TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › When rescue organizations go too far
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

When rescue organizations go too far - Page 4  

post #91 of 203
I agree about the Komondor, what a sad situation.

My understanding, from reading the news accounts, is the the rescue has a policy of not adopting to families with children under age 14. I have no clue where they came up with this age, but that is their policy. Unfortunately, we all know parents who don't teach their children the proper respect for animals. The rescue's job is to protect the animals and this is part of the criteria they set up to try to protect them.

A no win situation for everyone.
post #92 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werebear View Post
In this blog post Ellen Degeneres tells the sad tale of a shelter taking a dog away from children. Yes, strictly speaking, she broke the contract she signed when she originally adopted the dog, but when he didn't work out, she found him a good home.

She did the responsible thing, the right thing.

But she hired trainers and made a good faith attempt, and it obviously did not work.

?

Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't the first time Ellen has adopted a pet, then decided it didn't work out, then re-homed it. Regardless of celebrity status, I don't think it is okay to break contracts with rescues. How long did she have this dog anyway? How long was the good faith attempt? I know it took months for one of my dogs to be okay around cats.

And how do we know she really found the dog a good home? We don't. We only know her side since she has the mass media available to her for whatever she deems fit.

I agree with mom of 4, no win for anyone.
post #93 of 203
i am glad the dog has a good home, lets face it, that is the important thing, and while the rescue may have gone around things the wrong way, they had their reasons for doing it, and as there isn't anyone from the rescue to defend them, maybe we should stop persecuting them for it, none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes, but they have to put the animals needs first, as do all rescues, and every rescue has to say no to people that get annoyed about it.
As for elderly people, we do adopt to those, but there are checks done to make sure that there is someone willing to care for the cat in case something happens, and also to help with buying food and litter, and getting the cat to the vets.
And for early spay/neuter, yes, I would love to see it happen, but we have to work with what we have, and I would like to see the person who says we should keep everything until they are neutered have to deal with that situation - every single kitten would have to be kept till 5 months old, which would mean a lot more cost (in food and litter, as we pay for the neutering regardless), harder to home them, and most importantly, means we can't help as many cats, as we would constantly be full with cats that are perfectly adoptable apart from being unspayed, and realistically, as we are a rescue environment rather than a home environment, it isn't best for the kittens welfare.
post #94 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by booktigger View Post
i am glad the dog has a good home, lets face it, that is the important thing, and while the rescue may have gone around things the wrong way, they had their reasons for doing it, and as there isn't anyone from the rescue to defend them, maybe we should stop persecuting them for it, none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes, but they have to put the animals needs first, as do all rescues, and every rescue has to say no to people that get annoyed about it.
As for elderly people, we do adopt to those, but there are checks done to make sure that there is someone willing to care for the cat in case something happens, and also to help with buying food and litter, and getting the cat to the vets.
And for early spay/neuter, yes, I would love to see it happen, but we have to work with what we have, and I would like to see the person who says we should keep everything until they are neutered have to deal with that situation - every single kitten would have to be kept till 5 months old, which would mean a lot more cost (in food and litter, as we pay for the neutering regardless), harder to home them, and most importantly, means we can't help as many cats, as we would constantly be full with cats that are perfectly adoptable apart from being unspayed, and realistically, as we are a rescue environment rather than a home environment, it isn't best for the kittens welfare.


The most important thing is the dog's welfare, and that it is placed with a suitable family. There seem to have been faults on all sides but I'm not keen on what appears to be an attempt at emotional blackmail by Ellen. If she's so concerned about those children losing the dog she should have been a bit more careful when she gave the dog to the family. If she'd just read her contract, or even contacted the rescue about the problems she was having intergrating the dog into her household, this mess could have been avoided.
post #95 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
Dogs are not children. You can't sell or buy a child-and you will go to jail if you do. You can sell or buy a puppy or a kitten. It's perfectly legal. And legally dogs are considered property. Same goes for cats. You can't be seriously comparing adoption of a child to that of a pet.
You didn't get my point. From a rescue organization's point of view, they don't care about the family or the humans, they act in strict interest of the pet. That's the hump a lot of people need to get over as many people spout animal rights, but if a dog is taken away from a family, then its considered abuse. IMO its just an oxy moran of animal activists.

Secondly I never knew that I could adopt a child for free. Hmm...maybe I should tell my brother that since he and his wife are spending close to $25000 to adopt a child right now. They are buying the child, they are adopting it. Just like rescue organizations adopt pets...they don't sell pets, they adopt the animals out.

