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This is sure to start the mother of all debates

post #1 of 34
10/17/07 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_te...cle3067222.ece


Holy Cow!
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post #2 of 34
10/17/07 at 11:36am
What?!?!
I hope that the vast majority of people will simply find that so outlandish that they'll choose to ignore him, as he deserves.
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post #3 of 34
10/17/07 at 11:39am
I don't think black people are less intelligent, anymore than I think Asian people are MORE intelligent than white people.

I think that because a lot of African American people didn't grow up with the same advantages as white people, they may not test as well in some area's. However, that is by no means a sign of intelligence or lack of. You take a white person growing up in poverty, with parents who didn't put any emphasis on education or learning and that white person will test just as badly as a black person brought up in the same situation, and a black person raised by someone like Bill Cosby for example would probably test better than most people. I think it all depends on how you're brought up, and how many advantages you were given growing up.

I think it's really racist to even suggest that black people are less intelligent. Some people are graced with a higher IQ than other people and it doesn't matter what race they are.
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post #4 of 34
10/17/07 at 11:47am
That's absurd!
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post #5 of 34
10/17/07 at 11:51am
Wow! James Watson is suppose to be a nobel prize winner? His comments are inconsiderate...Race has nothing to do with intelligence! "It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments."
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post #6 of 34
10/17/07 at 11:53am
From what I read so far (I'll read the rest when I get home from work), the guy keeps claiming that there is genetic evidence. I'd be really curious to know WHAT evidence he has.
I'm also not clear about what he means by "intelligence"

If he means that black people test lower on IQ test on average, that's not evidence of lower natural intelligence. IQ tests are based in (white) European culture. Education also plays a very big role on the results.

But really, that's a non-debate to me. There is no biological basis to race, and "intelligence" is not something that can be measured objectively. So the guy's claim makes no sense.
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post #7 of 34
10/17/07 at 1:30pm
I just think "Who cares?"

Saying that one race is "less than" another doesn't benefit or society. It just adds prejudice.
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post #8 of 34
10/17/07 at 1:31pm
This guy may have unravelled the DNA code, but he's an old bigot if you ask me. He also has said that a woman should be able to abort an unborn child if it's shown to be homosexual, and that they could cure "ugly" and making all the girls pretty "would be a good thing" (I guess that would only be "pretty" in his eyes).
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post #9 of 34
10/17/07 at 1:32pm
Eugenics is nothing new. You can kind of see how it might be possible, if cultures that are more likely to have come from Africa are more likely to value any number of other things more than intelligence, but frankly the theory fails the second you start thinking about the reasons people choose mates. (By which I mean: it's a load of crap)

Standardized test scores are skewed for all kinds of reasons, one of the main ones being the quality of education that children get in inner-city schools, which are also heavily skewed towards black people (saying African-American doesn't make sense because I am not just talking about the US). Then there is the fact that for decades upon decades, the ONLY test subjects ever used were white middle-class men, including while standardized tests were getting going. There is also the fact that people in poverty (of any race) are considerably less likely to put a high priority on education.

Basically, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Why did you think this would start a huge debate? I think pretty much everyone is going to agree
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post #10 of 34
10/17/07 at 2:50pm
OHHH geezzzzzzzzzzzz - I'm white, but there are many intelligent blacks. Many have contributed a lot to science, politics, etc. That's the stupidest thing I've heard!
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post #11 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:07pm
I can't believe i learned about him in history!!

Anyone read freakonomics? it has such a great chapter on why black people do worse on IQ tests. And obviously its almost entirely education.
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post #12 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:37pm
well if i was to follow some of posting in pervious threads,
then he is the expert who are we doubt his findings?.

maybe if he made a movie and called it hmm lets say the inconvenient truth part2 ?
people would be getting behind it? could be there are other scientists who agree with Watson but are to scared to publish there finding for fear of having there funding cut. cause there finding dont match public opinion.

lol just saying
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post #13 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:40pm
How Hitler-esk of him. I wonder if they ever take Nobel Prizes away?
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post #14 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
well if i was to follow some of posting in pervious threads,
then he is the expert who are we doubt his findings?.

maybe if he made a movie and called it hmm lets say the inconvenient truth part2 ?
people would be getting behind it? could be there are other scientists who agree with Watson but are to scared to publish there finding for fear of having there funding cut. cause there finding dont match public opinion.

lol just saying
So he's at expert in DNA. He's claiming expertise in intelligence. That's like having a surgeon tell you which car to buy.

