Notice <>>> Please Read ... HOMEMADE or RAW info seekers

NO one on here is a vet ... Alot of you are curious about homemade and or raw diet s...

YES there are premade "complete" diets at many mom and pop stores and a Zillion recipes online ...

PLEASE CONSULT a VET PRIOR to using any of these... Just like dry and canned there are so so, good , very good and excellent pre dones and recipes ... NO ONE on here can tell you what WILL WORK for your cat ... ANY VET KNOWS the % s of nutrients both macro and micro needed to be healthy .... THESE can vary greatly cat to cat and YOUR vet will KNOW best ....

I feed raw and homemade myself but I have a vet with a masters degree in nutrition helping me at every turn.... And things at my house are adjusted to the individual needs

A reminder: A LOT of vets think that giving wet food or raw food to your cats is just a big waste of money on your part. Vets may be knowledgable, but their expertise is not in nutrition.

My vet is a holistic vet, yet he thinks that I am wasting money buying high quality kibble and that I should just feed them all SD - yeah, right.

So yes, absolutely consult your vet, but keep in mind that they may not truly understand raw food diets and therefore will recommend that you stay away from them.

When I told my vet that I give raw rabbit to my Bengal on occasion, his eyes nearly popped out of his head and he said, "Why?!?" I just shook my head and said, nevermind - they are all healthy, so I must be doing something right.

I also agree that the individual needs of each and every cat will vary, and it is important to be very mindful of that.

Why does someone have to refer to their vet in their choosing of a complete pre-made raw diet? I only think they should if their cat is unhealthy or if there is some type of health concern.

A lot of information about raw is attainable through the internet or books, it isn’t completely necessarily to consult a vet. Some may be unaware that raw can be harmful but if they thoroughly research it, which can be done through many channels besides seeking the advice of a vet they would know what constitutes a proper raw diet for cats.

I’ve talked to a vet that admitted he wasn’t trained in nutrition and that he learned his information through outside sources i.e. internet/books, so it may be a hassle finding a vet that’s nutrition minded in regards to your pet.

Yes your own research is needed. My vet said Cat Chow was perfect for my cats

Feeding raw or homemade requires a lot of the purr-fect supplements, they aren't complete diets for our cats. So, consulting with your vet prevents you from not getting enough of one supplement and harming your cat.

Frankly, I think thorough individual research is sufficient, given a certain level of existing nutritional knowledge. Vets in general are not well-trained and knowledgeble in nutrition and certainly not in raw diets. If you have a vet like sharky's, then you're truly blessed, and by all means get their input. But most vets will just gasp and warn you about salmonella poisoning.

That being said, you should at least inform your vet of what you're doing.

What we really need would be a feline nutritionist - are there any? I know there are canine nutritionists who make their living teaching people how to put together homemade dog diets.
My vet admits that he doesn't know much about nutrition. I really don't expect most vets to know all the ins and outs of creating a diet; I expect them to know how to diagnose and treat disease, and perform surgery. I prefer to do nutritional research on my own.

I wouldn't trust even my favorite vet to pick out the most basic diet for my cat, or any of my animals, much less try to put together a balanced raw diet. Unless they've done their own research outside of what they've been taught (and most don't have or don't take the time) vets know very little about nutrition. Sure they may know how much of a certain vitamin or mineral has been shown to be neccessary by most cats but they don't know how much of that vitamin or mineral is in most foods especially raw and they don't learn much about different forms. Ie protein is not just protein. Fiber isn't always just fiber. The source matters but you don't learn much of that in vet school. They only learn x grams or percentage of protein is best but do not often differentiate between types and qualities of protein. It's also extremely easy to get ahold of the studies and research done to determine how much of a given nutrient a specific animal needs for survival without having to ask a vet. For example here's the one for guinea pigs: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn...51266&page=104 And here is the usda database of what is in every human quality food item: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ I mix my own diet for my guinea pigs from fresh foods (no pellets) because most commercial diets are quite lacking and most vets are quite clueless about what they really need.

