conversation of wanting to breed Ragdolls as your ultimate goal. You will put up a red flag to the breeder.

Take the first "deal" you come across. Take your time.


Do

Attend a lot of cat shows in your area. Don't stick to only one association to find your kitten. Go to CFA, ACFA, and TICA shows. You are in a good area where there are shows by different associations, so take advantage of that. There are Ragdoll breeders in all those associations and do show too (I know several of them in ACFA).

Talk to as many Ragdoll breeders as you can at the show. Most will have background info on their cats on display if they are some of the better and top breeders. IMO I would not buy from a breeder that didnt' have at least 1-2 grand champions (recent) in their cats they are working with.

The more grands and champions in a pedigree the better the cat and the more chance you have of getting top breeding cats (now and in the future).

Watch how the Ragdoll kittens/cats/alters are handled by the judges and the owners. Watch the grooming they do. Ragdolls are less grooming then a persian, but they are longhair
LISTEN to the judges when they either are initially judging Ragdolls or in the finals - learn the good and bad points of the cat. How else will you know what you are looking at/for? And if you are serious about showing/breeding, you'd better know the standard for color and pattern/markings - memorize the written standard for type and color/markings.

Get breeder cards of the ones you think you might like to contact. Tell them you are considering getting into showing (not breeding at this point) and what color/sex you want. Ask to be put on their waiting list for a kitten.

Personally, if a person came up to me asking about showing, one of the first questions I'd ask is "have you shown cats before?". If not, they may be a little cautious about how serious you really are in showing. Many people walk in a show hall and think "oh I'd like to do this" and then next show put in their HHP and find out that either they (or the cat) doesn't like showing as much as they thought.

There's a lot of background work that is done before you even set foot in the showhall. The cat has to be in proper condition, VERY well groomed, easy to handle by strangers and YOU have to be willing to sit in a show hall 1-3 days (depending on how many days the show is running) for over 8 hrs - usually getting there at 7-8am and staying till 5-6 pm.

I usually suggest to people to start out showing with a HHP only cause its a good way to learn the ropes. I showed HHP's for about 5-6 yrs before I decided on my first purebred cat.

Breeders can't keep all their best show cats, so they are looking for SERIOUS people. And the way to do it is to prove to them you are serious in showing. I would have loved to have more people willing to show my quality cats; only a few were serious, so most of my better cats became loving pets (which is ok, but still....)

I'm glad you are taking your time, but do a lot of research first (you seem to be serious and have a good start).

Once you find the right breeder to work with, and he/she gets you the right show cat, prepare to go to a lot of cat shows - try to schedule them about once a month if you can. The breeder you choose should have multiple association registrations for their cats - its better in the long run. That means they show their cats and win in more then just one association. And you will have more choices in showing too. That's why I show in both CFA and ACFA - between them I can get to several shows a year.

You're in a better place for shows then me - you should be able to find enough close by shows.


Question - do you have any other cats in the house now, that you could test in cat shows to get started in what you need to do/go thru and to really find out if this is what you want to do long term?
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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First of all, what's HHP? I'm still getting used to abbreviations, although I tend to use some more obscure ones myself. This is just one that I couldn't quite translate out on my own, and I'm a bit embarrassed about it.

Abymummy:

I know that you're right -- not only have I done a lot of searching the internet on the subject of the cost of breeder-quality animals, but I've also made phone calls in the past and I am *very* aware of the cost of a hobby such as this, which is one of the really big reasons that I'm not jumping in with both feet.

About a year ago, before we unexpectedly became pregnant, my husband and I were seriously considering breeding designer ball pythons, just because *that* hobby, while expensive, can also be lucrative. The line I wanted to breed was such that easily you could add another 0 onto the figure for a breeder quality ragdoll cat and you wouldn't be overpaying! You could say that it helps I also therefore understand the importance of the breed line!


GoldenKitty:

Don't

Start off the conversation of wanting to breed Ragdolls as your ultimate goal. You will put up a red flag to the breeder.

Take the first "deal" you come across. Take your time.
Generally speaking, I consider myself a very intelligent person. I tend to think things through in a very rational manner, in spite of being pregnant (I'm told this is unusual?). But last night, before I saw this post, the exact same two things that you mention here occurred to me, and to be honest, it surprises me that I came up with the same conclusion that you would suggest to a rank beginner. I'm rather proud of myself.

Personally, if a person came up to me asking about showing, one of the first questions I'd ask is "have you shown cats before?". If not, they may be a little cautious about how serious you really are in showing. Many people walk in a show hall and think "oh I'd like to do this" and then next show put in their HHP and find out that either they (or the cat) doesn't like showing as much as they thought.
Not that it would matter to the breeder at this point in time, but I've been considering showing for a *very* long time. I first thought about dogs, but that was when I was so young that I didn't realize that cats and birds could be show animals too!

I also feel some concern that many novices (as I am a novice) probably have some not-so-great reasons for wanting to show -- notoriety amongst them. I've seen this before with people who decide suddenly to begin showing their dogs. They want a title to their name, and that's it.

Okay, so that's nice, yes. But it's not about that for me, and that's not what breeding is about for me. I *adore* the idea of working with a breed that I love and making it something better than it was before I started!