Also, let's not even get into foster child adoptions. There are ALL SORTS of fees that go on there and if a family gave up (not sell) that foster child to a different family, that first family could wind up with either heavy fines or in jail for doing that without the foster care or state's knowledge.
post #96 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
You didn't get my point. From a rescue organization's point of view, they don't care about the family or the humans, they act in strict interest of the pet. That's the hump a lot of people need to get over as many people spout animal rights, but if a dog is taken away from a family, then its considered abuse. IMO its just an oxy moran of animal activists.

Secondly I never knew that I could adopt a child for free. Hmm...maybe I should tell my brother that since he and his wife are spending close to $25000 to adopt a child right now. They are buying the child, they are adopting it. Just like rescue organizations adopt pets...they don't sell pets, they adopt the animals out.

Also, let's not even get into foster child adoptions. There are ALL SORTS of fees that go on there and if a family gave up (not sell) that foster child to a different family, that first family could wind up with either heavy fines or in jail for doing that without the foster care or state's knowledge.
I can go into a pet store today (there is one that sells pets close to me) and buy a kitten. Or a puppy. No questions asked, as long as I have the money. Somehow I doubt I could buy a child today.
Seriously.
post #97 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by cococat View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't the first time Ellen has adopted a pet, then decided it didn't work out, then re-homed it. Regardless of celebrity status, I don't think it is okay to break contracts with rescues. How long did she have this dog anyway? How long was the good faith attempt? I know it took months for one of my dogs to be okay around cats.

And how do we know she really found the dog a good home? We don't. We only know her side since she has the mass media available to her for whatever she deems fit.

I agree with mom of 4, no win for anyone.
I can see easily the dog and the cat never getting along. When we brough home the puppy the cat kept beating that puppy up.
As for how we know it was a good home, the interviewes are on TMZ. The home had a yard for the dog to play and another dog for the dog to play with.
The child was talking about her dog and how that dog was taking away from the child.
I hope somebody buys that poor child another dog.
post #98 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
I can go into a pet store today (there is one that sells pets close to me) and buy a kitten. Or a puppy. No questions asked, as long as I have the money. Somehow I doubt I could buy a child today.
Seriously.
But this thread is not about pet stores...it's about rescues and shelters. There is a difference. A pet store will just take your money and will care less then what happens to the animal afterwards.

A rescue or shelter will take the time to figure out if you're a fit with the animal, run a check on you and your family, and provide you with papers and contracts that you need to sign before you're able to take the animal home.

Another difference is that you don't find rescues or shelters at the mall. Only pet stores. If you go to Petsmart or Petco to adopt a cat or dog you are not buying from the petstore, you are adopting from a rescue or shelter.

Yea. Seriously.
post #99 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
I can see easily the dog and the cat never getting along. When we brough home the puppy the cat kept beating that puppy up.
As for how we know it was a good home, the interviewes are on TMZ. The home had a yard for the dog to play and another dog for the dog to play with.
The child was talking about her dog and how that dog was taking away from the child.
I hope somebody buys that poor child another dog.

Yeh...but you can have a prestine fence, wonderful family etc. etc. doesn't mean that that home is a good match for that dog. If the rescue has a policy of not adopting to anyone with children under a certain age, there is usually a good reason. Our rescue gets small puppies that we do not place with young children oftentimes due to the temperment of the puppy. What would you have said had the puppy bit the child? Who would ultimately have been responsible? Ellen or the rescue group? Think about it.

As to your comment regarding getting a puppy from a pet store...sure you can go ahead and do that..this is a free country....but just remember, the petstore purpose is simply to sell the puppy and if something doesn't work out..they aren't going to take it back.

I also agree that we should simply be happy that the puppy is now in a new home.

Katie
post #100 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werebear View Post
This is about the limits of idealism. And how the best intentions can wind up having the opposite effect.

In this blog post Ellen Degeneres tells the sad tale of a shelter taking a dog away from children. Yes, strictly speaking, she broke the contract she signed when she originally adopted the dog, but when he didn't work out, she found him a good home.

And that's the point. She did the responsible thing, the right thing.

I don't see too many places in this story where the shelter did the right thing. I'm sure they do good work, but maybe not in the best way.

First of all, seeing the dog and hearing the story on television, I discover that we are dealing with a couple with cats who adopt what looks like a terrier mix. I would never have let her adopt this dog in her circumstances. Terriers were bred to chase down and kill rats. So they are terrier terrors in a home with cats, seeing them, as they can't help but do, as prey. If someone is home all the time to enforce issues with the dog it can work. But she hired trainers and made a good faith attempt, and it obviously did not work.