Sorry, ain't taking the bait here.
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post #15 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
Sorry, ain't taking the bait here.
no and its not the same, its saying there is a DNA link, that is his area, he should know. SO we should just go along with this finding. Dont doubt his finding he knows best.

lol.
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post #16 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
no and its not the same, its saying there is a DNA link, that is his area, he should know. SO we should just go along with this finding. Dont doubt his finding he knows best.

lol.
There's a difference between being an expert at DNA on a micro-biology level and being an expert on how DNA affects something as complex and ill-defined as intelligence.

That's like asking a car mechanic to explain to you how car pollution affects global warming.
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post #17 of 34
10/17/07 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p View Post

That's like asking a car mechanic to explain to you how car pollution affects global warming.
or a politician to explain global warming

but at least in watson case he studies DNA, he should have a better idea how that effects growth

and well as someone pointed out, Watson won the Nobel Peace Prize so oh my god it has to be true.
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post #18 of 34
10/18/07 at 10:46am
ummm.. yeah ok I'll believe that when pigs fly
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post #19 of 34
10/18/07 at 11:53am
Oh my goodness..... I'm not even going to say anything!
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post #20 of 34
10/18/07 at 12:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
well if i was to follow some of posting in pervious threads,
then he is the expert who are we doubt his findings?.

maybe if he made a movie and called it hmm lets say the inconvenient truth part2 ?
people would be getting behind it? could be there are other scientists who agree with Watson but are to scared to publish there finding for fear of having there funding cut. cause there finding dont match public opinion.

lol just saying

Have to admit, you have a point there. Come on people, at least admit where Bruce is coming from.

We are humans and we believe what we want to believe.
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post #21 of 34
10/18/07 at 12:45pm
I admitted it could be possible that there are racial differences in all kinds of things; and that it could be possible that Watson's ideas are based on more than just racism. But if you reason it out, it just doesn't make sense. Smart people and strong, fast people survive better in all environments, especially ones with a lot of predators. In order for there to be a difference genetically in intelligence, it would mean that people consistently chose some quality over intelligence in their mates for a long enough time to actually have an effect. Some cultures do devalue intelligence (including our own, to some degree-- educators are poorly paid for their skills, smart people are labelled as dorky and social misfits, blablabla) but you'd have to prove to me that this was consistently true for many thousands of years prior to the African disapora, and I am 99.9% sure that it just ain't so.

The things Watson is using as arguments in support of his theory are old-hat, standard-issue racist crap. The discrepancy in standardized test scores is well-studied, and it's painfully obvious that it has nothing to do with the potential of the student and everything to do with our school systems and other cultural forces. I'm surprised he didn't trot out the ridiculous brain-size theory.
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post #22 of 34
10/18/07 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
No, Z, that isn't what I meant at all. I don't think skin color has anything whatsoever to do with intelligence. I don't think that was the point that Bruce was trying to make.
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post #23 of 34
10/18/07 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
How Hitler-esk of him. I wonder if they ever take Nobel Prizes away?

Why would they want to take away his Nobel prize? Because he has an
un-PC, unpopular opinion that we all don't agree with?

How does that work?
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post #24 of 34
10/18/07 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
No, Z, that isn't what I meant at all. I don't think skin color has anything whatsoever to do with intelligence. I don't think that was the point that Bruce was trying to make.
No, I know the point was that a man who sort-of discovered the double helix structure of DNA being a racist is more qualified to make that judgement than Al Gore is to talk talk about global warming. I disagree.