I do know the work that goes into showing and I'm more than happy to do it -- another part of the reason that I want to wait a little bit, so that I can *fully* prepare myself for all that it entails.

Question - do you have any other cats in the house now, that you could test in cat shows to get started in what you need to do/go thru and to really find out if this is what you want to do long term?
[/quote]

We have two cats -- Whisper is a Ragdoll mix (he's rather a blue-grey in color, so I've no clue what he's mixed with, but we saw mom -- definitely a ragdoll) and Reagan is your run-of-the-mill former feral.

Whisper would never tolerate being shown. He's frightened of all men, and skittish around people he doesn't know. He sees men as predators and women he doesn't know as a threat to his place in the household. He's just very insecure because of several things that happened to him during kittenhood that had nothing to do with my husband or myself and which we were at a loss to prevent.

Reagan is... How shall I put this... She's ugly. I love her to death, but she is one of the most horrible-looking cats I've ever seen. She's a black and white with half an ear missing. Her muzzle is very sharply pointed and doesn't go well with the rest of her body.

I know people who think that she's beautiful, but that missing half-ear kind of messes it up when you're looking in terms of showing a cat. On the other hand, she's *extremely* friendly and handleable for the most part. The only problem I can see with her is that when she's done, she's done. And neither of them are kittens and able to be trained.

So I was thinking, honestly, about purchasing a pet-quality kitten from a breeder to start. Not only does this reduce the initial purchase cost of the animal, but it allows me to familiarize myself with the breed outside of the show arena before getting my feet wet. Familiarity goes far beyond breed standards, but into grooming of the particular breed as well as understanding the typical personality of the breed.

As far as I can tell, the decision to take a step *backwards* is of course entirely up to me.
 

goldenkitty45

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HHP - household pet


Ok, then what I would do is buy a pet-quality Ragdoll kitten. Get it used to being handled by strangers, etc. Then put the kitten in a few shows to see how you really like showing.

When you buy the kitten, you don't have to register it. In fact, if you do and you show it in the HHP classes, you would have to surrender the papers to the association (in ACFA you do). So don't even bother registering at this point.

And I really would not buy a pet kitten from a breeder that you later want a show/breeder kitten. Charlie's breeder has in her contract (pet) that the cats are not to be shown. Now I didn't question on if its not shown in championship or not shown in HHP.

Charlie turned out to be show quality by the time we got him; and since she knew we had shown cats in the past (and granded them), she told us about Charlie's quality. I really think that if we hadn't mentioned we were seasoned show people, she probably would not have even mentioned that Charlie could be shown.

So just be careful.
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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If I'm looking for a pet-quality animal in particular, am I looking for something *different* in a breeder? I would still like to get an older kitten (3-5 months or so) who is already altered and up-to-date on shots, so responsibility is a big issue with finding the right breeder, as it will always be.

I will have to talk my husband into this, I'm sure. He's behind me, but he seems to be somewhat unsure. I think he sees reptiles to cats as taking up *more* space when in fact it's quite the opposite and the costs are substantially lower when we're talking about cats vs. snakes. A high quality Royal Python Morph tends to run more than $2,500, for example, and that's for the lesser morphs! Add to that upkeep costs, and it gets quite expensive, though it can still be a money-making venture, and I think that's what he's seeing more than anything else.

If anybody can recommend a breeder of pet-quality ragdolls, I would really appreciate it. I'm going to check for shows as well and start attending them. I enjoy doing that anyway (I wouldn't be headed down the road I'm on if I didn't!) and hopefully something good will come of it!
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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There's a show right nearby on the 17th and 18th of this month! Definitely going to check into it, even if there aren't any ragdolls on show. My husband will enjoy it if there are any Maine Coons for him to ooh and aahh over
 

goldenkitty45

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You would not look for anything different in a breeder whether you wanted pet or show. And you really don't want to buy from a breeder that is only breeding pet quality purebreds. A good breeder will always have a few "pet" quality cats in a litter - not every cat is a show cat nor meets the standard.

If you like the mitted or bicolor Ragdolls, you can always find a mismarked one in the litter that would be disqualified from the show ring, but would make an excellent pet for someone.

So go for a high standard breeder - they will have some pets they would like to place. You may even consider a "retired breeding or show adult cat" too
 
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ghosthunterbeck

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We're going to check out the show later this month and see what we find. I've noticed that there do seem to be several breeders in the Midwest area, so hopefully there will be some ragdolls there so that I can start to talk to a breeder about their kittens!

I'm pretty excited about this, and one of my friends might go with us too. I think we've got a good start at building a strong foundation, and I really do enjoy cats as a species and would love to work with them.

If for some reason I don't wind up breeding, I will be looking into opening a no-kill shelter for cats as an alternative (but not as a sideline).
 

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Originally Posted by ghosthunterbeck

I would still like to get an older kitten (3-5 months or so) who is already altered and up-to-date on shots
3 months is not an older kitten, that's the minimum age most are adopted. Also these days they are usually altered before you get them, and should have had at least one vaccine. Not entirely sure how it works in the US but over here the first shot is given at 10 weeks, then the new owner does the 2nd (last) shot at 14-16 weeks.
 
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