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the topic of the day, Huckleberry Finn and that word

post #1 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:49am
Thread Starter 
here we go again,

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/287664.html

do we ban a book cause of the N word? can Mark Twain live in this PC world?
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post #2 of 34
11/1/07 at 8:06am
It's an awkward one?. I can honestly say hand on heart that i've never heard anyone over here for years saying the "n" word. Yes ok, they use another term, but i always associate the "n" word with slavery which was years and years ago in the Huckleberry Finn era, but that was then.

If any of you have heard of the famous childrens author Enid Blyton, she had to be racist!. As a child i read all of her books, but it wasn't until i got older that i realised what she was meaning so it shocked me because IMO it was quite bad ...

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/POLIT...INCORRECT5.htm
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post #3 of 34
11/1/07 at 8:26am
I understand people not wanting such words and attitudes in use in children's literature, but I also think that there's enough merit in much of it that, instead of withdrawing the book altogether, it should be read -- with parents; in school -- and discussed, and thus turned into a teaching tool. These attitudes (and sometimes the language, too) haven't gone away; you can't just ignore it. Better to take the opportunity to pass on the values you DO want the child learning, in a reasoned way, rather than simply "thou shalt not!" with no explanation.
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post #4 of 34
11/1/07 at 8:38am
The book has to be put in its historical context, not banned. Why do some schools not seem to be able to manage that?

I reread T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" this morning while walking Jamie, and was reminded that political correctness didn't exist in his day, either (it was published in 1939).
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post #5 of 34
11/1/07 at 9:02am
Yes, let's put this in historical perspective. Twain was a satirist. Here are some interesting articles about the book. Note the date of the first article.

http://louisville.edu/a-s/english/ba...garticles.html

http://www.americanheritage.com/arti...984_4_81.shtml

Oh! Our daughter goes to Elmira College in Elmira, NY. Oliva Langon Twain (Twain's wife) was among the early graduates of the college. During parents' weekend, the college has tours of the farm where he lived and finished "Huck Finn."

Recently at Columbia University there have been a swastika painted on a female Jewish professor's door and a noose hanging out the door of a Black American professor. Shouldn't be trying to end today's hatred and stop worrying about a book written 100 years ago?
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post #6 of 34
11/1/07 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by butzie View Post
Shouldn't be trying to end today's hatred and stop worrying about a book written 100 years ago?
Couldn't agree more!
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post #7 of 34
11/1/07 at 9:25am
Even more recently, people used that word with no real thought (kind of the way some people say 'gay' and 'retard' now... it's offensive, and it reveals your ignorance when you use them that way, and there are much better ways to express the same thing) but the name for a certain treenut as well as the original version of "Enimenieminiemo" both had that word in them.

It would be foolish to ban Huck Finn. If the reasons behind the use of that language are explained (because it is historically accurate) then there's nothing wrong with it.

Trying to sweep our past under the rug doesn't make it go away.
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post #8 of 34
11/1/07 at 10:12am
Living in Missouri and very close to Mark Twain's home town, we had quite a few manditory Mark Twain books we had to read. The teacher, before we started reading it, pointed out that the book had that word in it, and talked about the context it was used. He even said that if anyone was offended by it to please come and talk to him and he'd give them a different book to read. We even had times where we would read the book out loud in class, and if we came to that word, we just skipped over it. No one really made it a big deal. I can understand it may be offensive to some, but that's why our teacher gave us an 'out' if we chose.
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post #9 of 34
11/1/07 at 11:14am
That is so sad. Twain has some of the best American litature. Its a classic. The blacks have to quit complaining all the time about what is said in classic books. It was the language at the time it was written. Instead of complaining about a few words they find offensive, they should be reading it for content - not just the "n" word!

I remember when they pulled "Little Black Sambo" off the elementary bookshelves cause it protrayed blacks in a bad light. Anyone that read the story would know it had a happy ending. I'm glad I got to read that before it was banned.
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post #10 of 34
11/1/07 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
The blacks have to quit complaining all the time about what is said in classic books.
I don't think the people trying to ban it are black. 'Sambo' is a racist slur. And I had a longer response, but I decided it wasn't polite enough. Basically, though, please reconsider the above statement.
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post #11 of 34
11/1/07 at 12:11pm
Heavens above! My background has Canadian Indian in it so should I make a huge fuss if my daughter's school is reading a history book in her class that doesn't make my ancestors look good or talks of scalping or calling them red-skins (which at the time they were called) or some such thing that happened many, many, many years ago?