Secondly, I know from experience how difficult it is to return a dog to the shelter when they don't work out. It would be the last thing I would think of under the circumstances. I would do what Ms. Degeneres did; try to find the dog a good home. She successfully did that.

Even so, there isn't any reason the shelter can't evaluate the dog's new home and not take the dog away unless there was a compelling reason to do so. Which they did not do. It was a brick wall; breach the contract, they take the dog.

This is the opposite of their ostensible mission; which is to get the poor dog a home. It's not doing him any good sticking him back in the shelter. Those are orphanages for dogs; necessary, but not anything more than a stopgap.

It appears they love their rules, their ideals, more than they love dogs. It's supposed to be about the dogs, first.

That's the trap of idealism; it's great to have principles, but living things are not supposed to be ground between immovable objects. The point of principles is to provide a moral framework for the treatment of living things. If living things are being hurt for a principle, then the principle is at fault.

The worst story I ever hear about this came from a shelter who had adopted the position that pets were not slaves, and they should not go to homes where they would be put to work. I disagree with this position anyway; I love the Working Group. These dogs need jobs. There's nothing wrong with them contributing.

But this "pethood is slavery" position hit a decision point when they acquired a Komondor. This is the huge, dreadlocked, Hungarian flock guard dog. There's not too many people up for this kind of challenge, but someone stepped up; a farmer who wanted the dog as a livestock guard.

The shelter wouldn't let him go as a worker. So, when his time was up, they euthanized the Komondor.

This still gives me chills to think about. For an ostensibly humane organization to decide the dog, according to their ideals, isn't supposed to perform the job he has been painstakingly bred for. That's it's better to kill him than to let him get a home.

That's the kind of rigid, dogmatic, ultimately inhumane thinking the Degeneres story reminds me of. It's not about the dog, is it? It's about the shelter enforcing their rules, and forgetting what those rules were about.

They should be ashamed of themselves. But dogmatists, clinging to their rules, never consider that.

So just how humanitarian are they?

GREAT post, you should go over the Petfinder and copy-paste this in the Ellen thread.
post #101 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
I got my cats from breeders. At least based on this story, it seems to me that getting a pet from a rescue is more trouble than it's worth. By the way I just watched it on TMZ-the family of Iggy did call the police, and police let the rescue woman to take the dog because apparently the dog was microchipped and rescue's name was on that microchip.
The rescue woman went to Iggy's new home and took that dog and police was called there and let her do it.
WOW, we are talking about ONE rescue here. Mutts and Moms mistake and poor handling of this case would NEVER make me even CONSIDER going to a breeder. But, I want to give homeless animals homes.
Go to shelter, Humane Society, another rescue with less stringent rules.
post #102 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
I think the best scenerio to think of this is much like child adoptions. Say instead of a dog, this was a baby or toddler. I'm sure that peoples opinions here would be VERY different if an adoption agency were to find out that someone who adopted a child gave it up to another family who wanted a child. If the adoption agency finds out do you think they would just leave the child there while the agency conducts a background check on the family? No Way!

My point is that the rescue organization is acting not only on their legal contract, but they are acting in the BEST interest of the animal, not the humans.

I agree with this also.
I don't know about you guys but I have mixed emotions on the Ellen thing.
I see both sides so much.
post #103 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werebear View Post
This is about the limits of idealism. And how the best intentions can wind up having the opposite effect.
Thanks for bringing this post back to the attention of the thread, ckblv. I love what Were had to say about it. Great great post!
post #104 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
I can see easily the dog and the cat never getting along. When we brough home the puppy the cat kept beating that puppy up.
As for how we know it was a good home, the interviewes are on TMZ. The home had a yard for the dog to play and another dog for the dog to play with.
The child was talking about her dog and how that dog was taking away from the child.
I hope somebody buys that poor child another dog.

Then WHY did Ellen get that puppy in the first place?
She is a serial dog-dumper. This is the 2nd time she has dumped a dog.

Just because the hairdressers yard had a fence and they had another dog for the puppy to play with does NOT mean it was a good home IMO. Maybe it was a good home, I don't know, but there is much more to a good home than a fence and another dog.

Watch Bill O'Reilly tonight, I heard he is getting the hairdresser's kids another dog.
post #105 of 203
I heard on the radio this morning that the reason why the rescue had that clause in their contract was because they had too many adoptions that didn't work out and the family euthanized the pet instead of finding it a new home.