If you want to do raw I highly suggest researching for youself and asking the opinions of people who have done the research. Sure ask your vet their opinion but a vet's opinion is just that. An opinion. I never rely on one person's opinion no matter who they are. I want preferably 3 if not 5+ quality sources that mostly agree before I consider something to be correct. Read alot. Ask alot of people. When you think you know enough then research for another week before you put any of it into practice. That holds true for anything to do with your animals. The more resources you have at your disposal and the more research you have done the more you can do for them. Relying only on 1 vet's opinion will limit your resources greatly. No 1 person can know everything. One reason I like my vet is that she's open minded. If I bring in a research text or published studies she'll consider it and quite often she ends up doing tests or trying treatments that I have suggested from my own research and that she didn't know about or wouldn't have thought of.

Originally Posted by Pami

Yes your own research is needed. My vet said Cat Chow was perfect for my cats

Click to expand...

I use to be ignorant on the matter of cat nutrition. I use to feed my cat, nine lives, Purina, Iams (some Iams are fine), fancy feast and I asked my vet at the time about cat nutrition and he asked me what I was feeding and I told him, which were the names I mentioned above and he said it was perfect. Then I went to another vet after I have had become more aware of cat nutrition and was told Science Diet was great.

I learned otherwise when a friend was talking about cat nutrition and then I discovered this forum a while back and ask people here about feline nutrition.

So, I have had that experience with a vet telling me a certain food is great for my cat or cats in general and of course since it was a vet telling me that, I blindly accepted it.

I have all of Dr Ian Billinghurst's books, Australian vet, Give Your Dog A Bone his 1st. He coined the phrase 'Barf' diet. I also have Tom Lonsdale's books Raw Meaty Bones. Both recommend raw meaty bones as 60%-85% of a dogs diet.
Billinghurst adds crushed vegetables & extra additives to the diet such as brewers yeast, flax seed oil, whole raw eggs, vit C, vit E to name a few.
Lonsdale recommends raw meaty bones plus table scraps.
7 yrs ago I had April on the Billinghurst diet & introduced Sooty too when we 1st got her. She came from lean stock & when the vet saw her, he said she was underweight & to put her onto a commercial diet. After reading Give Your Dog as Bone, no one would feed their pets a commercial diet.
Having said all that, I find it easier to supplement with commercial pet foods. I can't always afford the premium pet foods but I always get the ones that have meat as the 1st ingredient & never cereals.
Blossom, my cat, has been off color in the last few days & the young vet who saw us recommended I give her Royal Canin sensitive formula. The 1st ingred. is tapioca. The waiting room is full of Royal Canin pet foods.
When I was a girl we didn't have commercial pet foods, my mum used to feed my cat beef heart & gravy beef. Fluffy was a fussy cat & wouldn't eat fatty meat so mum used to cut off all the fat from the gravy beef, a more expensive cut of meat for a cat, but less fat.

Tapioca?!?!?! Anybody for dessert?

Originally Posted by sharky

NO one on here is a vet ... Alot of you are curious about homemade and or raw diet s...

PLEASE CONSULT a VET PRIOR to using any of these... Just like dry and canned there are so so, good , very good and excellent pre dones and recipes ... NO ONE on here can tell you what WILL WORK for your cat ... ANY VET KNOWS the % s of nutrients both macro and micro needed to be healthy .... THESE can vary greatly cat to cat and YOUR vet will KNOW best ....

Click to expand...

I would treat commercially prepared raw just like canned or dry, in that it would be trial and error in finding which brand/formula your cat does best on. The only stipulation being that I would stick to the well known brands and stay away from the "Middle of nowhere pet store's orignal raw blend" type formulations. This is just because the larger companies (wysong, natures variety, bravo, etc) have the resources to do more r&D and have their products being "tried and tested" out on a wider population.

No vet can tell you what food will "work" for your cat in absolute terms either. More so when it comes to dry and canned foods, as there are so many more variables and ingredients to work with there.

Who is balancing diets for the ferals? Farm cats? Grocery store "mousers?" If cats were animals with such highly specialized dietary needs we would not have populations of them existing with little to no human intervention.