For goodness sakes, isn't it time we ACCEPT history, read about and be aware of it without dragging it and all the hatred and biases into 2007. It's classic literature - it is what it was at that time and I doubt seriously if it's going to cause current folks to start using the "n" word. Mark Twain was a gifted and talented man with a wonderful sense of humour and IMO had no ill feelings toward anyone, black or white. He simply used the expressions of the time he lived in with no hidden agenda or animosity. It would be wonderful if the people of this generation could unload some of their own animosity IMHO.

Sometimes I don't think "we've come a long way baby".
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post #12 of 34
11/1/07 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
here we go again,

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/287664.html

do we ban a book cause of the N word? can Mark Twain live in this PC world?
My problem is that they will ban Twain, but keep Agatha Christie. She uses that word too. It seems that the people who want this banned are just being very selective about the books that they have a problem with.
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post #13 of 34
11/1/07 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaLou View Post
Living in Missouri and very close to Mark Twain's home town, we had quite a few manditory Mark Twain books we had to read. The teacher, before we started reading it, pointed out that the book had that word in it, and talked about the context it was used. He even said that if anyone was offended by it to please come and talk to him and he'd give them a different book to read. We even had times where we would read the book out loud in class, and if we came to that word, we just skipped over it. No one really made it a big deal. I can understand it may be offensive to some, but that's why our teacher gave us an 'out' if we chose.
I grew up in the South, and this is how my teachers were, too. If the student and/or the student's parents were that offended by it, they could bring the teacher a letter signed by the parent, and then the student was given another book to read.

If we remove every book from a school's reading list that had anything that someone could take offensively, then there would be no books left to read.

"Classic" stories like these teach us and makes us aware of how ignorant some people were of each other, teaches us how far we have come, how far we still have to go, and teaches us acceptance, not tolerance of other races.
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post #14 of 34
11/1/07 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel47 View Post
These attitudes (and sometimes the language, too) haven't gone away; you can't just ignore it. Better to take the opportunity to pass on the values you DO want the child learning, in a reasoned way, rather than simply "thou shalt not!" with no explanation.
I agree. Ignoring the term doesn't make it go away. Rewriting the book (if its an option) to take out the word destroys his words and they no are Mark Twains.

However the teacher standing in front of the classroom teaching the text should TEACH the students about the term and WHY it is offensive today vs 100 years ago. Students may still not respect the word right away, however eventually they'll get it (I hope)
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post #15 of 34
11/1/07 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
here we go again,

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/287664.html

do we ban a book cause of the N word? can Mark Twain live in this PC world?
The word is used in Lord of the Rings, Return of the King too. At Theoden's funeral celebration Eowyn and Faramir become engaged and Aragorn says to Eomer "No "N" are you ...." so do we ban that book too?

We live in a different age than when these books were written. Instead of banning and closeting kids off these books should be read and enjoyed and terms such as the "N" word discussed and explained as to why they are now considered inappropriate to use.
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post #16 of 34
11/1/07 at 5:25pm
Excuse me but most of the complaints about some of the books are coming from black people. When will they realize that this is HOW the books were written in that time.

Its history. There are many things that were said in the past that people don't like and are offended by it. But to ban books cause you don't like what is written in them is stupid IMO. You cannot ban all books. If you don't like it, then go read something else!

And the Little Black Sambo story was really cool and cute. It was about a little boy that wound up giving his clothes to tigers and in the end the tigers wound up as butter for Sambo's pancakes.

The only problem I had with the story is that tigers don't live in Africa (which is where the story was supposed to be taking place)
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post #17 of 34
11/1/07 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Even more recently, people used that word with no real thought (kind of the way some people say 'gay' and 'retard' now... it's offensive, and it reveals your ignorance when you use them that way, and there are much better ways to express the same thing) but the name for a certain treenut as well as the original version of "Enimenieminiemo" both had that word in them.

It would be foolish to ban Huck Finn. If the reasons behind the use of that language are explained (because it is historically accurate) then there's nothing wrong with it.