But what is lurking under the surface of some of the posts is an idea that he could maybe be right. And that's the point I decided to address, rather than waste my breath about Al Gore.
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post #25 of 34
10/18/07 at 1:13pm
Thread Starter 
Oh, okay. I find it hard to believe that anyone would or could entertain the thought that something so innocuous as skin color (I mean, come on think about it) could have an influence on intelligence.

I don't get the feeling that anyone even remotely agrees with that assessment here.
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post #26 of 34
10/18/07 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
I disagree..
Cause is does not match the belief system that has been bulit up over the last few years. A system that been bulit up to the point that others who finding may show something different are scared to speak up. its almost like its becoming a Religion.

lol your right ckblv i dont think anyone agrees with watson here, or even if they did would they post?
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post #27 of 34
10/18/07 at 5:03pm
Watson and Crick are not all they are cracked up to be to begin with. They did not discover the double helix on their own. At the same time they were trying to to unravel this mystery, there was a french female scientist also working on the project and she started to discover some clues. They broke into her lab and stole her work to fit the pieces together to unravel the double helix. They get the nobe peace prize, but they didn't give her one because she was female.
I don't like other people taking credit for something they didn't do. Just because they win a nobel peace prize, does not mean they are all knowing. I don't think that skin color determines intelligence, but I think it can hinder educational opportunities. It all depends on the socioeconomic status of the family and the opportunities presented to that individual. Education is the most important tool in a person's life and if that opportunity isn't available, than it is often viewed as a lack of intelligence. There are many times when the meaning of education and intelligence are often confused. If someone does not have the opportunity to advance and grow as a person, then what could possibly motivate them to better themselves in the eyes of others?
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post #28 of 34
10/19/07 at 7:03am
I'm going to go ahead and call senility on this one... he's retracted his statement, saying that he is horrified those quotes have been attributed to him (and we aren't talking about the Enquirer here!) but he's also said that women who are pregnant should get an abortion if they find out they have the "gay gene" and that there's a link between skin color and "sexual prowess".

Since he didn't say anything like it until recently, either in his old age he just doesn't care anymore, or he's not all there. Anyway, you can read the story I got this from/see a picture of him here
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post #29 of 34
10/19/07 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker View Post
I don't think black people are less intelligent, anymore than I think Asian people are MORE intelligent than white people.

I think that because a lot of African American people didn't grow up with the same advantages as white people, they may not test as well in some area's. However, that is by no means a sign of intelligence or lack of. You take a white person growing up in poverty, with parents who didn't put any emphasis on education or learning and that white person will test just as badly as a black person brought up in the same situation, and a black person raised by someone like Bill Cosby for example would probably test better than most people. I think it all depends on how you're brought up, and how many advantages you were given growing up.

I think it's really racist to even suggest that black people are less intelligent. Some people are graced with a higher IQ than other people and it doesn't matter what race they are.

I was just coming to post something similar, but why reinvent the wheel? You said pretty much everything I wanted to address
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post #30 of 34
10/19/07 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
or a politician to explain global warming

but at least in watson case he studies DNA, he should have a better idea how that effects growth

and well as someone pointed out, Watson won the Nobel Peace Prize so oh my god it has to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess15 View Post
Watson and Crick are not all they are cracked up to be to begin with. They did not discover the double helix on their own. At the same time they were trying to to unravel this mystery, there was a french female scientist also working on the project and she started to discover some clues. They broke into her lab and stole her work to fit the pieces together to unravel the double helix. They get the nobe peace prize, but they didn't give her one because she was female.
I don't like other people taking credit for something they didn't do. Just because they win a nobel peace prize, does not mean they are all knowing.
Just to clear up a misconception, the Nobel Peace Prize is just one of six Nobel prizes awarded: http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...l+prize&gwp=13
Quote:
Since 1901, prizes have been awarded for physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature, and peace; since 1969, a sixth prize, established by the Bank of Sweden, has been awarded in economic sciences
Watson and Crick got a Nobel prize in medicine.

ETA: He's been suspended: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/19/uk.race/
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