Contrary to what pet food companies, nutritionists, and other financially motivated individuals would have us believe -- it does not take a masters degree to feed a "normal" cat. Cats are carnivores. Obligate carnvores actually, so that makes it pretty simple. It's only when you want to venture away from a species appropriate diet (such as wanting to cook or feed grains, vegetables, not wanting to give bones, etc) that you need professional guidance.

The only time I see requirements "varying greatly from cat to cat" is if your cat is not normal because he or she is suffering from a chronic illness (CRF, UTI, megaC, diabetes, etc). At this point, please DO consult your vet. A holistic one, if raw or homemade is the way you'd like to go. These ways of feeding are still against the grain, and there are still more conventional vets that are against than for them. Not that you can't find one that is, but don't go walking into just any clinic expecting to do so.

A very basic understanding of nutrition is needed before you decide to feed "homemade" raw (ie know that you can't just throw your cat a steak every day), but common sense goes a long way too.

Originally Posted by kittyTales

I would treat commercially prepared raw just like canned or dry, in that it would be trial and error in finding which brand/formula your cat does best on. The only stipulation being that I would stick to the well known brands and stay away from the "Middle of nowhere pet store's orignal raw blend" type formulations. This is just because the larger companies (wysong, natures variety, bravo, etc) have the resources to do more r&D and have their products being "tried and tested" out on a wider population.

No vet can tell you what food will "work" for your cat in absolute terms either. More so when it comes to dry and canned foods, as there are so many more variables and ingredients to work with there.

Who is balancing diets for the ferals? Farm cats? Grocery store "mousers?" If cats were animals with such highly specialized dietary needs we would not have populations of them existing with little to no human intervention.

Contrary to what pet food companies, nutritionists, and other financially motivated individuals would have us believe -- it does not take a masters degree to feed a "normal" cat. Cats are carnivores. Obligate carnvores actually, so that makes it pretty simple. It's only when you want to venture away from a species appropriate diet (such as wanting to cook or feed grains, vegetables, not wanting to give bones, etc) that you need professional guidance.

The only time I see requirements "varying greatly from cat to cat" is if your cat is not normal because he or she is suffering from a chronic illness (CRF, UTI, megaC, diabetes, etc). At this point, please DO consult your vet. A holistic one, if raw or homemade is the way you'd like to go. These ways of feeding are still against the grain, and there are still more conventional vets that are against than for them. Not that you can't find one that is, but don't go walking into just any clinic expecting to do so.

A very basic understanding of nutrition is needed before you decide to feed "homemade" raw (ie know that you can't just throw your cat a steak every day), but common sense goes a long way too.

Click to expand...

To date ONLY ONE company of raw foods is attempting the AFFCO feed trials the others likely just dont have the $$ or the moxy... NOTE it is NOT A BIG company ....

THE AVE lifespan of a ONLY outdoor cat is 3-5 yrs .... the ave for a house cat ( I call indoor outdoor ) is now 14... that means thru PROPER diet and medical care we are Tripling to Quintaupling the natural life span... so that agruement DOES NOT hold water... NO a masters degree is not required but it take s more than common sense ... Requirements do vary and YES that is what a vet went to school for the "Farm mentality of keep it alive and how "

YES the basic of
70-85% muscle meat
10-15% organ ( but do you know the % of liver?? )
10% bone( yup eggshells can replace but do you know the other needs if that is used?? )
3-5% veggies

RAW is NOT a fresh mouse with all the need s and most folks use one or two meats .... a wild cat uses something like 15

Originally Posted by sharky

THE AVE lifespan of a ONLY outdoor cat is 3-5 yrs ....

Click to expand...

These cats are not keeling over dead from malnutrition, the VAST MAJORITY of these ferals are succumbing to infection from abcesses (the #1 "non-wellness" reason we see indoor/outdoor cats at my job for) disease, becoming road kill, getting mauled by dogs, cruelty, or any number of fates.

Originally Posted by sharky

the ave for a house cat ( I call indoor outdoor ) is now 14

Click to expand...

You may call "house cat" indoor/outdoor, but did the researchers? I'm thinking what they called a house cat, was a strictly indoor cat. There would just be too many variables otherwise. How many hours would be the cut off point? After how many hours outdoors is there a significant change in longevity?