Trying to sweep our past under the rug doesn't make it go away.
that is kinda what my point was. The word has become so common, that you see white people calling each other that. The band i play with has 2 younger black guys who often say someting like Yo N , and other stuff to me.

you have people blasting Dog, for a word that has become common, and among many of the younger gen is not a negtive word. if dog had been black would there be the out cry? no, its in a book so we defended it being there.
imus uses the term nappy headed, Which to me is not racist , since it was a term in my family, lol just couple of weeks ago my cousin used it when trying to get her 2 kids to get cleaned up..

Often we pick and choose what is racist and what is not, its all up to how we process that information.
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post #18 of 34
11/1/07 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Excuse me but most of the complaints about some of the books are coming from black people. When will they realize that this is HOW the books were written in that time.
Oh, sorry, you must be reading a different article than me. Would you mind posting a link to the one you have? The one in the OP doesn't mention anyone's race but the family of the student in the picture, and that has to be inferred from his picture.

Also, you said that ALL black people complain about "the classics", which is a sweeping generalization.

I've read the book you're talking about. The title contains a racist slur, and every illustration I've ever seen of it has been... offensive. The story content isn't so bad, I'll agree.
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post #19 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
that is kinda what my point was. The word has become so common, that you see white people calling each other that. The band i play with has 2 younger black guys who often say someting like Yo N , and other stuff to me.

you have people blasting Dog, for a word that has become common, and among many of the younger gen is not a negtive word. if dog had been black would there be the out cry? no, its in a book so we defended it being there.
imus uses the term nappy headed, Which to me is not racist , since it was a term in my family, lol just couple of weeks ago my cousin used it when trying to get her 2 kids to get cleaned up..

Often we pick and choose what is racist and what is not, its all up to how we process that information.
Ok, and isn't black in spanish Negro? Im suprised that hasn't been banned in Spanish class.
I hear kids all day long using the "N" word and they're not offended with each other.
(I know I'm gonna get flamed for this one but here goes....)
Why is it that more often then not, the only time black people get offended
by the "N" word is when someone who is NOT black uses it?
Be it a stranger on the street, or a 100yr old book?
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post #20 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixie_Darlin View Post
Ok, and isn't black in spanish Negro? Im suprised that hasn't been banned in Spanish class.
I hear kids all day long using the "N" word and they're not offended with each other.
(I know I'm gonna get flamed for this one but here goes....)
Why is it that more often then not, the only time black people get offended
by the "N" word is when someone who is NOT black uses it?
Be it a stranger on the street, or a 100yr old book?
More and more black people are not calling each other by the "n" word. Sean "Puffy" Combs (or whatever his name is) has been one of the main "role models" to be discouraging black people to not use the "n" word and the version ending in "-ah".
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post #21 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
i had to do some work so did not get to finish my post,,

anyway,the last thing i wanted to add is, Just because a person uses the N-word, or some other slang term for another a group, does not make that person a racist.

Kinda like the dutch guy in indoensia, He never called the locals names etc, but would he hire a inoensian?, nope, in fact he would not even allow my wife into his house, because she was indoensian.
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post #22 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:17pm
According the news story on TV here in Dallas, the complaining students & parents were black. http://video.nbc5i.com/player/?id=176316

I personally have an issue with blacks being able to call each other the "N" word and having it be acceptable. I was very pleased when some of the local Black leaders took a stand against Black youth using the word to refer to each other. IMO, it's all about respecting each other. And I could go on and on about my feelings on that.

"History is bound to repeat itself" is an old quote referring to the fact that we fail to learn from mistakes of the past. It is hard for me to imagine a time when people were considered property. Separating family members, physical and emotional abuse, lack of opportunity for a better future, all of this is important for us to understand how and why it happened. If we don't help people to understand why it occurred and why it was wrong, it will happen again to another group of people. And again.

I am not defending the teacher as I wasn't there and I don't know what was said or how. I am probably too chicken to teach the subject to a group of students, though I have discussed it with my children.

If it makes any difference, I am part Cherokee, female and older.
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post #23 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of 4 View Post
"History is bound to repeat itself" is an old quote referring to the fact that we fail to learn from mistakes of the past. It is hard for me to imagine a time when people were considered property. Separating family members, physical and emotional abuse, lack of opportunity for a better future, all of this is important for us to understand how and why it happened. If we don't help people to understand why it occurred and why it was wrong, it will happen again to another group of people. And again.
.
Yep very very true, and humans do seem to have very short memory.
i
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post #24 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
i had to do some work so did not get to finish my post,,

anyway,the last thing i wanted to add is, Just because a person uses the N-word, or some other slang term for another a group, does not make that person a racist.