I'm really glad to hear that the rescue has found the dog a new home.

That's nice of Bill O'Reilly to go to the lengths of getting the hairdresser's family a new dog, but if they really enjoy a dog that much why are they dependent on people finding them a dog...why can't they go out to a couple of rescues/shelters and interact with different dogs themselves?
post #106 of 203
The family does not want a different dog. They fell in love with Iggy. I have been seeing these comments on other boards not sure if they are true

1.M&M LICENSE is SUSPENDED before all this
2.M&M BROKE THEIR OWN CONTRACT
3.M&M STOLE IGGY
4.M&M NOT Registered w Attorney General's Registry of Charitable Trusts

1) CA law REQUIRES that animals be spayed/neutered BEFORE being placed. The Vincent Law (AB 1856) (signed into law by Governor Pete Wilson in 1998) requires that all animals adopted from a public or private shelter be spayed or neutered prior to release from the shelter.

2) M&M is not registered with the Attorney General's Registry of Charitable Trusts SO that means they pay taxes and make a profit!

3) Their CA business license is SUSPENDED (before all this media) Check for yourself at
California SEcretary of State- Business Portal
CLick on the left...California Business Search
then type in Mutts and Moms.
I'd give the actual link, but not sure they allow links on here.

4) They did NOT do a home inspection of Ellen and Portia's house before placing...in THEIR contract that M&M must do. M&M broke their CONTRACT
post #107 of 203
Well, it is all water under the bridge now. The family is NOT getting the Iggy back, he has already been placed into another home

And rescue's are NOT required to be non-profit.

I sure wish that were true about the California Law requiring all rescue's and shelter dogs to be neutered before placement, I really do.
post #108 of 203
This is another one of those news stories that makes me cringe. Like the cat thief thread, this is going to give reputable rescues a black eye. Backlash is already hitting just by reading people opinions. Not Good.

What Kitytize has said seems to proving true. There are some things about this "rescue" that are troublesome.

This puppy is a Brussels Griffon mix, a very rare breed. They "adopted" him out for a donation fee of $600.00. He was not neutered. A Brussels Griffon is not likely a breed that there are many bybs dealing with. A reputable breeder would have readily taken back a four month old puppy.

Just how did Mutts&Mom's acquire such a rare breed puppy to begin with? Even if it is a mix... a mill oops or potential new designer breed? Add to this their licensing issues and FOR profit status and things don't add up to what a reputable rescue does.

This type of scenario raises the question of Brokers posing as rescues, which seems to be becoming a growing issue.

I think both parties are at fault. However, M&M's actions are going to have the far reaching negative consequences on the entire rescue community.

Yuck, yuck, yuck all the way around on this one.
post #109 of 203
OK, I happen have the O'Reilly Factor on, and he has the Mutts & Moms attorney on as a guest.

Here's what Ellen isn't telling you, according to the attorney. They DID offer for the family to keep Iggy. All they had to do was fill out an adoption form to ensure that they were a fitting home for Iggy. THE FAMILY REFUSED TO DO IT. Why? Apparently because Ellen was going to take care of it for them. The attorney said he has the emails to back up this assertion that they refused to fill out the adoption papers for him. How bad did they want this dog, really? I mean come on...they had news camera there when the rescue came to take the dog back.
post #110 of 203
I understand the rules are for a reason. And Ellen admited she was wrong. It was an honest mistake. That being said... everyone knows Ellen is a big animal lover. She wouldn't have placed the dog if she didn't know he would be taken care of. I think the rescue could have accepted the appology and then had the family that had the dog, fill out a questionaire and keep the dog. I think they handled it poorly. I don't, however, think all rescues are bad. I don't know... maybe I just don't have enough experience with them.