I would like to see this study. But I have no doubt that cats that are sheltered from the before mentioned dangers and given medical attention when required would out live a cat that had neither. Even if they were fed the exact same food. Common sense.

10% bone( yup eggshells can replace but do you know the other needs if that is used?? )

Click to expand...

As I mentioned in my previous post, when you venture away from what is natural - like giving egg shells instead of bone - professional guidance is needed.

ETA: I'm not saying that feeding raw is to be done willy nilly...but spreadsheets or one on one consultations with a nutritionist are not required.

Originally Posted by kittyTales

These cats are not keeling over dead from malnutrition, the VAST MAJORITY of these ferals are succumbing to infection from abcesses (the #1 "non-wellness" reason we see indoor/outdoor cats at my job for) disease, becoming road kill, getting mauled by dogs, cruelty, or any number of fates.

IF they had proper nutrition the VAST majority would not succumbing to infection as the body would fight it... yeah the human made issues are another thing...


You may call "house cat" indoor/outdoor, but did the researchers? I'm thinking what they called a house cat, was a strictly indoor cat. There would just be too many variables otherwise. How many hours would be the cut off point? After how many hours outdoors is there a significant change in longevity?

I would like to see this study. But I have no doubt that cats that are sheltered from the before mentioned dangers and given medical attention when required would out live a cat that had neither. Even if they were fed the exact same food. Common sense.
IT IS multiple studies over the last 30 ish years .... SO yes the early studies state 10-13 yrs on ave and a house cat was NOT all indoor... the latest ones state teens to 10s depending on whether indoor or indoor / outdoor... my last two saw 18 yr 11 months and 19.5 yr s and spent about half time outside


As I mentioned in my previous post, when you venture away from what is natural - like giving egg shells instead of bone - professional guidance is needed.

ETA: I'm not saying that feeding raw is to be done willy nilly...but spreadsheets or one on one consultations with a nutritionist are not required.

Click to expand...

Professional guidence IS needed for the ave person to do it right... Evan I who has nutritional training needed alot to get it right

Or a person could do what I do: 50/50. My cats get one meal of premium canned cat food and one meal of my raw mix. I do try to make my raw mix nutritionally correct and complete, but if it's not quite right at least my cats get another meal that's supposed to be nutritionally correct. It's really quite amazing what even half of a raw diet will do.

I am bringing this up in hopes a few newbies read and hed the warning.. ie DONT just go raw without alot of research and then talking with your vet...

I regularly talk with 5 different vets only two are natural but the others would and do work with patients who are doing a raw or homemade diet

2 things:
#1, is it okay to occasionally feed some cooked meat as a treat?
and #2
I must admit that I slightly hesitate to consult my vet and take his word for 100% because my opinion is that the vet is going to push whatever product they are promoting by selling in their office. If they get x dollars at their vet clinic for selling Sience diet or whatever then of course that is what they are going to tell you to feed.
I think it takes a combination, your own research, someone knowledgable (like sharky? lol), and your vet- keeping in mind the vet may not know that much about nutrition or may be pushing a product.

Originally Posted by mom2raven

2 things:
#1, is it okay to occasionally feed some cooked meat as a treat?
and #2
I must admit that I slightly hesitate to consult my vet and take his word for 100% because my opinion is that the vet is going to push whatever product they are promoting by selling in their office. If they get x dollars at their vet clinic for selling Sience diet or whatever then of course that is what they are going to tell you to feed.
I think it takes a combination, your own research, someone knowledgable (like sharky? lol), and your vet- keeping in mind the vet may not know that much about nutrition or may be pushing a product.

Click to expand...

question one
Yes occationally a piece of UN seasoned meat is fine .... but watch for any signs it is too rich

question 2
i do understand the wrorry and your last statement is great ...

i do often do my homework and then ask my vet... the vet is a safety net , ie they know Toxic food s like you and i know the ABCs and they know the right %s

Originally Posted by sharky

question one
Yes occationally a piece of UN seasoned meat is fine .... but watch for any signs it is too rich

Click to expand...

How do you tell if it is too rich? (and I am guessing by what comes out of the other end of the cat).