Kinda like the dutch guy in indoensia, He never called the locals names etc, but would he hire a inoensian?, nope, in fact he would not even allow my wife into his house, because she was indoensian.
You know, its funny. The term "racist" has changed so much in the last oommm... 50 years? Being a racist use to mean that you degraded someone simply because of the color of their skin or something that makes them different from you.

By todays standards there are so many levels of what is considered "racist" its nuts. You could be a public racist, a hidden racist, a stereotype racist, reverse racist, etc. I remember one class I had in college talked about all these different levels and in short, what was taught was that everyone had a degree of racism in them.

Plus people will still call you racist...for example many people I know will call someone racist if the person says "I'm not racist, my best friend is black" simply because the person is identifying that their best friend is different from them.

I think the best thing in this scenario is for everyone to accept "this was a term used back then, it shouldn't be now" as we would like to think that we're beyond how we acted towards each other 150-200 years ago.
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post #25 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneRiceBowl View Post
More and more black people are not calling each other by the "n" word. Sean "Puffy" Combs (or whatever his name is) has been one of the main "role models" to be discouraging black people to not use the "n" word and the version ending in "-ah".
It's great to hear they're changing it.. But, be it with "er" or "ah" its the same context. kinda like "f-r-i-g" and the "f" words... all means the same
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post #26 of 34
11/1/07 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixie_Darlin View Post
It's great to hear they're changing it.. But, be it with "er" or "ah" its the same context. kinda like "f-r-i-g" and the "f" words... all means the same
I agree. I had mentioned in my last post that he is discouraging both words.
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post #27 of 34
11/1/07 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
It would be foolish to ban Huck Finn. If the reasons behind the use of that language are explained (because it is historically accurate) then there's nothing wrong with it.

Trying to sweep our past under the rug doesn't make it go away.
I agree with you very much! TEACHING kids goes much further than pretending it never happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnneRiceBowl View Post
.....us and makes us aware of how ignorant some people were of each other, teaches us how far we have come, how far we still have to go, and teaches us acceptance, not tolerance of other races.
Yes Yes Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
that is kinda what my point was. The word has become so common, that you see white people calling each other that. The band i play with has 2 younger black guys who often say something like Yo N , and other stuff to me.
.
.
.
Often we pick and choose what is racist and what is not, its all up to how we process that information.
I have grown up in a multi-cultural church. And even there I heard people (mainly the younger ones) using words like that toward each other in a fun-teasing kind of manner. And I know for a fact that some of the adults in the church experienced extreme prejudice, yet they did not bat an eye at it.

I personally think teaching through classic literature can get delicate but important subjects such as this through to people better than say a history lecture.
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post #28 of 34
11/1/07 at 9:46pm
Come on it's a classic!! Mark Twain lived in a different time. Teachers should let students know the differences between Mark Twain's time and today. Come on English teachers, the Social Studies teacher is just down the hall. It's a perfect chance to co-teach and teach across the curriculum!!! Principals love that!
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post #29 of 34
11/2/07 at 2:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosiemac View Post
It's an awkward one?. I can honestly say hand on heart that i've never heard anyone over here for years saying the "n" word. Yes ok, they use another term, but i always associate the "n" word with slavery which was years and years ago in the Huckleberry Finn era, but that was then.

If any of you have heard of the famous childrens author Enid Blyton, she had to be racist!. As a child i read all of her books, but it wasn't until i got older that i realised what she was meaning so it shocked me because IMO it was quite bad ...

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/POLIT...INCORRECT5.htm

wow, those are,, hmm bad.
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post #30 of 34
11/2/07 at 2:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
wow, those are,, hmm bad.
They are aren't they But you know, as a child i never thought anything of it because i didn't know what it meant?, but that was probably because i wasn't brought up to be racist, i just don't know?

But looking at it now i can't believe she actually wrote those, because i don't know if she made it to the USA, but over here she was and is still a famous well known author of childrens books even though she's dead now.
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