Ok I just read Heidi's post. If it is true that the family refused to fill out the questionaire then that is their own fault. I still didn't like the way the spokesperson for the rescue delt with it and her attitude. It kinda sucked.
post #111 of 203
I've listened to what the family said on tmz. com
The mother and the child have described the on-line application. Neither one have said anything about refusing to fill them out.
They have also said the woman told them she was going to do a house check, then she came to the house and took the dog.
Listen to what the mother has to say about the on-line applications.
http://www.tmz.com/page/3/
She starts off right with it.
post #112 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
I've listened to what the family said on tmz. com
The mother and the child have described the on-line application. Neither one have said anything about refusing to fill them out.
They have also said the woman told them she was going to do a house check, then she came to the house and took the dog.
Listen to what the mother has to say about the on-line applications.
http://www.tmz.com/page/3/
She starts off right with it.
Does anyone expect anyone to badtalk themselves? Of COURSE they're going to make themselves appear the good guys!
post #113 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie_Dog View Post
Does anyone expect anyone to badtalk themselves? Of COURSE they're going to make themselves appear the good guys!
Are you saying this family aren't the good guys?
What did this family do wrong?
All they did is taken in the dog given to them by Ellen.
They had no contract with this rescue.
All they did is given a loving home to the dog that needed it.
post #114 of 203
I don't know if the family in question are "the good guys", I don't know them, do you?
The mother seemed pretty combative, but I can't say I wouldn't have been combative myself.

One thing I DID hear on the first tape on TMZ that was filmed Sunday night after Ellen and her GF got there, the hairdresser's daughter was very pitifully saying, "I just want my dog back" and Ellen in the background (listen carefully and you will hear) says "You WILL get your dog back".

Gave me the impression that she was saying, "I am Ellen and I am above the rules", well, she wasn't and she didn't get what she wanted. Deal with it, suck it up and move on. The girl has been offered numerous other dogs that look like Iggy but she "wants Iggy and only Iggy" Iggy is gone.
post #115 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't know if the family in question are "the good guys", I don't know them, do you?
The mother seemed pretty combative, but I can't say I wouldn't have been combative myself.

One thing I DID hear on the first tape on TMZ that was filmed Sunday night after Ellen and her GF got there, the hairdresser's daughter was very pitifully saying, "I just want my dog back" and Ellen in the background (listen carefully and you will hear) says "You WILL get your dog back".

Gave me the impression that she was saying, "I am Ellen and I am above the rules", well, she wasn't and she didn't get what she wanted. Deal with it, suck it up and move on. The girl has been offered numerous other dogs that look like Iggy but she "wants Iggy and only Iggy" Iggy is gone.
No, I don't know the family. But I've said that I don't see what it is they did wrong considering they had no contract with this rescue so they broke no rules. As for the child wanting Iggy and not other dogs.
She is a child. 11 -12 years old. What do you expect from the child?
If somebody took one of your cats and somebody else just said-suck it up, move on, deal with it, just get another one, I bet you would be upset? No? And you are an adult.
post #116 of 203
That dog was NEVER theirs to begin with, what is so hard for you to understand?

It was the rescues who adopted it out to Ellen's GF. They had no legal rights to that dog. Such is why the Police let M&M leave their house.
post #117 of 203
Ellen and her gf had the dog for a few WEEKS before they dumped it. The hairdresser's family had the dog 10 days. Please it was not that long.
Kids are resilient, she would get over it if people didn't just keep stirring the pot. She will get over it regardless becuse she is not getting the dog back.

Ellen and her GF are dog dumpers that need to realize their celebrity doesn't mean squat to every person in the world.
post #118 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
That dog was NEVER theirs to begin with, what is so hard for you to understand?

It was the rescues who adopted it out to Ellen's GF. They had no legal rights to that dog. Such is why the Police let M&M leave their house.
I don't know what's legal and what is not. Considering that according to the article below, the rescue group is suspended because they failed to file a document, so their contract with Ellen might be void.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21367733/
So in fact it appears the rescue itself wasn't that good in filing the documents, was it?
post #119 of 203
The dog is gone, it is over.
post #120 of 203
Since when do crying children negate the terms of legal contracts?

According to the lawyer, the family wouldn't fill out the necessary paperwork. Either way, the rescue would have been doing them a favor. They had no obligation to allow the dog to be rehomed, if they are to be believed.

With my two, I don't actually own them. According to the contract, I assumed possession and custody of them. That's it. This is a shelter that provides the municipal animal control services. They basically retain ownership of the animals they adopt out. It sounds like these people might have taken possession of a dog not actually owned by Ellen DeGeneres.

If that's not satisfactory, you can always deal with another organization. There are plenty of organizations I wouldn't do business with. If I were unfortunate enough to acquire an animal technically owned by one of them, I'd fill out their paperwork and hope for the best. I still don't think my discomfort is sufficient to deny them their property rights.

On the flip side, this is very bad publicity for rescue groups. People who might have been riding the fence certainly aren't going to be inclined to deal with a rescue group after seeing this debacle unfold on primetime television.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: IMO: In My Opinion
This thread is locked  
TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › When rescue organizations go too far